8th Edition and A Fist Full of Zeal

[Gendo]

Does it mean that a SB with 2 Claws attacks 5 times?

[Castellan Doren]

I was counting 3 with mine. 2 for base stats, +1 for 2xLC.

 

But these were the ones in crusader squads.

[balordazul]

I just wanted to point out that against everything except Quantum Shielding the Thunder Hammer will trumomthe Power Fist in final damage as it's a fixed 3 while the Power Fist is D3. The reason Quantum Shielding makes the difference is that the model gets to ignore the damage if it rolls under the damage being inflicted. So it has a 0/6 chance against a damage of 1, 1/6 against a damage of 2 and 2/6 against a damage of three while it always gets a 2/6 against the Thunderhammer's damage.

Right I did not point that out so thanks for adding this. Also it has been talked about already but I just wanted to point it out to every again is that Thunder hammers are the same cost as Power Fists for the base line units. I feel like something could change on the points as you will always go for a Thunder hammer over a power first.

Gaaah too many numbers! Just tell me which shiny purple thing to smash/stab/poke/cleave with!

Lightning claws for MEQ and worst, Thunder Hammer for anything else. I guess I'll take a sword then.

The other side of the coin is efficiency and something I have not worked out a good formula yet. Also, you need to balance efficiency with need.

So first lets take a look at efficiency.

Lightning claw does show us some great numbers but they do have a downside. I can either add one lighting claw or give two models power swords with one point left over. Alternately for one Thunder Hammer that is five models with power swords or four power axes or two lightning claws.

Now for the balance of efficiency with need. Sometimes we really need to just hit something very hard. We like the "BIG NUMBERS" but that is not always needed. Use the tools to get the job done and pair the right model with the right tool. The solo Initiate gets the most bang out of a Power Axe but even having a Power Sword is fine also. Vet Company Sword Brethren Sgt. should have a Thunder Hammer as that model has 3 attacks getting the most out of this weapon over the Crusader Sword Brethren or Initiate.

The key take away here is get as many bodies as you can equipped with at least cheap power weapon than go back and get models with more than one attack better weapons. But try not to bloat your force with expensive weapons as you do need bodies on the table to win the game and to take damage.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

LOL!

 

This is the reason why I don't ponder too much in the math or the stat of things... 50% rule of cool + 25% logic + 25% of everything else is usually what I go for when equipping my squad...

I mean, I don't usually play tournament games, and in the end it usually just boils down on if I could reach my enemies before he runs away or captures the last objective is what happens on my games... as for efficiency, I usually just go for what's the most logical weapon to use against the said enemy...

[Lysere]

Something to keep in mind if you plan on using the squad with Grimaldus, the -1 To hit on some weapons makes it impossible to roll a 6+ to hit thus not getting the bonus attacks from his aura. So Grimaldus leads the horde killer and Helbrecht gets the elite killers.

 

Relic blades and power swords with the both of them nearby will of course be terrifying.

[balordazul]

Something to keep in mind if you plan on using the squad with Grimaldus, the -1 To hit on some weapons makes it impossible to roll a 6+ to hit thus not getting the bonus attacks from his aura. So Grimaldus leads the horde killer and Helbrecht gets the elite killers.

 

Relic blades and power swords with the both of them nearby will of course be terrifying.

I think you are looking at that wrong, it changes you to roll needed not the dice roll.  

 

The data sheet has a 3+ to hit with a power fist (-1 to hit) and the Nurgle spell (-1 to hit) you are at (-2 to hit) changing the value to hit from a 3+ to a 5+.

 

When you roll a dice to hit with Grimaldus and roll a 6 it adds that extra attack.   I don't see anything that is going to take us beyond 6+ plus to hit at this point unless someone else can stack another -2 hit on top of the power fist and the Nurgle spell to make it a 7+.

[Kastor Krieg]

Yes, Grimaldus' buff works on a so-called "natural 6", what's on the die rolled, not the summary result of the roll +- modifiers.

[Lysere]

Yes, Grimaldus' buff works on a so-called "natural 6", what's on the die rolled, not the summary result of the roll +- modifiers.

Actually it clearly states it works on a 6+, not a 6. Given everything else I've seen I feel it's clearly meant to not work if you have negative modifiers but will trigger more easily on positive modifiers. Unless they faq I will probably play it that way.

 

Not that I'll have many hammers and such near Grimaldus, those will probably be off doing their own thing most of the time.

[balordazul]

Wow relic blades are crap for the cost bing one more point than a power fist and thunder hammer.  How much did they run in the last codes?  

 

Also what do you all think is it a issue on testing or something was over looked that they made Power Fists and Thunder hammers being the same cost and Thunder hammer being the auto pick?  oooops?

 

Most likely they will need to do a point adjustment or restrict thunder hammers again as a game balance.

[Acebaur]

Modifiers change characteristics though, it dice rolls. When you swing with a TH it changes your to hit roll from a 3+ to a 4+. It does not change your 6 dice roll to a 5.

 

Also the side bar that talks about modifiers talks about characteristics, not dice.

