OrbOfAntioch Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 Couple of technical rule questions: 1. Charging out of LoS to avoid Overwatch -I've never encountered this based on the 3 games I played. In what real world situation would this materialize? Is this something that can be abused with certain set ups? 2. Overwatch + Modifiers -Can overwatch be modified? -For instance Tzeench have something that gives them -1 to hit, which would make overwatch on a 7+ -Or on the flip side sometimes we get +1 to hit or rerolls, etc. 3. Order of would allocation -I could be wrong, but I read the saving throw and would allocation is two separate things -So if 2 lascannons got through, and rolled a 1 and a 6, against 2 multi-wound models, can I assign the 1 would first, and then the 6 wound on the same model? -So in other words, instead of losing 1 model and then 1 wound on a 2nd, I could just lose 1 model by this logic, assigning the 1 and then the 6 on the same guy. Thoughts..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 Couple of technical rule questions: 1. Charging out of LoS to avoid Overwatch -I've never encountered this based on the 3 games I played. In what real world situation would this materialize? Is this something that can be abused with certain set ups? 2. Overwatch + Modifiers -Can overwatch be modified? -For instance Tzeench have something that gives them -1 to hit, which would make overwatch on a 7+ -Or on the flip side sometimes we get +1 to hit or rerolls, etc. 3. Order of would allocation -I could be wrong, but I read the saving throw and would allocation is two separate things -So if 2 lascannons got through, and rolled a 1 and a 6, against 2 multi-wound models, can I assign the 1 would first, and then the 6 wound on the same model? -So in other words, instead of losing 1 model and then 1 wound on a 2nd, I could just lose 1 model by this logic, assigning the 1 and then the 6 on the same guy. Thoughts..? The first scenario actually happened to me already! ...my sniper scouts were on the top of a bunker. Being all low-profile models they couldn't see the unit surrounding the bunker below... that unit charged my scouts and I couldn't get Overwatch. I think overwatch is always 6+ unless specifically stated otherwise. The Eldar (dark reapers I think?) have a unit that always hits like old-poison, but it doesn't work on overwatch. Last one, I'm not sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherMax Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 Good way to use LoS / Overwatch is run a jump pack assault unit up behind a tank to screen it. Keep out of sight, jump over and assault without taking ocerwatch. Re point 3, wounds are always allocated to models that are already wounded first. Fidelius Animo, Chaplain Gunzhard and dusara217 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 (edited) 3. Order of would allocation-I could be wrong, but I read the saving throw and would allocation is two separate things-So if 2 lascannons got through, and rolled a 1 and a 6, against 2 multi-wound models, can I assign the 1 would first, and then the 6 wound on the same model?-So in other words, instead of losing 1 model and then 1 wound on a 2nd, I could just lose 1 model by this logic, assigning the 1 and then the 6 on the same guy. You want to check stage 3 of 'resolve attacks', pg 181, and 'fast dice rolling' pg 179. Attacks are dealt with one at a time, in order - you can only mass roll hits and wounds, from weapons with the same BS, S, AP and damage. As the owner of the unit being shot at, you pick the model from the unit that takes the hit after he successfully beats toughness (mixed toughness units are now very rare, and should always have special rules to cover it). So that may determine what saving throw they have to make, e.g. you could take it on a storm shield guy or a normal guy depending upon the weapon if it was a vet squad. In this case, we'll assume SG, so all 2+ save and 2 wounds. At stage 3, you have to allocate the hit to any already wounded model if there are any. So assuming you took the two lascannon hits that wounded, and there weren't any already wounded, then one guy would be knocked to one wound. All subsequent attacks have to go on that guy until he's dead. Aassuming you also failed save on the 2nd lascannon, regardless of your opponent's damage roll (cos he's only got 1 wound!), it'd kill the 1st guy and damage doesn't roll over so it'd be 1 dead SG total. If the damage roll order were reversed and assuming failed saves, the 6 would kill the first guy, and the 2nd guy would be left on 1 wound - all future wounding attacks would go on him until dead. Edited July 9, 2017 by Arkhanist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudan Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Am I understanding the Tarantula Forge World unit correctly? x3 Tarantulas with twin Assault Cannons for a total of 129 points? That's (36) S6, AP1 shots hitting on 4+, wounding MEQ on 3+? 