8th Ed BA Tactica.

[Charlo]

Another one about bikes is that swapping the bolt pistol for a chainsword finally makes sense, giving the extra dudes without special weapons another attack in combat.

[Jorre]

So I just noticed that land raiders can now transport Jump Infantry! With a 3" disembark and 12" move thats got to be useful for getting a charge of with a SG/DC or even a Vanguard squad!

[TrawlingCleaner]

What do people think about missile launchers? I had 2 500 point games with a 5 man tac squad with missile launcher in my list, the missile launcher did work and is actually good versus the majority of opponents

[Charlo]

Good weapon with nice variety of target opportunities. But if you are engaging tanks, the Lascannon is the same price but purely better.

[Karhedron]

If I were buying a multi-role weapon, I would be tempted by the Plasma Cannon, provided I had some way to reroll 1s when overcharging. D3 shots at S8 with 2 wounds is actually pretty effective at dealing with vehicles (provided you don't blow yourself up at the same time).

 

Probably works better for Space Puppies than Blood Angels though as Long Fangs get to reroll 1s without the help of a character when they concentrate fire.

 

Tempted to run my Devs with 4 Plasmas anyway and a cheap Captain to babysit them.

[Indefragable]

I've had a few games under my belt now: 2x 50 power games, 1x BA, 1x IG, and 1x 3000pt game with Dark Angels last night.

 

Couple points of note so far:

 

-8th edition can be absolutely brutal. The lethality has been dialed up big time.

 

-don't be lulled into a false sense of security with Cover. Things with AP-3 etc.... will still absolutely chew through your dudes....

 

-....speaking of, lascannons are absolutely brutal this edition. Their range + AP-3 + D: D6 packs such a wallop. My Land Raider was downed in 2x rounds of shooting....even with -1 To Hit and 4++ bubbles (Darkshroud/Azrael)

 

-I am not a fan of New Coke Space Marines......but : cuss Primaris Lieutenants may be a dang-near necessity. Re-rolling 1's To Wound for everything can make a huge difference. Especially said lascannons above.

 

-the Horde Ascendent. Horde armies are going to absolutely dominate this edition. In the 3k game, I fought Black Templars that had almost seventy (yes, 70) power armored bodies within close proximity getting to re-roll To Hit from Helbrecht and re-roll 1's To Wound from a Prim LT. Brutality incarnate. Without blast templates, this is especially brutal because my opponent (brilliantly) had several combat squaded Tac squads surrounding a giant Crusader squad unit. Like a plastic bumper on a car, those Combat squads had to be individually removed. And since Cover is +1 to Save....that's 2+ Saves for those 70x bodies.

--"but we have flamers!" you cry. Yes....but even a 4x Heavy Flamer Devastator squad will only be hitting one unit at a time. So splash damage is kaput.

 

-"What do they call the person who finishes last in medical school?" II had Apothecaries, medics, and/or Sanguinary Priests in all of my games. I never healed a single wound. Granted, since its a 4+ to do so, karma/math says they should work for me in the future. But we all know how anecdotal evidence is king

--I think BA have an advantage here since Sang Priests A) fulfill HQ tax B ) we're mostly taking them for the +1S. A 50% chance to heal something is a bonus.

--I think Apoths will really be most useful for healing multi-wound characters. Bringing a single body back in a big unit on a 50/50 role is....alright. But if you have a 50% chance, you might as well go big or go home and try to give your beatstick D3 wounds back (IMO so far).

 

-TH/SS Terminators are absolutely brutal this edition. 2W/2+ for fending off small arms, but the 3++ has never been more valuable. My BT opponent Deep Struck 5x of these guys (my models I had just sold him....BETRAYAL!!!!!) into the rear of my deployment zone and proceeded to eat up half my armie's shooting and fended off 3x units that charged them.

 

-speaking of Deep Striking.....Regular Terminators may be the secret assassins of the game. No-scatter Deep Strike behind the enemy's setup, aka exposing enemy HQ units to fire = naaaaaaaaaasty.

