8th Ed BA Tactica.

[Quixus]

Just out of curiosity, squadrons are dead, aren't they? If you want three predators you have to fill three slots, right?

[Calistarius]

 

 

 

 

Similar with LC Preds. A 4 shot LC Pred only cost slighly more than 2 x  Razors with twin LC. Both are T7, Pred has one more wound than a single Razor but the same dmg output.

 

You... WHAT.

 

Wow. "Balance" 

 

Need to take the Pred with the Auto Cannon. Heavy 2D3 S7 AP-1 3D per hit. It's sooo good!

Would it be worth the purchase to take a single one along with a Baal? I don't actually own a regulars Predator.

 

 

I just use one and it does the job. I haven't used a Baal. Not sure if I would unless I was using all flamers. Baal with AssCan is 142. Razor with AssCan is 100. 42 points goes a long way this edition and the differences are minor.

 

I understand.  Baal pattern is all I have currently.  I'll look into getting the normal variant though.

[Quixus]

The twin asscan became a lot better in this edition (12 shots S6 AP -1 vs 4 rerollable S6 AP 4 shots), but the predator autocannon (woohoo we get those in 40K, I wonder if the heresy version will be even better, when those rules are updated) Is really deadly, it can potentially strip 18 wounds. Unlikely but it can happen.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

 

 

The only thing you guys aren't weighing in here is the opportunity cost of the Heavy Support Slot.  Ie, would you rather taking something besides devastators?  (like Land Raiders, for example)

 

The spearhead detachment with 3-6 Heavy Support slot cares not for your question. 

 

 

I know I *shouldn't* think thus, but after 15 years of playing fantasy, with minimum "core" (whether by # choices or as a % of your army) and several years of 40k with minimum "troop" choices, I just have a hard time with not feeling dirty playing the game in a way that doesn't require some troops.

 

 

In a world now where people are taking 4 Storm Ravens, I don't think anyone will look down on you for not taking troops. I do understand the sentiment though. I actually just put together my first tac squad since 5th Edition. Never used them. Always did Assault Marines back in the day or Scouts. Not happy that they are kinda useless now, but we'll see what happens when the Codexes start to drop. They should get some sort of situational bonuses they can apply per turn as they are supposed to be the backbone of every Space Marine army.

 

 

Guilliman should have written the Codex Astartes according to modern military theory, then Tacs would have a use.

 

Devastator Squads should not be their own unit.  Much like a heavy weapons platoon (in the US) doesn't all deploy out on patrol as one section, but rather gets busted up into small fireteams or squads that then get attached to rifle platoons.  Thus, a Tac squad should not be able to, on it's own, purchase anything heavier than special weapons, and then "attach" Devastator guns to their unit.  The whole Sgt. w/ Signum thing should be a TAC squad thing, not a Dev squad thing.

 

Oh well.

[TheHarrower]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Similar with LC Preds. A 4 shot LC Pred only cost slighly more than 2 x Razors with twin LC. Both are T7, Pred has one more wound than a single Razor but the same dmg output.

You... WHAT.

 

Wow. "Balance"

Need to take the Pred with the Auto Cannon. Heavy 2D3 S7 AP-1 3D per hit. It's sooo good!

Would it be worth the purchase to take a single one along with a Baal? I don't actually own a regulars Predator.

I just use one and it does the job. I haven't used a Baal. Not sure if I would unless I was using all flamers. Baal with AssCan is 142. Razor with AssCan is 100. 42 points goes a long way this edition and the differences are minor.

I understand. Baal pattern is all I have currently. I'll look into getting the normal variant though.

I think a Baal could work with heavy bolter sponsons. It's not optimal, but it should be okay. If that was all I had, I would certainly use it like that.

[Jolemai]

Just out of curiosity, squadrons are dead, aren't they? If you want three predators you have to fill three slots, right?

Yep. Just Attack Bikes and Land Speeders now.

[sebs_evo7]

 

 

 

I've got too many tacticals to not use them in my lists.

