8th Ed BA Tactica.

[Sun Reaver]

My buddy is running 6 storm ravens in an upcoming 2000 GT. Doesn't sound too fun to play with or against but man that's ridiculous.

Also, been thinking of running DC. What do you guys think is the optimal loadout? I've been thinking of 2 10 man squads with bolters, jump packs, and a thunderhammer?

 

edit - spelling

Edited June 29, 2017 by Sun Reaver

[Charlo]

 

 

 

Just want to point out that Tactical Squads are not bad. They are just used differently. Load them up, combat squad them and throw the the four marines with the sergeant in the razor and the heavy weapon team deployed forward for mid field coverage.

 

I think a lot of us, including myself, are looking for that golden setup instead of looking at the units as part of a cog wheel turning the entire machine forward.

 

Tacticals can kit out a 5-man squad to target either MC/vehicles or hordes. Possibly both. I'm actually working on a list atm that uses tactical 5-mans for anti-vehicle and the razorbacks as anti-horde.

 

You need to use your elites and hqs for buffing them. Then you run 1-2 assault squads to counter-charge. I'll post the list later tonight.

Problem is, unless you are going to a larger detachment, Devs now do that and much more with more firepower and better options.

I agree. But Tacticals have a use. They are good fillers.

But why would you have "filler" ?

 

I like Tacs too but filler a good list doesn't make !

[Aothaine]

 

 

 

Just want to point out that Tactical Squads are not bad. They are just used differently. Load them up, combat squad them and throw the the four marines with the sergeant in the razor and the heavy weapon team deployed forward for mid field coverage.

 

I think a lot of us, including myself, are looking for that golden setup instead of looking at the units as part of a cog wheel turning the entire machine forward.

 

Tacticals can kit out a 5-man squad to target either MC/vehicles or hordes. Possibly both. I'm actually working on a list atm that uses tactical 5-mans for anti-vehicle and the razorbacks as anti-horde.

 

You need to use your elites and hqs for buffing them. Then you run 1-2 assault squads to counter-charge. I'll post the list later tonight.

Problem is, unless you are going to a larger detachment, Devs now do that and much more with more firepower and better options.

I agree. But Tacticals have a use. They are good fillers.

But why would you have "filler" ?

 

I like Tacs too but filler a good list doesn't make !

 

 

True but you can also give them flamers and use them with your razorbacks to protect the back lines or do a lot of things with them really. You don't need to have units so specialized that they wipe out their entire unit by themselves. You can use the flamer tacs to charge in and eat the over-watch. With 5 you should be able to make it in. Then assault in with your 5 man DC squad. 

 

Filler might have been the wrong word. I'm just trying to say that they fill difference roles than the elites or heavy supports do. That doesn't make them any less important or useful.

[Charlo]

But my argument to that is for a miniscule amount of points extra you can now include a devastator squad with four heavy flamers and achieve your desired result :p

[Karhedron]

But my argument to that is for a miniscule amount of points extra you can now include a devastator squad with four heavy flamers and achieve your desired result

I am inclined to agree. Previously, reasons to take Tac squads were for ObjSec and to fulfill our Troop tax. Now we have a Vanguard detachments we have literally no need to take Troops if we don't want to and ObjSec no longer exists.

 

I know that Batallions get more CPs but if your units are more effective to begin with, you will need fewer rerolls. A CP can be used once and then it is gone. A Dev squad will outshoot a Tac squad every turn of the game.

[Karhedron]

My buddy is running 6 storm ravens in an upcoming 2000 GT. Doesn't sound too fun to play with or against but man that's ridiculous.

Flier spam can be effective but tends to run into hard counters from AA weapons. I agree though that this is starting to sound like a NPE.

 

Also, been thinking of running DC. What do you guys think is the optimal loadout? I've been thinking of 2 10 man squads with bolters, jump packs, and a thunderhammer?

In a 10 man squad I would take 2 THs and 2-3 power swords. They are ridiculously cheap at just 4 points for -3AP that you should always load up on some IMHO.

[Aothaine]

It all comes down to what you need the units to do then. I do understand where you are coming from. I just rate Tacs higher than you do on the battlefield. The heavy Flamers alone in that devastator squad are 68 points. Then you need to add the marines using them and their transport because you are not going to walk those devs up the board.