 

As for the relic blade, yeah I feel like it's a tad expensive, maybe like 15 points would be perfect

[balordazul]

Ya Acebaur that seems about right as I feel like that weapon might have been over looked as it has such a low access point in the game.  

[BitsHammer]

Relic Blades should have two different points costs as the effect of a Captain versus a Vet having it are majorly different,

[Lysere]

Wow relic blades are crap for the cost bing one more point than a power fist and thunder hammer. How much did they run in the last codes?

 

Also what do you all think is it a issue on testing or something was over looked that they made Power Fists and Thunder hammers being the same cost and Thunder hammer being the auto pick? oooops?

 

Most likely they will need to do a point adjustment or restrict thunder hammers again as a game balance.

Relic blade is a fist without the penalty to hit and slightly less strength. Against a lot of targets it'll still work quite well but it's not automatically the best choice either.

 

If you fight a lot of t3 though it's way better than the fist.

 

Modifiers change characteristics though, it dice rolls. When you swing with a TH it changes your to hit roll from a 3+ to a 4+. It does not change your 6 dice roll to a 5.

 

Also the side bar that talks about modifiers talks about characteristics, not dice.

 

As for the relic blade, yeah I feel like it's a tad expensive, maybe like 15 points would be perfect

The box isn't talking about modifiers in general though, but what to do if a characteristic is modified. No where did I see anything that explained how to handle a to hit modifier. After all you don't reduce your WS stat for using a hammer, you just subtract one from the roll itself.

[BitsHammer]

If it was cheaper I'd consider it as a buffed power sword, but it lacks too much.

 

That said the Gravs Captain gets one that is Master Crafted and does 2DMG which looks pretty good.

[Firepower]

Well for the price of a Relic Blade in a Vanguard squad, you could take 3 plasma pistols...hmmm.  Big honkin sword, three glowy face melters..  Not an easy decision.

 

On that topic, does re-roll to hit negate rolling a 1 on Supercharge (assuming you don't roll 1 on the re-roll)?

[BitsHammer]

Rerolls always negate the result of the first roll, so yes.

[Firepower]

3 Pistols it is then. :)

[T-Rock]

Does anyone have any thoughts on honor guard vs. company veterans for Grimaldus/Helbrecht retinue? There are pros and cons for each. 

 

Honor Guard: 21 points

• Two models per unit
• 2+ save
• 2 wounds
• 2 attacks each
• Boltgun & Bolt pistol

vs. 

 

Company Veterans: 16 pts per model

• 2-5 models per unit
• 3+ save
• 2 attacks each (3 on veteran sergeant) 

 

Of course, stat wise, honorguard are superior, but is the 2+ and extra wound worth it? I'm planning on sticking them in an LRC with a crusader squad and HQ (as I believe Acebaur mentioned), to give them some extra kick. Due to the cost and squad numbers, I could generate more attacking output with company veterans, but I lose some staying power and the chance to rapid fire before I charge, and the HGs baked in cost for access to power weapons.  

[balordazul]

To be honest they are both good but do different things.  Honor Guards really fall under the idea of guards as they a meat shields with the extra wound, 2+ save and wound transfer rule.  The biggest draw back for them is that they can not take Thunder hammers, combi weapons, or pistols aka the lack of the ability to kit them the way you would like.  If you are running them with Helbretch take a Power Axe or Power Sword for the best return and consider an Apothecary.  

 

The Vet Sword Brethren Company is a good price at only 3 points more than a crusader for one extra attack.  If they are with Helbretch the re-roll for ranged and melee has you buying combi weapons a mix of Plasma and Melta imo as I do not like flamers in this edition so far.  I have not gotten the chance to do a break down on % wound chance on ranged weapons at this point.  Also with the re-roll to hit you can super charge your plasma and  chance the double tap without firing the bolster when needed.

 

I don't see the point in buying Storm Shields as you will lose one of the weapon slots and I feel like cheap efficient attacks that will not modify your armor save will be killing most of our guys.   Except to see lots of hordes this edition Orks, Nids, IG. 

 

I plan on working out a Vet company build here in the next few days with an elite comparison between Vet Company, Termies, and Assault Centurions.  

[T-Rock]

Behold! My first list. This is just from a night of tinkering, but here is a mock up and some thoughts on potential tactics. Please offer any feedback you see fit! I'm sure it's not fully optimized, but I've been mathhammering all night and want input before I continue. I've structured it how I imagine it'll play. I figured it could serve as a framework to discuss some of the combos we've seen mentioned in the thread. 