I had this problem too until I converted 20 of them to DC with bolters.

I haven't painted more than 10 of my Tac marines yet, so this is actually a possibility. I'd need to find some Chainswords without hands on them to add to their backpacks so it still meets WYSIWYG requirements... Anyone know of a good bits place that sells handless chainswords? Need about 20!

Burning of prospero mk3 marines has 10

[durdle-durdle]

had a couple games recently, main highlight point is:

 

retreating out of combat keeps messing me up, i don't know how to plan for that.  every game, when i make my charge, i do well in combat...then the opponent backs up and lights up my guys now standing in the open.  more and more i feel like we'd be better off playing red marines with death co or sanguinary guard or something for surgical strikes.  My close combat army now seems to be tilting further and further to a shooting army with a few jump pack assassin units.  It works fine for slightly more elite armies like eldar/other space marines, but against horde armies like guard (the person i play the most), cultist spam chaos, orks even, who are able to just fill their whole side of the board, having deep striking close combat guys seems more of a liability than ever.  i find myself holding my guys until turn 2-3 to deep strike frequently into terrain and try to rush in the next turn.  the shooting needs to obliterate the front and really weaken the enemy before i can make my glorious charges and finish them off.

 

or maybe i just need to go whole hog into it and bring nothing but jump pack marines.  doubt it, but to be fair, i haven't really tried it.

[Brother_Angelus]

My buddy is running 6 storm ravens in an upcoming 2000 GT. Doesn't sound too fun to play with or against but man that's ridiculous.

Is he running a skyshield landing pad with them? You could probably fit 3 flyer bases on one...

[Quixus]

 

My buddy is running 6 storm ravens in an upcoming 2000 GT. Doesn't sound too fun to play with or against but man that's ridiculous.

Is he running a skyshield landing pad with them? You could probably fit 3 flyer bases on one...

 

No more need for the landing pad. Flyers can start on the board.

 

BTW are there 8th edition rules for the landing pad already?

[Brother_Angelus]

 

 

My buddy is running 6 storm ravens in an upcoming 2000 GT. Doesn't sound too fun to play with or against but man that's ridiculous.

Is he running a skyshield landing pad with them? You could probably fit 3 flyer bases on one...

 

No more need for the landing pad. Flyers can start on the board.

 

BTW are there 8th edition rules for the landing pad already?

 

There are, which is why I suggested one.

 

Cost 110pts in matched.

Flaps up = 5++ for anyone on it

Flaps down = Units with the Flyer role heal D3 wounds at the end of a turn if they spent all turn on top.

 

Deploy on pad, drop into hover mode, sit 3 ravens there and blast anything in range with a 5++, then heal up once wounded. Sit a techmarine between them for extra cheese. Filthy.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Brother_Angelus

[Quixus]

Thanks, but where can I find it?

[Jolemai]

Imperium II

[Are Verlo]

Similar with LC Preds. A 4 shot LC Pred only cost slighly more than 2 x  Razors with twin LC. Both are T7, Pred has one more wound than a single Razor but the same dmg output. 

 

I tried really really hard to find instances where fewer models (1 pred vs 2 razors) would be better. I found that most buffs are auras and the only  "single model buff" I found was the Rhino primaris Servo-skull hub "Add 1 to hit rolls for a single friendly <chapter> unit within 12" of this model until the end of the phase". And if you for some strange reason need to cast some psychic power on one unit (veil of time and might of heroes from the librarius and our two BA buffs). Why we would want/need this is a whole different matter (grasping for straws).

99.99% of the time 2 razors with LC would be better than a laspred.

 

So I guess the next step would be a alter the basecost of the predator or rise the cost of the razorback? My guess is it´s easier to tweak the model cost, if they adjust the cost of weapons it would affect many more units and this issue seems related to the basecost of the vehicles?

1 "naked" pred=102

1 "naked" razor=65

And for those points all you get is a single wound?