 

Any unit of devs is a lot more expensive than a Tac squad. The list I made earlier with Tacs gives you a good variety of units that can tackle different targets.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Aothaine

[biglou666]

I would say that sniper scouts seem better than tac marines at the moment. They are still a troops choice so you can grab those bonus command points from your lists if you're building that way, and snipers are just straight up good against most targets, especially against aura providing characters with those mortal wounds.

 

Taking 3 5 man sniper squad comes in at around the same price as 15 kitted out marines too. They do have to stay in cover more than tacs do, but our assault squads / DC / dreads do a better job in our lists as a frontline anyway.

[Morticon]

It all comes down to what you need the units to do then. I do understand where you are coming from. I just rate Tacs higher than you do on the battlefield. The heavy Flamers alone in that devastator squad are 68 points. Then you need to add the marines using them and their transport because you are not going to walk those devs up the board.

 

Any unit of devs is a lot more expensive than a Tac squad. The list I made earlier with Tacs gives you a goo variety of units that can tackle different targets.

Ahoy!! Not sure if there is a little lost in translation type thing going on here...???

But, Devastators can be identically equipped as Tactical marines- except with more stuff. 

 

You don't HAVE to have 4 weapons.  

 

Your Tacs have a missile launcher.  You can do the exact same thing with Devs - only have the missile launcher firing at +1 BS (and can add more weapons later if you want). 

 

This isn't a question of the perceived value of Tactical marines in relation to Devs being different for different people -  because when their stats and battlefield role are identical to Devs other than the Tacs getting less rules.... its no longer a matter of opinion.   The only debate is whether or not the ONE Command Point difference the Tacs bring in your build outweighs the +1 BS for three squads. (Considering you can get the identical list up to 8 CP with 3 devs in for Tacs) 

 

I dont think that's even really a question?

 

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Morticon

[Remtek]

Similar with LC Preds. A 4 shot LC Pred only cost slighly more than 2 x  Razors with twin LC. Both are T7, Pred has one more wound than a single Razor but the same dmg output. 

[Xenith]

It all comes down to what you need the units to do then. I do understand where you are coming from. I just rate Tacs higher than you do on the battlefield. The heavy Flamers alone in that devastator squad are 68 points. Then you need to add the marines using them and their transport because you are not going to walk those devs up the board.

 

Any unit of devs is a lot more expensive than a Tac squad. The list I made earlier with Tacs gives you a good variety of units that can tackle different targets.

 

As per Mort:

 

5 tactical marines, heavy flamer = 82pts.

5 Devastators, heavy flamer  = 82pts

 

10 tactical marines, heavy flamer, meltagun = 164pts

5 devastator marines, heavy flamer, multi melta = 109pts

 

You can take more damaging weapons per head for the devs, making them more effective. They can do everything a tactical squad can do. 

 

 

 

Similar with LC Preds. A 4 shot LC Pred only cost slighly more than 2 x  Razors with twin LC. Both are T7, Pred has one more wound than a single Razor but the same dmg output. 

 

BRB, buying another Razor.

 

I fully expect this to be nerfed sometime though.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Xenith

[Aothaine]

I would say that sniper scouts seem better than tac marines at the moment. They are still a troops choice so you can grab those bonus command points from your lists if you're building that way, and snipers are just straight up good against most targets, especially against aura providing characters with those mortal wounds.

 

Taking 3 5 man sniper squad comes in at around the same price as 15 kitted out marines too. They do have to stay in cover more than tacs do, but our assault squads / DC / dreads do a better job in our lists as a frontline anyway.

 

 

I agree. But you also need units that can capture objectives. I draw the objective card to stay on an objective on the back board after deployment. Do I move my scouts out of cover? Do I move my Heavy Flamer Devs further away from the enemy? Or do I just drop off the Tac squad to hold the obj while the main beat stick moves towards it's goal, the enemy?

 

Tabling your opponent should not be the goal in any list you make as the goal of every game will change from capturing points to contesting areas to, yes, tabling your opponent. Victory Points are what is important. I have seen many games won by a force that was almost tabled by their opponent because they focused on the objectives rather than the kill. Unless you're Flesh Tearers.. then I mean... you're being fluffy building lists to table your opponent.

[DemonGSides]

 

I've got too many tacticals to not use them in my lists.

I had this problem too until I converted 20 of them to DC with bolters.

 

 

I haven't painted more than 10 of my Tac marines yet, so this is actually a possibility.  I'd need to find some Chainswords without hands on them to add to their backpacks so it still meets WYSIWYG requirements...  Anyone know of a good bits place that sells handless chainswords?  Need about 20!