 

-Multi-Damage weapons are nasty en masse. Hence why buffed lascannon Devs (and equiv) are going to be on a lot of tables. My Land Raider lost 8wounds in a single volley of lascannon fire (did I mention the enemy had -1 To Hit and the LR had a 4++?). All it took was 2x wounds to go through, and then Damage rolls of 6 + 2. LR was cut down to BS 5+ and 5" movement for the rest of the game.

 

-Chainswords have grown on me. For their cost (0pts !!!) they are brilliant. Where they have really come into their own is on models like Tactical Sgts, Veterans w/ special weapons, etc... They become a force multiplier in the "small wars." I had quite a few Tactical units whittle down to 2 men, but they get 4x attacks because Sgts get 2A + 1 from chainsword. That might not sound like much, but it makes a difference.

--in contrast I am surmising that any dedicated CQC weapon is better off with power weapons or other shinier toys as combat is just too lethal now not to kill things as viciously as possible as quickly as possible

--so Chainswords have a bit of a diminishing return: they are good at giving units like Tacticals and Devastators and extra swing or two that can make a difference. Likewise, they turn jump pack ASM into the harassing units they are meant to be. ASM and Devastators are the perfect ying/yang because Devs WILL destroy things at range, but having the extra attacks helps make sure that ASM have an edge when (if) they make it into combat

 

-Verdict is out on Librarians (I used 3x last night). Much simpler to get powers off and throwing Mortal Wounds on things is a big force multiplier. Other powers can be tricky, like the Leadership debuff one for Dark Angels needs your Libby to be within 6" of an enemy unit....which if he's hanging back, you don't necessarily want him to be there. Need more data on these fellas.

 

-Rhinos are amazing. Take 2x Storm bolters for 8 shots in Rapid Fire range and eat overwatch for days.

 

-I'm not sure what I think of the new To Wound system. I suppose I should be happy that things are less extreme....but at the risk of sound whiny.....it's boring rolling 3's and 5's for everything. I think I would prefer if the Strength of a weapon was 4 points greater than the Targets strength it would wound on a 2+. So S8 would still wound T4 on a 2+, but then S9 would wound T5 on a 2+, etc... Right now the gulf between T4 and T5 is just as extreme as ever, which I am disappointed in since I thought 8th was going to "fix" a lot of those issues.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Indefragable

[Are Verlo]

I've had a few games under my belt now: 2x 50 power games, 1x BA, 1x IG, and 1x 3000pt game with Dark Angels last night.

 

Couple points of note so far:

 

-8th edition can be absolutely brutal. The lethality has been dialed up big time.

 

-don't be lulled into a false sense of security with Cover. Things with AP-3 etc.... will still absolutely chew through your dudes....

 

-....speaking of, lascannons are absolutely brutal this edition. Their range + AP-3 + D: D6 packs such a wallop. My Land Raider was downed in 2x rounds of shooting....even with -1 To Hit and 4++ bubbles (Darkshroud/Azrael)

 

-I am not a fan of New Coke Space Marines......but : cuss Primaris Lieutenants may be a dang-near necessity. Re-rolling 1's To Wound for everything can make a huge difference. Especially said lascannons above.

 

-the Horde Ascendent. Horde armies are going to absolutely dominate this edition. In the 3k game, I fought Black Templars that had almost seventy (yes, 70) power armored bodies within close proximity getting to re-roll To Hit from Helbrecht and re-roll 1's To Wound from a Prim LT. Brutality incarnate. Without blast templates, this is especially brutal because my opponent (brilliantly) had several combat squaded Tac squads surrounding a giant Crusader squad unit. Like a plastic bumper on a car, those Combat squads had to be individually removed. And since Cover is +1 to Save....that's 2+ Saves for those 70x bodies.

--"but we have flamers!" you cry. Yes....but even a 4x Heavy Flamer Devastator squad will only be hitting one unit at a time. So splash damage is kaput.

