Dark Imperium Spoilers/Plot Summary (Read Along)

[Loesh]

So someone who does something heroic is disqualified to you because they belong to a bad organization? Even if they went out of their way to save their brothers? Or they died so that people could evacuate to safety? Just because the organization of the Imperium allows bad stuff to happens, their heroic acts don't count?

If they actively support it's efforts? Yes, totally. Does that mean they are pure evil? No of course not, but in my eyes it's not enough to qualify them for hero status outside the idea of heroic as overcoming adversity. 

 

I feel like such a nerd for typing this, but Grommash taking down Mannoroth didn't make Grommash a hero, it simply meant he was as redeemed as Grommash could be.

[DogWelder]

 

 

 

 

I'd hesitate to label anything or anyone in the setting heroic, even by that definition. 

 

I mean saving entire star systems from being ritually slaughtered down to the last man, woman and child to advance the agenda of a literal demonic entity seems very heroic to me...

 

The people involved are also part of the most bloody regime imaginable who routinely massacre and enslave entire populations, and depending on who you are unlucky enough to be liberated by they might also slaughter the inhabitants wholesale just to make a point, with levels of regret that might vary between 'a lot but not enough to turn' and 'none whatsoever' or just ignore as someone else does it for them. Essentially they are heroic by virtue of their opponents being worse, even the Salamanders are monstrous amoral creations if i'm being generous.

 

Sure Frank Castle saves people, does that mean Frank Castle is a good person? Not even remotely, depending on the writer Frank Castle might even tell you so.

 

 

Well as I've said before:

 

One side has an insane man wearing the skin of dead orphan children, screaming incoherently about the Dark Gods consuming the stars,and attempting to saw off your head.

 

 

The other side...is not doing that.

 

Caius, in this very book we have an event called the Chronostrife, wherin the public immolation of individuals is called over Heretical Calenders.

 

Heretical Calenders.

 

The point where the Imperium was better then that was....actually never, because the Emperor's Death Cults exist, BUT IF THEY DIDN'T, it was probably lost around the time planets were getting annihilated for tax rounding errors. 

 

I mean generally on the whole Chaos is worse, but as I said, that's largely the only reason I can see the Imperium as possibly heroic? Like literally by virtue of being a lesser evil...sometimes.

 

 

 

Honestly the lesser evil is kind of my point. Whatever bad thing the Imperium does, Chaos does its absolute best to go ten times further in evilness. 

[Loesh]

 

 

 

 

 

I'd hesitate to label anything or anyone in the setting heroic, even by that definition. 

 

I mean saving entire star systems from being ritually slaughtered down to the last man, woman and child to advance the agenda of a literal demonic entity seems very heroic to me...

 

The people involved are also part of the most bloody regime imaginable who routinely massacre and enslave entire populations, and depending on who you are unlucky enough to be liberated by they might also slaughter the inhabitants wholesale just to make a point, with levels of regret that might vary between 'a lot but not enough to turn' and 'none whatsoever' or just ignore as someone else does it for them. Essentially they are heroic by virtue of their opponents being worse, even the Salamanders are monstrous amoral creations if i'm being generous.

 

Sure Frank Castle saves people, does that mean Frank Castle is a good person? Not even remotely, depending on the writer Frank Castle might even tell you so.

 

 

Well as I've said before:

 

One side has an insane man wearing the skin of dead orphan children, screaming incoherently about the Dark Gods consuming the stars,and attempting to saw off your head.

 

 

The other side...is not doing that.

 

Caius, in this very book we have an event called the Chronostrife, wherin the public immolation of individuals is called over Heretical Calenders.

 

Heretical Calenders.

 

The point where the Imperium was better then that was....actually never, because the Emperor's Death Cults exist, BUT IF THEY DIDN'T, it was probably lost around the time planets were getting annihilated for tax rounding errors. 

 

I mean generally on the whole Chaos is worse, but as I said, that's largely the only reason I can see the Imperium as possibly heroic? Like literally by virtue of being a lesser evil...sometimes.

 

 

 

Honestly the lesser evil is kind of my point. Whatever bad thing the Imperium does, Chaos does its absolute best to go ten times further in evilness. 

 

Yeah? I mean my point wasn't that Chaos is more benevolent then the Imperium, it's plainly not, I was saying that they weren't really what i'd consider heroic. The fact that they don't eat children isn't really enough for me to say they are so.

 

In fact it's easier for me to empathize with Chaos/Renegade Warbands precisely because they aren't associated with each other by default, which is why besides me being a Third Legion fan I also absolutely adore Blackshields, they can be literally anything you want, not attached to either side.

[b1soul]

Heroism can be defined in different things.

 

Moral heroism certainly isn't common in 40k

[Vesper]

 

Well as I've said before:

 

One side has an insane man wearing the skin of dead orphan children, screaming incoherently about the Dark Gods consuming the stars,and attempting to saw off your head.