[Aothaine]

 

It all comes down to what you need the units to do then. I do understand where you are coming from. I just rate Tacs higher than you do on the battlefield. The heavy Flamers alone in that devastator squad are 68 points. Then you need to add the marines using them and their transport because you are not going to walk those devs up the board.

 

Any unit of devs is a lot more expensive than a Tac squad. The list I made earlier with Tacs gives you a good variety of units that can tackle different targets.

 

As per Mort:

 

5 tactical marines, heavy flamer = 82pts.

5 Devastators, heavy flamer  = 82pts

 

10 tactical marines, heavy flamer, meltagun = 164pts

5 devastator marines, heavy flamer, multi melta = 109pts

 

You can take more damaging weapons per head for the devs, making them more effective. They can do everything a tactical squad can do. 

 

 

So the 5-man squads can be loaded out the same. But when you start to add on special/heavy weapons the Tac clearly has the advantage imho.

 

The 10 man tac squad can split into two separate units. I don't have the rules on me right now. Can the Devs do this? Also, what is the points cost of the 10 man dev squad with just two weapons? I would assume the same right? (as long as the weapons being selected are the same)

 

How are the devs getting the +1bs? Is that through the cherub? Man I wish I had my index with me right now :/

 

Anyway, I do see the points you guys are making and I would imagine that using Tacs in a competitive setting might not be the best way to go about it. But they still have a place I just need to find out what place that is. It is not the shelf lol!

 

I just can't see why GW would leave a unit type that has been the main purchase for every army for the past twenty years as useless. Then again, these are just indexes. Maybe when our codex releases Tacs will have more reasons to take them.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Aothaine

[Morticon]

Huzzah!! Break throught ^_^ 

 

So the 5-man squads can be loaded out the same. But when you start to add on special/heavy weapons the Tac clearly has the advantage imho.

 

The 10 man tac squad can split into two separate units. I don't have the rules on me right now. Can the Devs do this?
​Yup.  Devs have "combat squad". 

Also, what is the points cost of the 10 man dev squad with just two weapons? I would assume the same right? (as long as the weapons being selected are the same)
Would be identical to the tacs (only thing they cant get is flamer, meltagun, plasmagun - though can get combi variants of these)

 

How are the devs getting the +1bs? Is that through the cherub? Man I wish I had my index with me right now :/

Sarges get "Signum" - REALLY useful! Even better if you use it on the sarge to overcharge his combi-plasma!!

 

Anyway, I do see the points you guys are making and I would imagine that using Tacs in a competitive setting might not be the best way to go about it. But they still have a place I just need to find out what place that is. It is not the shelf lol!

 

I just can't see why GW would leave a unit type that has been the main purchase for every army for the past twenty years as useless. Then again, these are just indexes. Maybe when our codex releases Tacs will have more reasons to take them.

I'm with you. It's one of my primary gripes with marines.  I think tactical marines should count as double the amount of models for claiming- or SOMETHING to make them actually worthwhile. 

 

 

[Arkhanist]

 

 

So the 5-man squads can be loaded out the same. But when you start to add on special/heavy weapons the Tac clearly has the advantage imho.

 

The 10 man tac squad can split into two separate units. I don't have the rules on me right now. Can the Devs do this? Also, what is the points cost of the 10 man dev squad with just two weapons? I would assume the same right? (as long as the weapons being selected are the same)

 

How are the devs getting the +1bs? Is that through the cherub? Man I wish I had my index with me right now :/

 

Anyway, I do see the points you guys are making and I would imagine that using Tacs in a competitive setting might not be the best way to go about it. But they still have a place I just need to find out what place that is. It is not the shelf lol!

 

I just can't see why GW would leave a unit type that has been the main purchase for every army for the past twenty years as useless. Then again, these are just indexes. Maybe when our codex releases Tacs will have more reasons to take them.

 

 

Dev's can combat squad. They cost the same as tacs. The sgt gets the free signum for +1 to hit on any member of the unit. The cherub is a one-use item that lets them fire a weapon twice,. They can take more heavy weapons, but they can't take specials. BA devs can take heavy flamers; other chapters can't, so if you want a flamer in a codex unit or cheaper special vs a heavy, then a tac squad is better. The dev sgt can only swap his bolter for an upgrade, the tac sgt can swap pistol and/or bolter.