 

Let´s compare a razor to a chimera. Both are dedicated transports.

Razor 65 pts

Chimera 75 pts

They have almost identical statlines. Their damage charts are equal (decrease at the same rate with damage suffered)

The razor has a 3+ BS vs the chimera´s 4+

The razor can transport 6 infantry vs the chimera´s 12 and the chimera has 2 lasgun-arrays (cost 0 points)

 

 

Lets look at the rhino

Same statline, transports 10 infantry, self-repair and a cost of 70 pts

 

Comparing these 3 transports to eachother and to the predator leads me to conclude the base price of the predator is the issue here.

 

Edit: grammar (probably more mistakes and typos in here) and the marine tanks have 1 higher LD than the chimera. This might influence wounds suffered from abilities that target LD, such as purge soul from the sanctic discepline (not very often in other words)

Edited June 30, 2017 by Are Verlo

[Aothaine]

While I agree that Razorbacks are really good you can't just compare the points of a Razorback to a Predator. Razorbacks require you to have a unit to purchase. Sure we're all going to have plenty of units to purchase the Razorbacks. I'm just reminding everyone that can be a drawback in certain elite lists.

 

Also, transports are usually on the move. This means they will have the -1 to hit with those heavy weapons your throwing on them. The preds can stay stationary and fire at normal BS. 

 

And about the Baal Pred. It is a beast! Both the AC/HB and FC/HF variants. Lets take a little look at the Flamer Baal.

 

Turbo Boost: +2 on Advance roll.

Assault Weapons: Can fire after advancing at -1

All Flamers: Auto Hit with all attacks

Vehicle: Kind of difficult to get rid of

 

So you have a tank that starts forward in deployment, hopefully in cover if you don't have first turn, and rushes forward toward your enemy. Advances. Then, hopefully, is in range to unleash torrents of flames into the enemy lines. 

 

Now, think about your opponent. Lets say you have three of these beasts charging down the board ready to toast your forces. Do you focus fire down the three Baal Preds? Attack the dangerous units following them (possibly in Razorbacks), or attack the close combat death guard or terminators that just popped into being on your back line?

 

Normal preds cannot put that kind of pressure on someone. Sure they shoot their las cannons.. Do a lot of wounds too. But they are far back and not always on the mind. 

 

Putting pressure on your enemy causing erratic decisions to be made and increases your chance of winning. In my mind the Baal excels at what Blood Angel armies are all about. Assault & Pressure.

 

I watched a batrep a week or two ago on Table Top Tactics. Grey Knights vs. Necrons. The Grey Knights just surrounded the Necrons entirely. I thought it was silly at first but it broke the opponent's lines. When you can expose elements of your opponent's army to things they should not be handling you put yourself at the advantage. 

 

Another really cool thing I've been looking into with Terminators is the beacon teleport. You can drop your termies on one side of the board cush a unit with fire power or melee then teleport right out over to the beacon after screwing with your opponents lines.

 

There is a TON of stuff I still need to learn about 8th ed. But the more I look into it the more I am excited about 8th and what it holds in store for Blood Angels & successors.

[Karhedron]

retreating out of combat keeps messing me up, i don't know how to plan for that.  every game, when i make my charge, i do well in combat...then the opponent backs up and lights up my guys now standing in the open.

This is a tricky one and I think it comes down to timing and positioning your assaults. If you assault the centre, your opponent will have lots of units to shoot at your exposed guys. If you assault on the flanks, more distant units will not be able to assist.

 

Also, a unit that withdraws from combat cannot itself shoot that turn (unless it has "FLY" or a special rule). What this means is that you may need to co-ordinate 2-3 units assaulting at once. That way, even if your opponent withdraws all his units, a big chunk of his army will not be able to shoot that turn.

 

If you are running transports, you may even want to use them to charge an entirely different unit (just to hamper its shooting next turn) as opposed to charging the same unit in order to eat overwatch fire.