 

 

The other side...is not doing that.

 

 

I mean with Chaos the moral ambiguity thing has never made any sense when we can clearly see that chaos is several times worse than the Imperials. So while I understand why there would be motives for joining chaos (lust for power, lust for reveeeeeengeee etc.), I don't think they can make any kind of moral argument that doesn't just fall apart immediately. 

 

I can see the "shades of grey" thing happening with the Tau but not any other faction tbh.

 

 

It's far more nuanced than that. If Chaos was only referenced as the maniacs who kill everyone on sight, then I might agree. But it isn't.

 

Billions mortals live in the Eye and other Chaos held places. Entire societies, cultures, species exist in the paradigm of Chaos. Some happen to be extreme to the max, because Chaos has a tendancy for it, but they all are viable civilisations in their own right. See the Chaos forces in the Sabbat cluster for instance.

 

Thing is, most of the time our perception of Chaos is skewed by the point of view we're stuck in. It's easy to jump to absurd conclusions on what Chaos as a whole is when you view its forces at war (a quite perticular situation) through the eyes of an Imperial (who got indoctrinated all his life).

 

In the end, Chaos hasn't invented murder, mass slaughter, genocide or Exterminatus. Mankind did, and the Warp reproduced. Chaos forces slaughter childrens ? Well, the Legiones Astartes took great pride in doing so during the Great Crusade. They even called it "duty". It's even worst now that the Astartes are forced to go through a process of indoctrination that leave them as far from Mankind as possible so they can slaughter innocent and guilty as easily, without asking questions, because questions lead to heresy.

 

Mankind bred Chaos in its actual form. It's a cycle. The horrors of Mankind, comming back to dominate him. Falling to Chaos is like indulging to your feelings, it's a natural and quite humane process. Proof is, even the most mutated Chaos Space Marine is more human than a 40k Space Marine indoctinated and unable to feel anything human.

 

To respond to that, the Imperium incarnates the horrors of your everyday life. Living the life of a slave, from the lowest citizen to the greatest Space Marine. You're lifestock thrown by some faraway hierarchs in the fires of industry or war to spend all your forces, all your life protecting them, living in fear of their agents who hunt down any sign of rebellion. They speak of the Emperor. An Emperor you've never seen, used as a figurehead to hide the monstruosity of the administration that'll crush your bones without remorse, because you don't matter. What matters is that you produce what they ask you to produce. And don't forget to fill your papers, or else you and all your family will end up on the pyres.

 

The cycle is part of the grimdark feel of the setting. Everything Mankind do or feel shapes what Chaos is. If Chaos appears brutal, bloodthirsty and pityless, thank the Imperium of Man. And it escalades.

 

But that also mean Chaos has positive aspects, since Mankind does. For instance, take this depiction of Khorne in Epic :

 

"Khorne is the god of anger and destruction, the warrior god of Chaos whose bellows of rage echo throughout time and space. He sits upon a great throne of brass atop a mountainous pile of bleached skulls. Whenever a champion of Khorne is slain in battle his skull is added to the pile, which slowly grows higher and higher. Khorne is a fighting god and his daemons and mortal Champions are amongst the most potent warriors of all. Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood. Khorne's great delight is battle and the spilling of blood"

 

Is it the only Khorne out there ? Of course not, Chaos is far more diverse and kaleidoscopic than that. Most Khorne Berzerkers certainly don't recognize their patron that way, but many warriors also do.

 

Chaos is nothing more than a mirror. So no, it isn't worst than the Imperium. They are dancing partners, fated to shape each other until the death of the Imperium.

 

If you really want to play the good guys, from our moral standpoint, play the ratskins from Necromunda, who just want to live in peace and isolation.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Vesper

[Arkangilos]

For what it's worth, I think there can be some heroic chaos marines, too. As I've said before, heroism is subjective, and what I classify as heroic isn't based around the institutional moral ideologies. I just think that the Imperium produces more instances of it than chaos does. 

[Vesper]

What could be an interesting subject for another thread is can there be heroism when you're indoctrinated to the point of being unable to feel fear ?

 

Fortunately, there is no need for another thread since the answer would evidently be no.

[godking]

What could be an interesting subject for another thread is can there be heroism when you're indoctrinated to the point of being unable to feel fear ?

 

Fortunately, there is no need for another thread since the answer would evidently be no.

Indeed the answer is no.

 

If you are physically unable to feel fear and on top are  indoctrinated against fear  you cannot overcome fear and be heroic.

 

Personally i would like to see an in universe argument where some astartes is complaining about ''cowardly'' mortals and verbally gets his ass handed to him.

[DarkChaplain]

That argument could be made, sure. But Space Marines, for all their conditioning, still fear regardless. They worry, they have their misgivings. They do not fear death, but that doesn't mean they don't care about dying. They don't fear pain, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't try to avoid it if possible. They still fear bringing shame upon themselves and their Chapters, they fear failure.