 

-"What do they call the person who finishes last in medical school?" II had Apothecaries, medics, and/or Sanguinary Priests in all of my games. I never healed a single wound. Granted, since its a 4+ to do so, karma/math says they should work for me in the future. But we all know how anecdotal evidence is king

--I think BA have an advantage here since Sang Priests A) fulfill HQ tax B ) we're mostly taking them for the +1S. A 50% chance to heal something is a bonus.

--I think Apoths will really be most useful for healing multi-wound characters. Bringing a single body back in a big unit on a 50/50 role is....alright. But if you have a 50% chance, you might as well go big or go home and try to give your beatstick D3 wounds back (IMO so far).

 

-TH/SS Terminators are absolutely brutal this edition. 2W/2+ for fending off small arms, but the 3++ has never been more valuable. My BT opponent Deep Struck 5x of these guys (my models I had just sold him....BETRAYAL!!!!!) into the rear of my deployment zone and proceeded to eat up half my armie's shooting and fended off 3x units that charged them.

 

-speaking of Deep Striking.....Regular Terminators may be the secret assassins of the game. No-scatter Deep Strike behind the enemy's setup, aka exposing enemy HQ units to fire = naaaaaaaaaasty.

 

-Multi-Damage weapons are nasty en masse. Hence why buffed lascannon Devs (and equiv) are going to be on a lot of tables. My Land Raider lost 8wounds in a single volley of lascannon fire (did I mention the enemy had -1 To Hit and the LR had a 4++?). All it took was 2x wounds to go through, and then Damage rolls of 6 + 2. LR was cut down to BS 5+ and 5" movement for the rest of the game.

 

-Chainswords have grown on me. For their cost (0pts !!!) they are brilliant. Where they have really come into their own is on models like Tactical Sgts, Veterans w/ special weapons, etc... They become a force multiplier in the "small wars." I had quite a few Tactical units whittle down to 2 men, but they get 4x attacks because Sgts get 2A + 1 from chainsword. That might not sound like much, but it makes a difference.

--in contrast I am surmising that any dedicated CQC weapon is better off with power weapons or other shinier toys as combat is just too lethal now not to kill things as viciously as possible as quickly as possible

--so Chainswords have a bit of a diminishing return: they are good at giving units like Tacticals and Devastators and extra swing or two that can make a difference. Likewise, they turn jump pack ASM into the harassing units they are meant to be. ASM and Devastators are the perfect ying/yang because Devs WILL destroy things at range, but having the extra attacks helps make sure that ASM have an edge when (if) they make it into combat

 

-Verdict is out on Librarians (I used 3x last night). Much simpler to get powers off and throwing Mortal Wounds on things is a big force multiplier. Other powers can be tricky, like the Leadership debuff one for Dark Angels needs your Libby to be within 6" of an enemy unit....which if he's hanging back, you don't necessarily want him to be there. Need more data on these fellas.

 

-Rhinos are amazing. Take 2x Storm bolters for 8 shots in Rapid Fire range and eat overwatch for days.

 

-I'm not sure what I think of the new To Wound system. I suppose I should be happy that things are less extreme....but at the risk of sound whiny.....it's boring rolling 3's and 5's for everything. I think I would prefer if the Strength of a weapon was 4 points greater than the Targets strength it would wound on a 2+. So S8 would still wound T4 on a 2+, but then S9 would wound T5 on a 2+, etc... Right now the gulf between T4 and T5 is just as extreme as ever, which I am disappointed in since I thought 8th was going to "fix" a lot of those issues.

Thank you for sharing your hard earned insight :-D

But I might be reading you wrong regarding the massed PA bodies getting cover? The way I read the rules models don´t get cover from other models, just for being on/in terrain or being obscured by terrain? The combat squads wont give the crusaders behind them cover?

 

Edit: some random thoughts on the gap/gulf between T4 and T5: for my guardsmen the new to wound system is godsendt, they wound marines and bikers on the good old 5+. I find that a good thing. Now the men keeping the darkness at bay with their flashlights can bring the fight to bikers as well as traitors and heretics in power armour :-P

Edited June 23, 2017 by Are Verlo

[Ishagu]

So... I lost to BA yesterday.