12 wounds average per turn? The turrets have (4) wounds each, with no degradation from early wounds. You could potentially exercise a lot of board control against many different opponents for a modest investment of points. A potential counter to mob assaults? The Tarantula unit has the <chapter> keyword, so can possibly accept some buffs? The twin assault cannon variant of Tarantula has no description of that variant's behavior from the Automated Artillery rule, unlike those carrying Heavy Bolters or twin Lascannons. Does this mean the TAC version can target Infantry or Non-Infantry at-will? The4thHorseman 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 The twin assault cannon variant of Tarantula has no description of that variant's behavior from the Automated Artillery rule, unlike those carrying Heavy Bolters or twin Lascannons. Does this mean the TAC version can target Infantry or Non-Infantry at-will? No. It's not greatly worded and I wish they'd cleaned it up in the FAQ, but it must target the closest unit. "If there are none of the specified types of unit in range then the closest unit of any kind must be targeted." TLAC/MM versions don't have a specified type, but it's still subject to this rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riot Earp Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Razorback and Honourgard Spam is winning Tournament. It is not a BA list but sure a thing Ba can build in similar. Imperium: Space Marines (Ultra Marines), Astra Militarium– 1850 PunkteDetachments: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, Vanguard DetachmentCommand points: 7Warlord: Roboute Guilliman – Warlord Trait: Tenacious SurvivorImperium: Vanguard Detachment1 HQTempestor Prime+ Tempestus command rod -> 0 Pkt.- - - > 40 Punkte3 Standard5 Militarum Tempestus Scions, 2 x Hot-shot lasgun, 2 x Plasma gun+ Tempestor, Chainsword, Hot-shot laspistol -> 1 Pkt.- - - > 62 Punkte5 Militarum Tempestus Scions, 2 x Hot-shot lasgun, 2 x Plasma gun+ Tempestor, Chainsword, Hot-shot laspistol -> 1 Pkt.- - - > 62 Punkte20 Conscripts- - - > 60 Punkte5 EliteHonour Guard, 1 x Power axe, 1 x Power sword- - - > 51 PunkteHonour Guard, 1 x Power axe, 1 x Power sword- - - > 51 PunkteHonour Guard, 1 x Power axe, 1 x Power sword- - - > 51 PunkteHonour Guard, 1 x Power axe, 1 x Power sword- - - > 51 PunkteHonour Guard, 1 x Power axe, 1 x Power sword- - - > 51 Punkte9 TransporterRazorback, Twin assault cannon, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter- - - > 108 PunkteRazorback, Twin assault cannon, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter- - - > 108 PunkteRazorback, Twin assault cannon, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter- - - > 108 PunkteRazorback, Twin assault cannon, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter- - - > 108 PunkteRazorback, Twin assault cannon, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter- - - > 108 PunkteRazorback, Twin assault cannon, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter- - - > 108 PunkteRazorback, Twin lascannon, Hunter-killer missile- - - > 121 PunkteRazorback, Twin lascannon, Hunter-killer missile- - - > 121 PunkteRazorback, Twin lascannon, Hunter-killer missile- - - > 121 PunkteImperium: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 360 Punkte1 Lord of WarRoboute Guilliman- - - > 360 Punkte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 That is disgusting. * Doesn't mean I disprove! it's quite ingenious in its own way. Karhedron and Remtek 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riot Earp Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 There is one list similar to that in my uppcomming turney. But on they other side there is also an Necron Pylon. My Stormravens and Knight Atropos are not happy with that amount of firepower! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 The twin assault cannon variant of Tarantula has no description of that variant's behavior from the Automated Artillery rule, unlike those carrying Heavy Bolters or twin Lascannons. Does this mean the TAC version can target Infantry or Non-Infantry at-will? No. It's not greatly worded and I wish they'd cleaned it up in the FAQ, but it must target the closest unit. "If there are none of the specified types of unit in range then the closest unit of any kind must be targeted." TLAC/MM versions don't have a specified type, but it's still subject to this rule. Only the HB and LC have targeting restrictions, the AC & MM don't. Might not be the intent, but it's certainly the rules as written! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Razorback and Honourgard Spam is winning Tournament. It is not a BA list but sure a thing Ba can build in similar. Imperium: Space Marines (Ultra Marines), Astra Militarium– 1850 PunkteDetachments: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, Vanguard Detachment Command points: 7 Warlord: Roboute Guilliman – Warlord Trait: Tenacious Survivor Imperium: Vanguard Detachment 1 HQ Tempestor Prime + Tempestus command rod -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 40 Punkte 3 Standard 5 Militarum Tempestus Scions, 2 x Hot-shot lasgun, 2 x Plasma gun + Tempestor, Chainsword, Hot-shot laspistol -> 1 Pkt. - - - > 62 Punkte 5 Militarum Tempestus Scions, 2 x Hot-shot lasgun, 2 x Plasma gun + Tempestor, Chainsword, Hot-shot laspistol -> 1 Pkt. - - - > 62 Punkte 20 Conscripts - - - > 60 Punkte 5 Elite Honour Guard, 1 x Power axe, 1 x Power sword - - - > 51 Punkte Honour Guard, 1 x Power axe, 1 x Power sword - - - > 51 Punkte Honour Guard, 1 x Power axe, 1 x Power sword - - - > 51 Punkte Honour Guard, 1 x Power axe, 1 x Power sword - - - > 51 Punkte Honour Guard, 1 x Power axe, 1 x Power sword - - - > 51 Punkte 9 Transporter Razorback, Twin assault cannon, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter - - - > 108 Punkte Razorback, Twin assault cannon, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter - - - > 108 Punkte Razorback, Twin assault cannon, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter - - - > 108 Punkte Razorback, Twin assault cannon, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter - - - > 108 Punkte Razorback, Twin assault cannon, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter - - - > 108 Punkte Razorback, Twin assault cannon, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter - - - > 108 Punkte Razorback, Twin lascannon, Hunter-killer missile - - - > 121 Punkte Razorback, Twin lascannon, Hunter-killer missile - - - > 121 Punkte Razorback, Twin lascannon, Hunter-killer missile - - - > 121 Punkte Imperium: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 360 Punkte 1 Lord of War Roboute Guilliman - - - > 360 Punkte how many people played in the tourney? and what all did this list face? Did it play to the mission against air raid? How did it fair against monoliths/T8+Spam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riot Earp Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 You can find the other lists here. https://www.gw-fanworld.net/showthread.php/232705-Ratisbona-Masters-Armeelisten Turney rules are here.https://www.tabletopturniere.de/t3_tournament.php?tid=18609 All in german although. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 I think I'm going to build an all comers list. It seems like the best option. I need to invest in one more razorback, a storm raven and a storm hawk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrbOfAntioch Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 For those interested and mathematically gifted... Determine: -Probability of Successful Hits as a result of Rerolls benefitted from Chapter Master vs. Captain on BS3? -Chapter Master: Reroll All Misses -Captain: Reroll 1s -Sensitivity analysis calibrated for modifier: +1 /-1 to hit, etc Purpose: -Enabling alpha strike shooting rerolls will be his main purpose of Dante/Captain for the army, as opposed to being a beatstick or enabling charge rerolls. -I want to see if Dante is the cost (10% of the army in a normal competitive game vs >5% for a captain) -In this scarnario, said character would JPA into the field with my SRs and JPA suicide melta/plasmas, and blow things out of water before they can optimally respond -Against a competent opponent, said character will not survive for very long to fufill his full potential in other roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidelius Animo Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) For those interested and mathematically gifted... Determine: -Probability of Successful Hits as a result of Rerolls benefitted from Chapter Master vs. Captain on BS3? -Chapter Master: Reroll All Misses -Captain: Reroll 1s -Sensitivity analysis calibrated for modifier: +1 /-1 to hit, etc Purpose: -Enabling alpha strike shooting rerolls will be his main purpose of Dante/Captain for the army, as opposed to being a beatstick or enabling charge rerolls. -I want to see if Dante is the cost (10% of the army in a normal competitive game vs >5% for a captain) -In this scarnario, said character would JPA into the