Dark Imperium Spoilers/Plot Summary (Read Along)

[karden00]

Hmmmm I'm not sure I agree. I feel like the notion of some tradeoffs has been a subject of long and healthy debate.

 

I'm not saying I feel conclusively about it one way or the other, but I think I liked at least some room for ambiguity more than an utterly imbalanced bitchslap.

 

As far as I can recall, it was always something of a mutual kill. And didn't it happen on the planet?

[Robbienw]

Primarchs are greater daemon level combat power anyway though, there are several examples in the heresy series of greater daemons being battered by primarchs, so I don't think they should be badly outclassed by a daemon primarch. Edited July 6, 2017 by Robbienw

[Scribe]

Again though, what has been written or argued about before is fine, but what actually makes SENSE?

 

Primarch's have always been (claimed to be) connected to the Warp. Lets power them up a bit, go over 9000, and then have them fight those NOT powered up.

 

I'm saying this in a 'My Dad could beat your Dad' way, but cheap, brute, raw power, should be on the side of a Daemon Primarch, with extra vulnerability to say, GK type shenanigans....almost like there is a point to gaining power, while making yourself vulnerable to a McGuffin. 

 

Its the only sensible way to look at it.

[Mellow]

Guilliman was NEVER going to beat Daemon Fulgrim.

 

He has multiple arms, multiple swords. He was doomed and always will be doomed.

 

A Daemon Primarch is literally everything a Primarch is. But with elevated power levels. It amazes me that there could be any other outcome. Just look at the siege. Angron didn't fight Sanguinius and he lived a little longer. Sanguinius fights Daemon Horus and he dies with no visible damage being inflicted on Horus. Daemon Fulgrim beats Guilliman.

 

That's the proof in the pudding. They are outclassed and the good guys in most stories always are.

 

The only weakness I see is something similar to the Grey Knights.

[Marshal Rohr]

Power levels aren't real. It's a figment of imagination.

[Mellow]

Never before have I seen such a heretical post.

[karden00]

By that logic, isn't a chaos space marine a space marine with elevated power levels? And yet they routinely get crunched by their loyal counterparts. There is nothing in established canon that says a chaos space marine is everything a space marine is, just better.

I want to stress again that I don't think I have any real problem with daemon Fulgrim outclassing Bobby G, but to present it as so one sided is unusual for gw and I think that certainty is harmful to the fluff more than it is helpful.

 

On the point of Horus and sanguunius... that is an entirely different ball game. I'm not convinced that what happened to Horus on Molech was daemonic ascension. Was he a daemon? We know he was described as beyond recognition, and positively writhing in warp power. But does this mean he was a daemon or heavily imbued with the stuff of chaos? Is it even useful to try to push for that distinction?

I always thought of a daemon prince to be a daemon that had taken up house in a fleshy body. And in so doing utterly overpowers/discards the other soul. Is Magnus really Magnus at that poinnt? Same goes for the rest of em

[Nineswords]

Over 9000.

[Allart01]

By that logic, isn't a chaos space marine a space marine with elevated power levels? And yet they routinely get crunched by their loyal counterparts. There is nothing in established canon that says a chaos space marine is everything a space marine is, just better.

I want to stress again that I don't think I have any real problem with daemon Fulgrim outclassing Bobby G, but to present it as so one sided is unusual for gw and I think that certainty is harmful to the fluff more than it is helpful.

 

The proportion is not Daemon Primarch : Primarch = Chaos Marine : Space Marine.

That would be before the daemonic ascension.

It is Daemon Primarch : Primarch = Daemon Prince : Space Marine

And yep, a Daemon Prince totally outclasses a Space Marine in a frontal, one on one combat.

I think it makes sense that Fulgrim trashed Bobby G, to be honest.

Not only was he (/she/it, a that point?) a Daemon Prince, but also one of the best Primarchs in hand to hand combat.

Edited July 7, 2017 by The_Bloody

[Guest pandion40]

I don't believe it's a straight Primarch powers plus deamon powers equals deamon Primarch deal, it's a transformation and so I don't believe they end up with all the powers and strength of both, though I'd still say the Deamon Primarchs are more powerful than their loyalist kin.

 

But I also always thought it was difficult for a deamon to project it's power into the mortal world so unless it's a deamon world or such the more powerful daemons may not be fighting with all their strength. Particularly if it's an extended campaign where loyalist forces have the upper hand and may have destroyed or desecrated many shrines or devises designed to make the material realm more hospitable to Deamons.

Edited July 7, 2017 by pandion40

[Mellow]

I guess it depends on whether a Daemon Primarch is actually the original Primarch soul inside or whether it's just a daemonic entity that has taken the body and memories.

 

This would leave it open for all Daemon Primarchs to have the Daemon banished and loyalty restored. But I personally wouldn't like that. I hope it's more that the Primarch soul is twisted and corrupt.

[bluntblade]

I've never heard anything to suggest that the Daemon Primarchs aren't themselves, corrupted beyond any hope of redemption.

[Prot]

Any questions for Guy re: Dark Imperium or Perturabo? For this weekend.

 

Not a question just a comment: He must write more of Guilliman, and more of this era of 40K. 