My list included:

 

-Marneus Calgar

-2 Honour Guard

-20 Tacticals with Plasma and Grav

-3 Grav Centurions

-Apothecary

-Vindicare Assasin

-Relic Deredeo with various upgrades

-Relic Sicaran with various upgrades

-Godhammer Landraider with Multi Melta

 

BA list was:

 

-Sanguinor

-Terminator Ancient

-Sanguinary Priest

-Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack

-10 Death Company with Jump Packs

-5 TH/SS Terminators

-5 LC Terminators

-Furioso

-Landraider Crusader with HK Missile

-Stormraven Gunship

 

So, the Sanguinor is very good. He's delicate, but he was able to cut down Calgar after he rolled 5/6 4++ invuls.

The synergy between the ancient, Sanguinor and Priest was very powerful.

 

The Death Company failed a charge when they deepstruck and I was able to clear them out.

 

After some good positioning, and the INFURIATING consolidations in combat I was unable to use many of my units for the second and third turns of the game, due to the penalty of disengaging from combat.

 

Stormraven is great, able to deploy out of LoS in a far corner and still fly to deliver a unit in time for turn 2. Even though I shot it down on my first turn (I went second) it was able to cripple my Sicaran.

 

Learnt a lot. BA are much better than they initially seem! Terminators are a legitimately good unit now.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Ishagu

[edge406]

Honour guards are back!

I was able to deep strike two units of them armed with four plasmaguns each together with Dante into ruins close to the middle of field and they were devastating enemy infantry units getting rerolls from Dante and 2+ save in cover. High AP shots were deflected by sergeants' 3++ shields.

[Indefragable]

 

EDIT: snip

Thank you for sharing your hard earned insight :-D

But I might be reading you wrong regarding the massed PA bodies getting cover? The way I read the rules models don´t get cover from other models, just for being on/in terrain or being obscured by terrain? The combat squads wont give the crusaders behind them cover?

 

Edit: some random thoughts on the gap/gulf between T4 and T5: for my guardsmen the new to wound system is godsendt, they wound marines and bikers on the good old 5+. I find that a good thing. Now the men keeping the darkness at bay with their flashlights can bring the fight to bikers as well as traitors and heretics in power armour :-P

 

 

Oh for Guardsmen it's awesome. Even the fact that bolt pistols can shave off an unlucky wound from a Dreadnought is cool. I just mean that there's little variety to what you're fishing for: its' pretty much always 3+ or 5+ with the occasional 6+. Even Lascannons are wounding their ideal targets on 3's at best. Meltas are wounding most vehicles on 3's for or 4's. That's my point. It's much easier to pick up and streamlined....just.....a bit less interesting. Weird gripe I'll admit, and not a huge one for me.

 

So the big huge "Black TIde" force wasn't getting cover from each other, they were getting cover from the ruins they were marching across. Hence the 2+ saves. And, Crusader squads are NASTY since you put 3+ sword brethren up front, but can allocate casualties to the meat shields initiates all the way in the back. 

 

I would attach a pic, but I can't figure out how.

[Quixus]

Were there storm shields on the "Honour Guard"?

 

I'm thinking about making my Assault marines into company veterans. Two flamers/meltaguns, two marines with bolt pistols and chainswords (or power weapons and storm shields) if points permit) and a Sgt. with Thunder Hammer and combi melta/flamer. Too much bling?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

 

 

EDIT: snip

Thank you for sharing your hard earned insight :-D

But I might be reading you wrong regarding the massed PA bodies getting cover? The way I read the rules models don´t get cover from other models, just for being on/in terrain or being obscured by terrain? The combat squads wont give the crusaders behind them cover?