field with my SRs and JPA suicide melta/plasmas, and blow things out of water before they can optimally respond -Against a competent opponent, said character will not survive for very long to fufill his full potential in other roles. Marines get the absolute least value out of any global rerolls to hit. At 3+ base they're only going to benefit from Dante 1/3 of the time vs Capt 1/6th. 21 shots (because simple math) with 3+ to hit and zero modifiers means 14 hit and 7 miss. With Dante you Can assume that 4/7 of those misses will turn to hits So 18/21 With captain we can assume that 3-4 of those misses will be 1s so about 2/7 of the original misses become hits 16/21 So double the number of additional hits is huge statistical improvement. Tactically however if you're using Dante as part of a suicide squad it seems like a waste, since 2 shots out of 21 means that you're at best jumping in with 10 plasma guns if you're looking at getting good value out of him. The modifiers really don't play any role in the statistics because only the actual dice roll matters in 8th for rerolls not the modifiers. Edit: let me amend my statement about modifiers. Dante is far far superior to a captain of you're running a plasma gun suicide squad and your opponent has an ability that gives you a negative modifier. Marines always miss on 2s but in 8th a roll of a 2 with a modifier of -1 will trigger the plasma over load rule. So if you're shooting plasma at flyers and/or shooting a heavy plasma cannon on anything without power of the machine spirit, you're going to be much happier with Dante because while he won't radically increase the raw number of hits he does reduce the number of supercharge casualties which is arguably doubly useful Source https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf Edited July 11, 2017 by Fidelius Animo Crimson Ghost IX 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceMarineKen Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) Hey guys, new blood angels player here! I'm just curious if a 5 man DC squad in a razorback would have enough staying power on the board. I want to put 5 with bolt pistol and chain sword in for dealing with infantry. Edited July 11, 2017 by SpaceMarineKen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Reaver Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 So, that razorback list. It can pump out a disgusting amount of shots but what is the purpose of those honor guard squads? Cheap points? Also, what do you think is the best way of taking out those storm ravens? Everyone is running 3+ and I am tired of it. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidelius Animo Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) So, that razorback list. It can pump out a disgusting amount of shots but what is the purpose of those honor guard squads? Cheap points? Also, what do you think is the best way of taking out those storm ravens? Everyone is running 3+ and I am tired of it. Thanks Jump pack charges with thunder hammers Company/Vanguard vets get 5xTH/SS and JO for 44 or 43 points respectively. If your already building towards melee centric buffs you're likely taking Astorath and Mephiston. Mass of Doom means your hitting on 3+ and Mephiston means your striking a total of 16 times, wounding on 3s (even without SPriest) and they only get a 6 save. So assuming modal dice results 11 hits, 7 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds = 15 damage as your most common result. By contrast DC jump troops but say power swords you're looking at 9 D.C. For the same cost. Those 9 D.C. get 36 attacks Hit on 2s wound in 5s and have the same -3 ap. They only do about 9 unsaved wounds with modal results. Enough to knock the Storm raven down to 4+BS but not enough to kill it Edited July 11, 2017 by Fidelius Animo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Ghost IX Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 So, that razorback list. It can pump out a disgusting amount of shots but what is the purpose of those honor guard squads? Cheap points? Also, what do you think is the best way of taking out those storm ravens? Everyone is running 3+ and I am tired of it. Thanks Cheap squads allow for the volume of Razorbacks taken. That army counters the stromravens perhaps. Both Razorbacks and Stormravens are about to get "an adjustment" I would warrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I'm enjoying using 2-3 Razors in my lists..... seeing people take the unit to excess has me a little worried it might get nerfed and ruin my fun! Let's just hope they don't have much success with such 1 dimensional lists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Ghost