8th Ed BA Tactica.

[Quixus]

I feel that ou Chapter Champion is the Sanguinor , not boring at all 

But only for the 1st founding chapter. Unless there are as many Sanguinors as there are chapters of Sanguinius's lineage.

[OrbOfAntioch]

Since I'm at the DMV and I'll be at the DMV for years I'll post some experiences from my last 2 games.

 

Units Employed:

Death Company w/JP + various loadouts

Lemartes

Storm Raven

DC Dread

Scouts

 

Opponent: Tzeench

-Magnus, Lord of Change

-Units with flamers large and small with keyword FLY

-Those sheep men

-Changeling, etc.

 

Experience:

-Charging with small units out of deepstrike, even with Lemartes, is unreliable. Even if you make the charge, you do not inflict enough damage, and will be heavily damaged/wiped in the enemy's phase. Fly units that are psykers can fall back, smite, and then shoot you. It hurts.

 

-JP DC w/ all plasma pistols + Chainswords is a nice assassination unit. For 27pts it is not too expensive, can pack a punch in shooting, and possibly theeaten a charge. You could ostensibly shoot at a MC and then charge a blob. If the enemy deploys close, you could run up lemartes to be within 6" of the DS DC, grant them the reroll, and command point it to ensure a high likelyhood of charge. Just make sure you charge a unit with the recognition that it will probably survive and fall back, thus put emphasis on the utility of whether that fall back is advantageous for you. In other words, don't deepstrike charge FLY keywords if you can't kill them.

 

-Stormraven with Dakka loadout packs a punch, and is a good delivery platform for Dreads as usuall. However, Smite HURTS. Position yourself in a way so that you protect your SR (Smite only hits closest enemy tatget). Magnus/Lord of Change, rolling 10+ warp charges gives them 2D6 mortal wounds, and it hurts. It really bothers me that Mortal Wounds just ignore all saves, like the old stomp.

 

-DC isn't the powerhouse it was, as we've known for a while. The 6+ "fnp" basically does nothing; in other words, andthing with -1AP really wreck them, and lots of things have -1AP. In otherwords, make them cheap. They are still nice on charge against blobs, but as others have already stressed, VV or SG are probably better for specialized tasks. All purpose DC is dead.

 

-Souts are great. Not just as a tax. Its good as a unit. Camp objectives while sniping characters and dealing Mortal Wounds for 15pts is a good deal.

 

-D3/6 overwatch autohits in the form of 3+ flamers really hurt. Which brings me to wonder about CC as a solution to everything. The opportunity cost of charging small flamer units is not worth it, and yet you can't leave them alone. Prioritize your shooting to compliment your combat unit's survivability.

[Are Verlo]

 

 

It´s no worse than starting on the table

trust me it is. if you play vs an army with melee stuff, your risking losing the deep striking DC, and unlike lets say terminators your not pumping 4 shots per each dude. Very risky even against shoty armies.

 

I see there are situations where DS might be worse than deploying. If the enemy deploys in a line a rushes at you at high speed this will result in turn 1 DS forced to make long charges IF your plan is to shoot and then assault. An other situation is when scouts, ratlings, sentinels and so on, deny you any good landing spots for the DS.

 

When fighting an enemy who is not denying you landing spots you can always DS to the exact spot deploying normaly and moving would place you. Or if possible you can fint a better spot.

 

When considering the 6 different deployment maps some of these will make it easier for enemies to deny good landing spots and some of them makes it harder for enemies to control the board. One of these will be Search and Destroy.

 

An other advantage of placing units in reserves is during deployment. This will force enemies to make placments unless they too can place units in reserves. Deployment options is always nice. 

 

A know i was making broad swipes claming you can always gain an advantage not deploying turn 1, but i think you are underselling the advantages it might give you.

 

Edit: Landing in woods, craters or battlescape will give both +1 cover and enemies charging you will have a -2 penalty to the charge move. This *might* be of great value when DS´ing bolter DC. They get +1 cover save and make charges harder. Just to add some detalis I prefer to DS at ranges 15" - 24" depending on nearby enemy models and available terrain. 10 DC with JP, bolter and chainsword has a cost of 200 pts and is one of the most efficient DC setups I can see. They are used as anti horde. Anti elite/MC/vehicle can be done better by JP VVs. But few units shred boyz, guard and nids as efficient as bolter/chainsword JP DC

Edited June 20, 2017 by Are Verlo

[Drunken Angel]

Jeske and OrbofAntioch are right, so much dies so easily in 8th Ed if left in the open.  There are so many weapons out there that reduce our armour save to a 4 or a 5.  A good opponent will have units in those ruins etc to stop you landing in them.   Unless you take Lemartes for re-rolls or are prepared to sacrifice some command points to re-roll that charge is looking doubtful.  A 6+ FNP is near useless nothing lives long in the open. 