 

Personally I've read nearly everything Guilliman related and this is my favorite rendition. Seeing him change, evolve, question things he seemed to have set in stone. It's all a very different Guilliman and I really liked it.

 

The pacing of the story is great. I really like that there's action and he didn't get stuck in some artsy fartsy interpretation that leaves you kind of lost. This has great action on top of the underlying character development. 

 

Just really hoping to see him do more of this in the near future. :)

[A D-B]

I've never heard anything to suggest that the Daemon Primarchs aren't themselves, corrupted beyond any hope of redemption.

 

Daemonic ascension means, in a very literal sense, becoming part of your patron god. You are one of their daemons from then on, and incarnated from their essence, at their whim. It's the main reason (well, one of them) behind Abaddon's refusal to accept immortality and power through daemonic ascension.

Edited July 7, 2017 by A D-B

[DarkChaplain]

Which, in turn, means that an exorcism or winning-back-one's-body is out of the question. Fulgrim got his body back, he was possessed and managed to cheat the daemon.

Then he decided, hey, all this stuff isn't half bad, I want it for myself (as opposed to letting somebody else have it while piggy-backing his body).

 

Once you go Daemon Primarch, that's that. There's no way to back out of that deal anymore. They stay in control insofar as you can say they do, considering they're suddenly aware of so much more than themselves, though. It isn't like the daemonic part can just be driven off because it is a vital part of their very being at that point.

[helterskelter]

Who are undivided daemons part of then? Just to be picky? Lorgar/perturabo?

[Mellow]

its strange because we have examples of people in 40k that have been possessed and are now uncorruptable. However a daemon Primarch is a soul that's been convinced that becoming corrupt is the right thing to do. Theoretically it would mean that removing the taint is possible but even The Emperor didn't have that ability or power otherwise He may just have done it to save all the bother.

 

Plus it's not very grimdark if people can be "cured".

 

I'd much rather see examples where both loyalist and traitors have trmprorarily aligned objectives to work together. E.g. When the iron warriors fought with the loyalists against the Beasts forces.

 

I wonder if the Daemon Primarchs would ever be convinced to do something similar if the threat was grave enough. As I believe the traitors don't want Humanity destroyed, rather they want Humanity twisted to their allegiances.

[Nazguire]

Yeah see, I was never a fan of Fulgrim being possessed, especially by an evil sword but I could see the appeal of a Primarch being possessed and no one knowing of his plight. I definitely was not a fan of Fulgrim pushing the daemon out of his body through sheer will (at least, that was how it was portrayed) and then deciding, yeah nah I'm keen on Slaanesh anyway.

 

It felt like McNeill was just caving in to fan backlash about the possession but still was trapped in having Fulgrim as a bad guy.

[Marshal Loss]

I was always disappointed he got out of the painting. Leaving him in there for all eternity was so deliciously grimdark. I can see why people might disagree though.

[Mellow]

Yes, having him come out of a painting and force himself back in his boy because reasons was a bit lame.

 

"Haha, I have my body back foul slaanesh Daemon! ... You'll never twist me to your desires ever aga... wait, you can give me a tail with no legs! Sign me up!"

[DarkChaplain]

its strange because we have examples of people in 40k that have been possessed and are now uncorruptable. However a daemon Primarch is a soul that's been convinced that becoming corrupt is the right thing to do. Theoretically it would mean that removing the taint is possible but even The Emperor didn't have that ability or power otherwise He may just have done it to save all the bother.

 

The difference is, in my eyes, that those people "were" possessed as opposed to "becoming" possessed, for lack of a better term. As in, they shared their soul and body with a daemonic entity, not becoming a mostly daemonic entity themselves. The Primarchs did the latter, whereas the Exorcists and similar, who then built up the daemonic resistance, only got possessed by a minor entity for a limited timeframe under strict observation.

[Carach]

i prefer to think that the daemon that possessed fulgrim is still the owner of the body. That he has merely tricked folks into thinking he's the real Fulgrim back. 

 

the alternative is to follow the ridiculous plot that both ruins and cheapens the end of his novel regarding regret and tragedy. 

[Arkangilos]

Hmmmm I'm not sure I agree. I feel like the notion of some tradeoffs has been a subject of long and healthy debate.

 

I'm not saying I feel conclusively about it one way or the other, but I think I liked at least some room for ambiguity more than an utterly imbalanced bitchslap.

 

As far as I can recall, it was always something of a mutual kill. And didn't it happen on the planet?

It is a trade off... power and strength for your soul and freedom.

 

There would literally be no reason to ascend if you didn't become stronger. And like others said, normal humans and normal space marines that ascend to becoming daemon princes become far stronger, why would it not be the same for daemon Primarchs?

[DarkChaplain]

There's also the tradeoff on stability. You're subject to the whims of daemonic bs. Keeping yourself anchored in real space is tough business, and usually requires some ritual to open a portal first. If you get knocked out, you may be out of the race for centuries or millennia before you can return to the real galaxy. Not a great situation to be in.

 

Taking all those risks HAS to be worth it.

[Ascanius]

Being possessed is definitely different from becoming a daemon. You can have the daemon exorcised and survive the former experience, but there doesn't seem to be any way back from the latter.