 

Edit: some random thoughts on the gap/gulf between T4 and T5: for my guardsmen the new to wound system is godsendt, they wound marines and bikers on the good old 5+. I find that a good thing. Now the men keeping the darkness at bay with their flashlights can bring the fight to bikers as well as traitors and heretics in power armour :-P

Oh for Guardsmen it's awesome. Even the fact that bolt pistols can shave off an unlucky wound from a Dreadnought is cool. I just mean that there's little variety to what you're fishing for: its' pretty much always 3+ or 5+ with the occasional 6+. Even Lascannons are wounding their ideal targets on 3's at best. Meltas are wounding most vehicles on 3's for or 4's. That's my point. It's much easier to pick up and streamlined....just.....a bit less interesting. Weird gripe I'll admit, and not a huge one for me.

 

So the big huge "Black TIde" force wasn't getting cover from each other, they were getting cover from the ruins they were marching across. Hence the 2+ saves. And, Crusader squads are NASTY since you put 3+ sword brethren up front, but can allocate casualties to the meat shields initiates all the way in the back.

 

I would attach a pic, but I can't figure out how.

I find it hard to believe you played with enough cover for 70 marines on 32mm bases to be 100% in cover. Unless I'm misreading how cover works that's the only way then squad can gain cover is if they are fully in the terrain.

 

AP-2/3+ are still going to do a ton of damages to slow walking footies.

[Are Verlo]

Yeah, all models in a unit have to be in/on a terrain piece to get cover, BUT if you play with that much terrain on your battlefield it must be a great game. My local meta has reached a "gentleman´s agreement" and we use lots of terrain, but even on our battlefields it would be hard to find cover for that many bodies :-D

 

I´ve always enjoyed battles with a healthy mix of terrain, the more the better...

[edge406]

Were there storm shields on the "Honour Guard"?

 

I'm thinking about making my Assault marines into company veterans. Two flamers/meltaguns, two marines with bolt pistols and chainswords (or power weapons and storm shields) if points permit) and a Sgt. with Thunder Hammer and combi melta/flamer. Too much bling?

 

I meany\t company veterans that look a lot like BA honour guards from 5th edition.

They can take 4 special weapons and any veteran can take 3++.

 

Flamers are useless when deep striking, and like someone said in this topic - company veterans are for special weapons spam and vanguards are for CC and they also can take melta bombs.

[Karhedron]

I wouldn't rule out Company Vets as dedicated CC squads, particularly if you are accompanying a Character. Give Dante and Company Vet squad when he attacks and suddenly any failed saves can be passed off to an expendable extra on a 2+. They are like cheap ablative wounds that can fight and be buffed by Dante's rerolls as long as they are alive.

 

I am thinking 2 TH 2 SS and 2 BP/CS. 160-ish points but they will keep Dante swinging for twice as long and can dish out the hurt to large targets.

 

A cheap squad on foot can do the same job for Mephiston since he lacks an invulnerable save.

[OrbOfAntioch]

I'm a little fuzzy with the ruling...

So, as long as characters are within 3'' of other friendly non-character units, the character can never be targeted in CC? 

[Morticon]

I'm a little fuzzy with the ruling...

So, as long as characters are within 3'' of other friendly non-character units, the character can never be targeted in CC? 

Not sure what you're referring to bud! But it doesn't seem to sound right. 

 

In terms of attacking, and from my understanding, on the turn you charge, you may target any enemy unit that you charged within 1".  Thereafter you may target any enemy unit within 1".  The only time 3" comes into play is when Characters perform a heroic intervention.  

[Arkhanist]

The restriction on targeting characters is in the shooting phase - you can only shoot at ones with 9 or less wounds if they're the closest visible unit, no exceptions bar special weapon rules (sniper rifles etc)

 

A character can be targeted in close combat by any enemy that's within 1" of his base; and anyone from the same unit that is within 1" of those (2nd rank, in effect). The exception is that chargers can only target units they declared a charge against that turn - if they declared the charge against the vets, but not the character as well for overwatch purposes, they can't then attack him even if they're within range after charge/pile in.