[Are Verlo]

Seems like people are misunderstanding what I try to communicate. My point is exactly the opposite of what you say. I' dont want to fish for charging out of deep strike.

 

I advocate using DS as a manouver to set up for action next turn.

 

And the point that things die easily is not connected to this issue. A DC unit deployed at the start dies just as easy as one arrivig from reserves.

When deployed normaly your opponent knows very well what to counter deploy. You can use JPA do do an refused flank, you can land out of range, you can land out of sight, you can land on objectives in maelstrom.

 

And you can land where you need to reinforce your attack. We can only place half our units in reserve so we will have units that can deploy in sweet spots and if the enemy have as you said claimed all the runins/woods/battlescapes outside the deployment zones, then these units are spread out, unsupported and possible targets for normal turn 1 assaults.

[Ushtarador]

Agree with Are, placing as many units as possible in deep strike will always be superior to placing them on the table. It's essentially allows you to deploy the unit (almost) anywhere on the table as opposed to your deployment zone, and it allows you to react to your opponents deployment. Especially if your army is built for having first turn, this is a very strong tactic.

[Jolemai]

I'm all ears for advice in this. Anyone who persisted with Deep Striking a DCD last edition will know how difficult it is.

[durdle-durdle]

Another good thing is putting deep striking units in reserves forces your opponent to deploy first. Unless they also have heavy reserves, you can put 4-5 units in reserves while they put the first half of their army on the board. This allows you to set up the remainder of your units already knowing where most of their stuff is and use your reserves to reinforce different areas.

[Charlo]

Lemartes and a few DCD with Magna Grapples makes it a REAL possibility. Only need a 7" on a re-rollable. With a 6" consolidate move on top of that you can suddenly charge a vehicle, crush it and then smash through into the enemies battle line.

 

Meanwhile Lemartes is a safely behind a wall of drop pods a good 15" or so away from the enemy, with other units potentially dropped near him too guarding - like some DC who will take advantage of his leadership and buffs next turn!

 

I think Furioso fists are probably best for the DCD's too, sure Talons get D6 damage, but the flat 3D along with re-rolls to hit will maximize your output. Even if you land all of your blood talon hits and the opponent doesn't save, the average damage is 14, but in reality you're probably only going to get 1 or two attacks through.

[Xenith]

How do you get the DCD close by? Stormraven?

 

Don't forget that keeping stuff in reserve doesn't effect going first. Instead of putting the unit on the table your declare it's doing whatever, but it still counts as an unit.

[Jolemai]

He's referring to using a Dreadnought Drop Pod - shall we just agree to disagree on that point and move on rather than debate it again?

[Charlo]

Yeah, Dread Pods.

 

All legal and updated rules in the new FW Index.

[Xenith]

No worries, I seen the words deep striking and dread without reference to a pod and was confused.

[Bronze Katana]

I'm currently going through my Flesh Tearers collection, which I haven't used since end of 5th edition (I've been away from the game for a while, but smashing my way back in now).

 

I'm sorting what I can use, what not, and what may or may not be worthwhile.

 

How do people feel about the humble Sanguinary Initiate (i.e. Apothecary). Worthwhile?

Or should I convert this guy so I have two Sanguinary Priests instead?

[Father Mapple]

Sanguinary initiate is good. Character starts, even cheaper, just no +1 strength to fighting. No upgrades other than a jump pack, but he's a buffer, not a beat stuck, and neither is the sanguinary priest. With the vanguard detachment, it's a good way of getting 2 more hqs and some priests or other small characters like champions.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Something that is taking getting used to, no more grenades in CQC. Second game of 8th and I have made a fee learning mistakes. Specialist pistols seem to take the place of said grenades *if* you aren't disengaged. being able to block vehicles and non flyer units from disengaging is quite powerful.

 

Also Wave serpents are extremely tough dropping all damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. They definitely need focus fire. especially when they pop out fire dragons and turn everything to slag.

[Bronze Katana]

Sanguinary initiate is good. Character starts, even cheaper, just no +1 strength to fighting. No upgrades other than a jump pack, but he's a buffer, not a beat stuck, and neither is the sanguinary priest. With the vanguard detachment, it's a good way of getting 2 more hqs and some priests or other small characters like champions.

 

I'll give it a shot.

Seems pricey for what it offers, but I have spare room in a razorback or two so we'll see how it goes.

 

 

Something that is taking getting used to, no more grenades in CQC. Second game of 8th and I have made a fee learning mistakes. Specialist pistols seem to take the place of said grenades *if* you aren't disengaged. being able to block vehicles and non flyer units from disengaging is quite powerful.