 

I think that assault is still effective but it is harder to pull off successfully. You need to plan and co-ordinate your assaults by bearing in mind that unengaged enemy nearby may well end up shooting your assault units if you do not deal with them in some way.

[Xenith]

Couple of things, not wanting to be a downer:

 

 
And about the Baal Pred. It is a beast! Both the AC/HB and FC/HF variants. Lets take a little look at the Flamer Baal.
 
Turbo Boost: +2 on Advance roll.

It's roll 2 and pick the highest, not +2, meaning 75% of the time the advance move will be 4" or more.

Assault Weapons: Can fire after advancing at -1

Heavy flamers, flamestorm cannon, assault cannons and heavy bolters are all heavy weapons. The flamestorm is only listed as assault in the Baal entry. In the redeemer and index at the back it's heavy D6, it's 2v1 in favour of heavy weapon.

 

I think ultimately, the 2x heavy flamerback also beats the 1x flamerbaal.

[Aothaine]

Couple of things, not wanting to be a downer:

 

 

And about the Baal Pred. It is a beast! Both the AC/HB and FC/HF variants. Lets take a little look at the Flamer Baal.

 

Turbo Boost: +2 on Advance roll.

It's roll 2 and pick the highest, not +2, meaning 75% of the time the advance move will be 4" or more.

Assault Weapons: Can fire after advancing at -1

Heavy flamers, flamestorm cannon, assault cannons and heavy bolters are all heavy weapons. The flamestorm is only listed as assault in the Baal entry. In the redeemer and index at the back it's heavy D6, it's 2v1 in favour of heavy weapon.

 

I think ultimately, the 2x heavy flamerback also beats the 1x flamerbaal.

 

You're good man! I remember things differently when I'm at work. Corrections are appreciated. Also, wouldn't you go off the Baal entry for the weapon? I mean.. I would over the profile for the weapon in the back. The profile on the back is general weapon profiles and if the weapon profile is special for the unit then you would include it on the unit's profile.

 

Maybe there is an FAQ I missed?

 

I also am not sure two heavy flamer razorbacks would beat the flamerbaal though. I'll run some tests later. Are the heavy flamers listed on the Baal profile?

 

Edit: Just found a copy of the Baal Profile. Why would they make the flamestorm assault and leave the heavy flamers as heavy support? That doesn't make any sense.... Maybe you are supposed to advance on the first turn then just do a normal move on the second? The -1 to hit won't matter because of auto hit.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Aothaine

[Are Verlo]

There are so many ways to include a razorback.

You can even buy a razor for the predator since you can buy one DT for almost any slot.

People buy LC razors to form a carpark near some reroll and they do this more efficient than Predators. If you actually need to bring some marines to the frontline a rhino will do so for less points :-).

On the Baals you are spot on, its a beast with flamestorm+2HF

[Aothaine]

There are so many ways to include a razorback.

You can even buy a razor for the predator since you can buy one DT for almost any slot.

People buy LC razors to form a carpark near some reroll and they do this more efficient than Predators. If you actually need to bring some marines to the frontline a rhino will do so for less points :-).

On the Baals you are spot on, its a beast with flamestorm+2HF

 

I expect 'how to take transports' to get FAQed into common sense.

[Quixus]

No amount of FAQ can change that you can take one unit of the DT type for each unit of any other type. If they want to restrict the DT enabling units, they need to issue an erratum.

[TheHarrower]

 

 

Aothaine, on 30 Jun 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

While I agree that Razorbacks are really good you can't just compare the points of a Razorback to a Predator. Razorbacks require you to have a unit to purchase. Sure we're all going to have plenty of units to purchase the Razorbacks. I'm just reminding everyone that can be a drawback in certain elite lists.

I don't see how this is a drawback at all. I can literally take a Razorback for any unit I put on the table. Even if we say it's only a Razor for every infantry unit you put on a table, I still have more than I would ever need.

 

Also, transports are usually on the move. This means they will have the -1 to hit with those heavy weapons your throwing on them. The preds can stay stationary and fire at normal BS.