 

What company veterans can do is intercept a wound (from cc or shooting) for a friendly character within 3" of the unit on a 2+ - for each wound successfully 'bodyguarded', the character doesn't lose one, but the unit takes a mortal wound. So you've a 5 in 6 chance to sacrifice a vet to save a wound the character takes after a failed save etc. That's also wounds lost, i.e. after damage - e.g. a successful thunderhammer attack that beats his save on a char would need to successfully sacrifice 3 vets to negate all 3 wounds lost.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Arkhanist

[Quixus]

Wit proper pile in and 25mm bases I'm sure you can get 3 ranks in.

[OrbOfAntioch]

The restriction on targeting characters is in the shooting phase - you can only shoot at ones with 9 or less wounds if they're the closest visible unit, no exceptions bar special weapon rules (sniper rifles etc)

 

What company veterans can do is intercept a wound (from cc or shooting) for a friendly character within 3" of the unit on a 2+ - for each wound successfully 'bodyguarded', the character doesn't lose one, but the unit takes a mortal wound. So you've a 5 in 6 chance to sacrifice a vet to save a wound the character takes after a failed save etc. That's also wounds lost, i.e. after damage - e.g. a successful thunderhammer attack that beats his save on a char would need to successfully sacrifice 3 vets to negate all 3 wounds lost.

Ahhhhhhh yea we're talking strictly CVs...... that's why I was confused!

 

With CV's ability to JPA multiple plasma/melta though, I don't know if I want to choose them for CC over shooting..

By the way, has anyone found the actual cost for JP for CVs (OR CV with JP)? I have the ebook and I can't find an entry for it anywhere. I'm automatically assuming 3pt but proof would be good 

[Quixus]

On p. 212 of the printed version in the unit section there is an entry company veteran with JP. Interestingly there is no point cost for the veteran sgt., but since the sgt without JP costs the same as a company veteran without JP, I think the sgt. with JP is supposed to cost the same amount as a CV with JP

[Aothaine]

Missile Launchers are really good.

 

Scouts, as I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of now, are really good. (four sniper rifles, one missile launcher. I run six squads of these in my list)

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Something I'm still really keen on is a drop pod with storm bolter, devastator squad with Multi-Meltas, with a combi-plasma//grav sergeant with an armored cherub 2-4 extra marines, and priest. The Combi-plasma seems like the better option for this type unit because you can drop 12" and still be within maximum damage parameters. The utility of the unit being that if something scary is within striking distance, you can drop more than 12" away and still do great amounts of damage, while the Priest can respawn dead models. Although I personally feel that PEQs are going to be a big deal soon, so having the option for grav-shots is going to be *real* important. Just from what I'm noticing within my own meta. May have to look into it; lots of Parking lots and MC with 3+ w9+ to deal with.

So Grav Cannon's might also be pretty effective in this load out as well. I haven't played enough to really feel out the effective capabilities with these types of tactics.

Speaking of Deep Striking in general, I haven't been able to find it anywhere, but can you deep strike on LoS blocking terrain that is 9.01" (also read impassable) vertical to your opponents models? We play with huge amounts of LoS blocking terrain in our FLGS; which isn't very practical; Especially when you can bounce wave serpents and the like up the walls and give them full parameter of the board. Dropping a Pod like that with an assault dedicated unit being able to attempt a charge 9+ inches away without fear of being overwatched seems quite powerful. It may need a FAQ if you can do that, but then again we may gentlemen's agreement it, by removing such massive amounts of that type of terrain.

[Jolemai]

Seriously folks, remember to throw a grenade in the shooting phase and overwatch - one bolt pistol shot or D6 from a frag grenade? Seriously, frags are hilarious now and kraks have their uses too.

 

Shoot those pistols whilst in combat too!

[ROOOOOOOOY]

Good advice on the grenades! Can I ask what peoples thoughts on Land Speeders are?  I would like something quick to get across the table to grab objectives but still pack a punch. I was thinking of Assault Cannon + Heavy Bolter combo, keeping it reasonably cheap. I have jump pack units but in games I found that I was using them to grab objectives when I paid the points for them to be used in CC.