 

The whole no-fear angle has been put to the test countless times in the fiction, to the point where sometimes the Astartes in question even muse about it or even laugh it off. While they might be physically and in part mentally limited from feeling its full effects, and cannot panic the same way a guardsman might, they are still aware of it and can suffer from crippling doubt. The big difference as I see it is how they process that fear and doubt and how little it paralyzes them when it counts.

 

Did the Psykers struck by the Edict of Nikaea not fear defying the Emperor's judgement? Weren't they plagued by doubts in many instances, yet feared repercussions to their Chapters? Did they not fear that the ban on their powers would lose them battles against the traitors? Did they not fear that the Emperor was dead? Did they not fear utter annihilation after the Dropsite Massacre?

 

"And they shall know no fear" has always seemed to be read too literally to me.

[SpecialIssue]

That argument could be made, sure. But Space Marines, for all their conditioning, still fear regardless. They worry, they have their misgivings. They do not fear death, but that doesn't mean they don't care about dying. They don't fear pain, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't try to avoid it if possible. They still fear bringing shame upon themselves and their Chapters, they fear failure.

 

The whole no-fear angle has been put to the test countless times in the fiction, to the point where sometimes the Astartes in question even muse about it or even laugh it off. While they might be physically and in part mentally limited from feeling its full effects, and cannot panic the same way a guardsman might, they are still aware of it and can suffer from crippling doubt. The big difference as I see it is how they process that fear and doubt and how little it paralyzes them when it counts.

 

Did the Psykers struck by the Edict of Nikaea not fear defying the Emperor's judgement? Weren't they plagued by doubts in many instances, yet feared repercussions to their Chapters? Did they not fear that the ban on their powers would lose them battles against the traitors? Did they not fear that the Emperor was dead? Did they not fear utter annihilation after the Dropsite Massacre?

 

"And they shall know no fear" has always seemed to be read too literally to me.

 

I would say all those examples are an intellectual recognition and aversion to failure of one kind or another, rather than the natural, reactionary and spontaneous emotion of 'fear'. Doubt is not an emotion by itself and is initiated only on the conscious/intellectual effort of its bearer.

[DarkChaplain]

That's what I was getting at with the whole "how they process it" part. They do not feel an instinctual fear, they lack that response to danger, but they are very much capable of fearing things on a superhuman level. They do not express it by wetting their pants, they won't run away screaming for daddy, but they are not so neutered that they cannot be heroic because of that or can't feel shocked by certain things, or be unnerved to a degree. They can still fear for the safety of their respective Primarch as well, as we've seen countless times. But natural, physical fear on the battlefield? They don't have that.

[Loesh]

For what it's worth, I think there can be some heroic chaos marines, too. As I've said before, heroism is subjective, and what I classify as heroic isn't based around the institutional moral ideologies. I just think that the Imperium produces more instances of it than chaos does. 

 

Oh I totally understand that, it was also what B1soul was getting at, I simply did not process it as such and then Caius responded and most of my stuff was directed over at that, apologies if it seemed otherwise.

[Vesper]

That's what I was getting at with the whole "how they process it" part. They do not feel an instinctual fear, they lack that response to danger, but they are very much capable of fearing things on a superhuman level. They do not express it by wetting their pants, they won't run away screaming for daddy, but they are not so neutered that they cannot be heroic because of that or can't feel shocked by certain things, or be unnerved to a degree. They can still fear for the safety of their respective Primarch as well, as we've seen countless times. But natural, physical fear on the battlefield? They don't have that.

Don't confuse 30k marines and 40k "the Heresy must never happen again, boost the indoctrination process to eleven" marines, for those are two different beasts.

[Malakye]

There were rumors of a retcon of the duel between the Emperor and Horus awhile back, so I found this little line towards the end of Guilliman commenting on his sword interesting.

"This sword had been his father’s own, the blade that had slain Horus and ended the strife of the Heresy, or so all had thought at the time"

 

That "or so all had thought" has stood out to me since I read the book, makes me curious if it will be delved into further in the rest of the series.

 

[cheywood]

There were rumors of a retcon of the duel between the Emperor and Horus awhile back, so I found this little line towards the end of Guilliman commenting on his sword interesting.

 

"This sword had been his father’s own, the blade that had slain Horus and ended the strife of the Heresy, or so all had thought at the time"

 

That "or so all had thought" has stood out to me since I read the book, makes me curious if it will be delved into further in the rest of the series.

 

 

I noticed this myself, but I'm pretty sure Guilliman's talking about how the Heresy never ended, not a secret revelation relating to the fight. I could certainly be mistaken though.

[Malakye]

 

There were rumors of a retcon of the duel between the Emperor and Horus awhile back, so I found this little line towards the end of Guilliman commenting on his sword interesting.