 

If you're already filling up your heavy slots, tacs can go in the troops without paying the hq tax for another detachment. Our codex might give some equivalent buff as obj secured for troops. A future chapter approved may well bump the cost of dev squads.

 

But right now? BA devs look overall more effective - pretty much anything you can do with a tac squad, you can do better with a dev squad for the same points. I'm painting my heavy weapon troops with magnetised helmets, and I've plenty of bolter marines to have blue and red head squads.

[9x19 Parabellum]

The only thing you guys aren't weighing in here is the opportunity cost of the Heavy Support Slot.  Ie, would you rather taking something besides devastators?  (like Land Raiders, for example)

[Xenith]

The only thing you guys aren't weighing in here is the opportunity cost of the Heavy Support Slot.  Ie, would you rather taking something besides devastators?  (like Land Raiders, for example)

 

The spearhead detachment with 3-6 Heavy Support slot cares not for your question. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

The only thing you guys aren't weighing in here is the opportunity cost of the Heavy Support Slot.  Ie, would you rather taking something besides devastators?  (like Land Raiders, for example)

 

The spearhead detachment with 3-6 Heavy Support slot cares not for your question. 

 

 

I know I *shouldn't* think thus, but after 15 years of playing fantasy, with minimum "core" (whether by # choices or as a % of your army) and several years of 40k with minimum "troop" choices, I just have a hard time with not feeling dirty playing the game in a way that doesn't require some troops.

[Quixus]

;)

 

You don't have to feel dirty about it. Playing the 9th Company with some auxiliaries is even fluffy.

[Charlo]

 

Similar with LC Preds. A 4 shot LC Pred only cost slighly more than 2 x  Razors with twin LC. Both are T7, Pred has one more wound than a single Razor but the same dmg output. 

 

You... WHAT.

 

Wow. "Balance" 

[TheHarrower]

 

 

The only thing you guys aren't weighing in here is the opportunity cost of the Heavy Support Slot.  Ie, would you rather taking something besides devastators?  (like Land Raiders, for example)

 

The spearhead detachment with 3-6 Heavy Support slot cares not for your question. 

 

 

I know I *shouldn't* think thus, but after 15 years of playing fantasy, with minimum "core" (whether by # choices or as a % of your army) and several years of 40k with minimum "troop" choices, I just have a hard time with not feeling dirty playing the game in a way that doesn't require some troops.

 

 

In a world now where people are taking 4 Storm Ravens, I don't think anyone will look down on you for not taking troops. I do understand the sentiment though. I actually just put together my first tac squad since 5th Edition. Never used them. Always did Assault Marines back in the day or Scouts. Not happy that they are kinda useless now, but we'll see what happens when the Codexes start to drop. They should get some sort of situational bonuses they can apply per turn as they are supposed to be the backbone of every Space Marine army.

[TheHarrower]

 

 

Similar with LC Preds. A 4 shot LC Pred only cost slighly more than 2 x  Razors with twin LC. Both are T7, Pred has one more wound than a single Razor but the same dmg output. 

 

You... WHAT.

 

Wow. "Balance" 

 

 

Need to take the Pred with the Auto Cannon. Heavy 2D3 S7 AP-1 3D per hit. It's sooo good!

[Calistarius]

 

 

Similar with LC Preds. A 4 shot LC Pred only cost slighly more than 2 x  Razors with twin LC. Both are T7, Pred has one more wound than a single Razor but the same dmg output.

 

 

You... WHAT.

 

Wow. "Balance" :teehee:

 

Need to take the Pred with the Auto Cannon. Heavy 2D3 S7 AP-1 3D per hit. It's sooo good!

Would it be worth the purchase to take a single one along with a Baal? I don't actually own a regulars Predator.

[TheHarrower]

 

 

 

Similar with LC Preds. A 4 shot LC Pred only cost slighly more than 2 x  Razors with twin LC. Both are T7, Pred has one more wound than a single Razor but the same dmg output.

 

You... WHAT.

 

Wow. "Balance" 

 

Need to take the Pred with the Auto Cannon. Heavy 2D3 S7 AP-1 3D per hit. It's sooo good!

Would it be worth the purchase to take a single one along with a Baal? I don't actually own a regulars Predator.

 

 

I just use one and it does the job. I haven't used a Baal. Not sure if I would unless I was using all flamers. Baal with AssCan is 142. Razor with AssCan is 100. 42 points goes a long way this edition and the differences are minor.