 

(Note: I couldn't be arsed to do it on the app, but this is arranged to fit in to an Batallion Detachment and a Vanguard Detachment for 4 command points. I'll also need to split my crusader squad in half)

 

 

 

HQ

 

  High Marshal Helbrecht (1) - 170pts

    1 High Marshal Helbrecht: Sword of the High Marshals,Combi-melta

 

  The Emperor's Champion (1) - 108pts

    1 The Emperor's Champion: Black Sword,Bolt pistol

 

  Captain (1) - 126pts

    1 Captain: Combi-flamer,Thunder hammer,Jump Pack

 

Troops

 

  Crusader Squad (11) - 153pts (In LRC)

    1 Sword Brother: Bolt pistol,Thunder hammer

    5 Initiate: Bolt pistol,Boltgun

    5 Neophyte: Bolt pistol,Boltgun

 

  Crusader Squad (5) - 105pts (In Drop Pod)

    3 Initiate: Bolt pistol,Boltgun

    1 Initiate: Bolt pistol,Grav-gun

    1 Initiate: Bolt pistol,Missile launcher

 

Elites

 

  Apothecary (1) - 55pts

    1 Apothecary: Chainsword,Bolt pistol

 

  Vanguard Veteran Squad (10) - 248pts

 

    1 Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm Shield, Jump Pack

    9 Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword,Plasma Pistol,Jump Pack

 

  Honour Guard (2) - 52pts

    2 Honour Guard: Bolt pistol,Boltgun,Power axe

 

  Honour Guard (2) - 52pts

    2 Honour Guard: Bolt pistol,Boltgun,Power axe

 

Heavy

 

  Devastator Squad (5) - 175pts (In Drop Pod)

    1 Sergeant: Bolt pistol,Boltgun

    2 Space Marine: Bolt pistol,Grav-cannon and grav-amp

    2 Space Marine: Bolt pistol,Multi-melta

 

  Land Raider Crusader (1) - 287pts

    1 Land Raider Crusader: Twin assault cannon,2 Hurricane bolters

 

Fast Attack

 

  Stormtalon Gunship (1) - 195pts

    1 Stormtalon Gunship: Two lascannons,Twin assault cannon

 

  Stormtalon Gunship (1) - 165pts

    1 Stormtalon Gunship: Two heavy bolters,Twin assault cannon

 

  Drop pod (1) - 108pts

    1 Drop pod: Deathwind launcher

 

Total: 1999

 

 

 

 

The Alpha Strike

• Alpha strike is balanced for hordes or vehicles. Two Multi-Meltas at melta range should put a hurting on high wound vehicles and creatures. Grav can take care of heavy infantry, and the two rocket launchers can handle both decently well.
• This is accompanied by 10 vanguard veterans and a jump pack castellan (allowing rerolls of 1). ALL of these suckers have plasma pistols that I'll super charge. Combined with the aforementioned drop pod crusaders, this is going to wreck some face. I plan on using a command die here if I have to in order to *hopefully* ensure they make it in combat. After the initial smoke clears from the plasma, they'll be doing 30 attacks, plus 4 thunderhammer swings from the captain if there's a character or creature lurking around. Rerolling 1s to hit, of course! 

Land Raider Smash

• Meanwhile, my LRC is moving up the board at a 10" clip, hopefully getting in to rapid fire range. Assuming he does, that is 24 hurricane bolter shots and 12 assault cannon shots. 
• Inside is Helbrecht and the Emperor's Champion. They and their crusader/honor guard buddies will be pointed towards whatever scares me most. If they need to break off, The Emperor's Champion and Honor Guard will monster/character hunt (EC with Black Sword, Monster/Char buff, and Helbrecht buff will be freaking strength 8 with 5 attacks, rerolling hits and wounds for d3 damage!) and the crusaders will dump attacks in to hordes with Helbrecht d3 extra attacks on the charge. Between all the bodies, apothecary, and Honor Guard, hopefully they'll have some staying power

Death From Above 

• These puppies will hopefully make up for my lack of maneuverability. Considering their combined 24 assault cannon shots, 6 heavy bolter shots, and 2 lascannon shots, they are equipped to mop up stray hordes, vehicles, or MCs. They are fast, flexible, and will zoom towards whichever contingent of my army needs support. 

 

Thoughts? Comments? Concerns? 40ish marines on the board, the majority of which having chain swords, an LRC, Helbrecht, the Emperor's Champion, all in one list got me feeling some kind of way! Admittedly, I'm concerned about staying power after my initial charge, whether I did a poor job optimizing weapons, and my ability to grab objectives late game, but it's a start.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Hmm I like the list though I do wonder if redundancy on the LRC is needed. I'm not a 100% on those honor guard as I'm not sure if it might be better to use foot vanguard or company vets.

 

I would suggest you change the other stomtalon to either a typhoon or a lascannon though as I believe you have enough anti infantry in the list.

[T-Rock]

You're right on the storm talon. It's expensive, but I went with a typhoon launcher for the other one. It's pretty strong vs. high toughness, but can also grant 2d6 against hordes. I like the flexibility. All I had to drop was a combi-flamer (out of range after deepstrike) and a grav gun.

 

As for Honor Guard, I feel like they grant a little more staying power than the other two options. In my three games, crusaders got chipped away pretty quickly after the initial charge, so having some extra wounds that can be healed by the apothecary seemed helpful. Also, with the limited space in the LRC, I wanted to ensure I got as much bang for my buck as I could for the models inside.