 

"This sword had been his father’s own, the blade that had slain Horus and ended the strife of the Heresy, or so all had thought at the time"

 

That "or so all had thought" has stood out to me since I read the book, makes me curious if it will be delved into further in the rest of the series.

 

I noticed this myself, but I'm pretty sure Guilliman's talking about how the Heresy never ended, not a secret revelation relating to the fight. I could certainly be mistaken though.

 

 

Yeah you bet, that's certainly more then likely the intent of the line.

 

​With the return of one loyalist Primarch I can't see them skipping out on the other ones, how that takes form will be interesting. 

[HeritorA]

 

 

There were rumors of a retcon of the duel between the Emperor and Horus awhile back, so I found this little line towards the end of Guilliman commenting on his sword interesting.

 

"This sword had been his father’s own, the blade that had slain Horus and ended the strife of the Heresy, or so all had thought at the time"

 

That "or so all had thought" has stood out to me since I read the book, makes me curious if it will be delved into further in the rest of the series.

 

I noticed this myself, but I'm pretty sure Guilliman's talking about how the Heresy never ended, not a secret revelation relating to the fight. I could certainly be mistaken though.

 

 

Yeah you bet, that's certainly more then likely the intent of the line.

 

​With the return of one loyalist Primarch I can't see them skipping out on the other ones, how that takes form will be interesting. 

 

 

Well we all know that in the next 2 years a lot of Primarchs would be baсk. A lot of people with 'spoilers' were right about GS and Dark Imperium, so I do believe they are right about Lion, Khan etc.

[Arkangilos]

 

There were rumors of a retcon of the duel between the Emperor and Horus awhile back, so I found this little line towards the end of Guilliman commenting on his sword interesting.

 

"This sword had been his father’s own, the blade that had slain Horus and ended the strife of the Heresy, or so all had thought at the time"

 

That "or so all had thought" has stood out to me since I read the book, makes me curious if it will be delved into further in the rest of the series.

 

 

I noticed this myself, but I'm pretty sure Guilliman's talking about how the Heresy never ended, not a secret revelation relating to the fight. I could certainly be mistaken though.

The way the sentence is structured means it is too the "Ended the Strife of the Heresy".

 

When writing, add on phrases like that are supposed to be tacked to whatever statement it is regarding. So if it was about the sword that killed Horus, it would have been at that point that it was said, "or so they had all thought."

 

Since it is after the ending of the strife part, it applies specifically to that.

 

This is further backed up by the fact that almost no one knew about the long war except for very key individuals, most of which was after the primarchs had left. Remember, the black crusades happened some time after and they thought they had peace after the first few were defeated, which was why the Imperium was so unprepared for the Beast.

[bluntblade]

Chaos was more or less forgotten until the First Black Crusade.

[Mellow]

There were rumors of a retcon of the duel between the Emperor and Horus awhile back, so I found this little line towards the end of Guilliman commenting on his sword interesting.

 

"This sword had been his father’s own, the blade that had slain Horus and ended the strife of the Heresy, or so all had thought at the time"

 

That "or so all had thought" has stood out to me since I read the book, makes me curious if it will be delved into further in the rest of the series.

 

 

Well from lore the sword didn't kill Horus it was a mind bullet. Plus the heresy didn't really end did it. War continued with traitors for the next 10k years.

 

I think you're reading too much into it.

[bluntblade]

I think a lot of people, perhaps everyone except Abaddon, believed Chaos would never have another figurehead like Horus, so would never be as great a threat again.

[HeritorA]

Heroism can be defined in different things.

 

Moral heroism certainly isn't common in 40k

 

On first you are right. As for the 'moral heroism isn't common in 40K' you are wrong.

All the Sisters of Battle, all the munistorium battle priests, penitents etc. will disagree with you.

 

 

I think a lot of people, perhaps everyone except Abaddon, believed Chaos would never have another figurehead like Horus, so would never be as great a threat again.

Part of the reason he eventually became a Warmaster

[Arkangilos]

Unless you consider them immoral, lol.

 

No one can be "wrong" when it comes to moral heroism from our point of view. That's why we shouldn't discuss it here.

 

And it's not so much people can't be wrong or right, it's that we are arguing moral values, and all of us have different principles.

[HeritorA]

Unless you consider them immoral, lol.

 

No one can be "wrong" when it comes to moral heroism from our point of view. That's why we shouldn't discuss it here.

 

And it's not so much people can't be wrong or right, it's that we are arguing moral values, and all of us have different principles.

 

What Arkangilos said.

No point breaking heroism and moral values - if we all see them under the different light. We went into the morals instead of a new Dark Imperium setting

[Triszin]

out of sheer curiosity is there any reference to the 4th expansion sphere of the tau in the dark impierum novel?