 

Also Wave serpents are extremely tough dropping all damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. They definitely need focus fire. especially when they pop out fire dragons and turn everything to slag.

 

Thing about grenades, they are counted as another shooting weapon yeah?

So this would mean a model with a meltagun and meltabombs can attack with both in each shooting phase.

 

Inferno pistol and melta bombs is a no-no though, as it's pistols or everything else.

[Arkhanist]

 

Thing about grenades, they are counted as another shooting weapon yeah?

So this would mean a model with a meltagun and meltabombs can attack with both in each shooting phase.

 

 

Grenades are instead of any other weapons and one per unit. Inferno pistols would be much more useful as an alternative if they weren't 4x the price of a melta bomb.

[Bronze Katana]

 

 

Thing about grenades, they are counted as another shooting weapon yeah?

So this would mean a model with a meltagun and meltabombs can attack with both in each shooting phase.

 

 

Grenades are instead of any other weapons and one per unit. Inferno pistols would be much more useful as an alternative if they weren't 4x the price of a melta bomb.

 

 

Ah ok cheers. Don't have the rules on me at the moment, and haven't played any 8th ed yet.

So I probably shouldn't have commented! :D

 

At least with inferno pistols you can shoot in combat, I suppose.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Bronze Katana

[Xenith]

 

 

Ah ok cheers. Don't have the rules on me at the moment, and haven't played any 8th ed yet.

So I probably shouldn't have commented!

 

Here's the rules so you can have them wherever you are. Grenades are on p6 :)

[Bronze Katana]

 

 

 

Ah ok cheers. Don't have the rules on me at the moment, and haven't played any 8th ed yet.

So I probably shouldn't have commented!

 

Here's the rules so you can have them wherever you are. Grenades are on p6

 

 

Hah, cheers!

 

(Was at work, probably shouldn't have been posting on here either...)

[Dont-Be-Haten]

last night's game was a much larger learning curve than my first. I went from playing a 40 power to 2,000 point list.

 

The game made it to bottom of turn 4. before my opponent conceded. Here are a couple thoughts: Flamers are still really good, they put out a ton of damage simply because they auto hit.

 

It's adjustment wounding on 3s and 5s more often than 2s and 6s. It may take a couple games before I unlearn old habits. Such as charging vehicles and hitting rear armor with grenades/high strength weapons. Disengaging is really power, as we all thought it would be.

 

Sanguinary Guard with Angelus bolters being to assault in, do damage, bounce out, and shoot the unit with high rates of fire power may be better than advertised. Keyword <Fly> in general is really good actually.

 

As well as disengaging and casting smite, and other psychic power x. We couldn't find anywhere in the LRB or BRB where you couldn't disengage and still cast powers.

 

The GAME took longer because we are still processing and in the learning stages. I feel 2,000 for 4 turns wasn't bad; However, our community is in discussion of games actually being bumped to 2,500 instead.

[Karhedron]

How do people feel about the humble Sanguinary Initiate (i.e. Apothecary). Worthwhile?

Or should I convert this guy so I have two Sanguinary Priests instead?

If the guy is going to be anywhere near the front line, the extra 14 points for a 6" +1S bubble is a bargain. The only time I would consider the Initiate is if I wanted someone to patch up a shooty squad in the back field. Say you have a squad of Primaris Marines holding an objective, an Initiate might be OK.

 

But that just isn't very angelic is it? Our boys should be swooping down from the heavens to smite the unrighteous with their wrath. For me it would be the Sanguinary Priest or even Corbulo most of the time.

[Karhedron]

Sanguinary Guard with Angelus bolters being to assault in, do damage, bounce out, and shoot the unit with high rates of fire power may be better than advertised. Keyword <Fly> in general is really good actually.

 

As well as disengaging and casting smite, and other psychic power x. We couldn't find anywhere in the LRB or BRB where you couldn't disengage and still cast powers.

FLY is a good keyword. Being able to bounce out of combat and then shoot is good for units like Inceptors, Warp Spiders and Battlesuits who rely on mobile firepower but SG usually want to be in combat so they are not getting shot and they can get the value out of their expensive weapons. Instead of bouncing out and shooting, take plasma pistols and you can stay in combat and shoot instead.

 

As for Smite, the rules say you cannot shoot or assault if you withdraw from combat (and shooting is negated by FLY). It doesn't say it restricts psychic powers so I think you can cast away.

[Karhedron]

Also Wave serpents are extremely tough dropping all damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. They definitely need focus fire. especially when they pop out fire dragons and turn everything to slag.

Yup, Wave Serpents are tough, especially when they take Spirit Stones for FNP-lite. They have the FLY keyword too so even if you try to bring them down in assault, they can just float backwards and shoot. People are talking about Razor-spam being powerful but I think Mech Eldar will give it a run for its money.