IX Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Hey guys, new blood angels player here! I'm just curious if a 5 man DC squad in a razorback would have enough staying power on the board. I want to put 5 with bolt pistol and chain sword in for dealing with infantry. Heya ! Death Company are not what they used to be. They are decent still (especailly against horde infantry), but mostly get killed pretty fast when it comes to taking damage on the table - but so does most everything infantry. Trick is to hide in the transport and try and get a good round of engagement before you buy the farm with death company in this case. They are rather cheap for what they can do on the charge still. The trick can be getting that charge off. Consider a character to buff them (or better yet several units of them stepping off the rides). Power Sword with priest or Power Axe and Chainsword > bolt pistol and chainsword. A few Thunderhammers can be amazing depending on what you have planned and are fighting. Save pistol points for troops with jump packs I feel (plasma). So you don't shoot yourself out of charge range etc. Look at what chaplains (and others) do for them. Also: I prefer my razorbacks to sit and shoot at full BS with their long range lascannon. Not advance to the enemy to drop off DC myself. Although it's a nice option in a pinch. Not saying my way is the best, it is just I prefer a razorback for fire support rather than transport if I am taking it currently. Your Results May Vary depending on what you have planned. Maybe a bigger squad in a Rhino, Raider, Raven tho to achieve some mass is better than 5 guys in a razorback going forward? DC are one of our better unit options for tranporting forward inside something prolly. But give them some teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Both Razorbacks and Stormravens are about to get "an adjustment" I would warrant. I am not so sure. The Marine codex is imminent which means it would only have been published a month or so after the Index lists. My hunch is they won't have had access to significantly more playtest data for the Marine list that they did for the index so points costs probably won't change much. More likely it will just have more rules for near-codex Chapter Traits. We will have to wait for Chapter Approved (around Christmas IIRC) before we see any modified points values I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Hey guys, new blood angels player here! I'm just curious if a 5 man DC squad in a razorback would have enough staying power on the board. I want to put 5 with bolt pistol and chain sword in for dealing with infantry. Hi Ken, Staying power is maybe the wrong way to judge the unit. Alone and unsupported, 5 men and a razorback will die fast. Add in other tanks, and deepstriking units to help them out. The unit itself is fine. The main thing to ask yourself is: do I think this unit is cool, and do I want to use it in games? That should over ride every other aspect. Dont-Be-Haten and Karhedron 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 5 DC in a Razorback are not terribly scary but then they only cost around 200 points. 6 squads of 5 DC in 6 Razorbacks in a Vanguard detachment backed up by a few choice HQs and a dash of heavy support and you have a whole different ball game. Most lists will only have the firepower to stop 1 or 2 before the rest hit their lines. The DC can mulch light infantry fairly effectively. Chuck in Thunder hammer and cheap power sword into each squad and they can threaten MEQs and vehicles effectively too. As Xenith says, a single unit without support will struggle to accomplish much. But DC and Razorbacks are both quite effective for their points so the question becomes "How can I make best use of them". It doesn't have to be a tide of Death Company either. While they are advancing, your Terminators can be teleporting in behind their lines while a Storm Raven strafes their positions and Sanguinary Guard advance behind the Razorback using it as mobile cover. Xenith 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maakeff Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 6 squads of 5 DC in 6 Razorbacks in a Vanguard detachment backed up by a few choice HQs and a dash of heavy support and you have a whole different ball game.If you're doing that, may as well do 2 Vanguard Detachments and get an extra CP. :-) Basic DC on foot, I'd be inclined to run with bolters and chainswords, rather than pistols and chainswords. Other than that, sounds like a great blitzkreig BA list concept. :-) Edited July 11, 2017 by Maakeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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