Again, no benefit to the Pred at all. They don't need to be on the move. I'm not required to embark units in them, and I can use them exactly like a Baal. I typically park my Razors around midfield and blast away. My Razors move around slightly more than my Pred because I use an Autocannon Pred w/ Las and it just parks in my deployment zone. Razors have less range, but really it's the same thing. You can use a Baal and a Razor exactly the same.

 

Normal preds cannot put that kind of pressure on someone. Sure they shoot their las cannons.. Do a lot of wounds too. But they are far back and not always on the mind.

I couldn't disagree more. An Autocannon Pred with Las has the potential to strip 30 wounds per turn. If the person I'm playing doesn't want to focus down on it, well good for me and it's going to be a long game for them. Its a major target priority issue because a couple Razors are midfield pumping out 12 shots a turn, the Pred is backfield tearing off chunks of wounds, not to mention any units in their grill that deployed via deepstrike. If it doesn't put any pressure on my opponent (which in most cases it certainly does) that's a bonus. Not a negative.

 

And about the Baal Pred. It is a beast! Both the AC/HB and FC/HF variants. Lets take a little look at the Flamer Baal.

Advance is a reroll. Not a flat +2. Heavy Flamers on a Baal are heavy, not assault. So just the Flamestorm can move and fire. And a Baal is literally only 1 wound tougher than a Razor.

 

In my mind the Baal excels at what Blood Angel armies are all about. Assault & Pressure.

While I agree they are all about assault and pressure, Razor does it better for cheaper and has the bonus of being able to protect a unit inside and ferry them across the battlefield. Even a Heavy Flamer Razor is better than a Flamestorm Baal because the weapons are assault on that chassis. I wish they were better, I have 3 of them and it is my favorite tank, but alas Razor and autocannon/las Preds are where it's at. And don't even get me started on what happened to the poor Vindicator this edition.

[durdle-durdle]

So I just noticed the sternguard special issue bolter is 30" range with -2 ap. So for the same cost as a death co guy with up, we can get a sternie with a solid anti infantry weapon that can also do decent damage against vehicles. With 30" range, they can reach out and touch the enemy pretty easy too. I'm considering trying a unit of 10 in a pod (gasp) for my next game. With the 15" rapid fire range, I can probably land the pod close to a good terrain piece for them to go in for a 2+ save. The pod I'm kinda meh on but they're tougher now, and an opponent will have to actually have to try and destroy it instead of using just pot shots to kill it. The vengeance launcher is decent too. I don't think it'll kill its points back, but that's not entirely the point.

 

/ramble

 

Edit: hk missles for 1.2 meltabombs, worth it for a single s8 ap-2 d6 damage shot?

Edited June 30, 2017 by durdle-durdle

[Jolemai]

Krak missiles have improved massively and HKMs have had a price drop. Couple that with split fire and I'd say yes on almost all platforms - the stormbolter is worth more though imo.

[Are Verlo]

The HF+ flamestorm has a nasty overwatch. Vs msu armies like gsc you might get lucky and your opponent will fail a charge, thus possibly letting you overwatch once more if he assaults with another unit.

 

Optimal (but unlikely) scenario: you move the baal up and shoot 2 HF and flamestorm. You get charged and shoot again with all weapons. You have now done more damage than 2 HF backs would have done with one shooting phase and overwatch from one vehicle.

 

And the flamestorm have a few adantages over HF

Vs T 3 it wounds on 2+, and it has a -2 save mod and does 2 damage.

 

2 HFbacks are ace, but the "infernobaal" is a beast too and does great damage Vs the right targets (T3, T5 and T6 are all wounded easier by S6) and the flamestorm does 2 damage per failed save.

 

Summed up both the HFrazors and infernobaals are great :-D

 

Edit: typing on my phone after I put the kids to bed, this post was incoherent rambling

Edited June 30, 2017 by Are Verlo