Most balance edition no way

[SnakeChisler]

So went down the store to do pre-order orged a game 1000 points against Necrons the store guy was super good about taking us through the new rules and while I won the mission with 80% casualties I didn't kill a single necron squad.

 

Total after five turns was 6 casualties on the cron side its actually worse than the Deciurion in 7th coz you cant run them down in combat ,with a cryptek they get 4+ re-animation every turn with a -1 ap gun and a 5+ invun

 

The game was embarrassing even the store guy was apologetic I thought this was supposed to be a re-balancing of 40k instead i'm disillusioned already

 

[Olis]

I thought this was supposed to be a re-balancing of 40k instead i'm disillusioned already

 

So, you're basing this off of one game? You can't really make a decent judgement off of that - you might have had an unusual game (or not, but who knows?). There's no way to tell unless you play more than one game. 

[GreyCrow]

What were the lists? What went wrong?

 

Did you whiff your rolls? Did you overexpose your units? Did you bring enough fire support or were you spamming Marines?

[Crazy Jay]

But you still won. A lot of my games in 6th and 7th against Necrons looked a lot like that. It would look like I was just beat down but when it came to the mission, I usually came out on top. Necrons are resilient, nothing new there. I'd really like to know the lists and how you approached it.

[Pvnisher]

I mean I've thrashed orks to no end and still lost the game.

[Prot]

Snake, I bet you learned something you would change in the next game. I understand you're probably a little upset after that game, but I think gong forward I would probably wipe our a squad at a time to prevent game lasting RP rolls.

 

I have seen the new necrons in action and while I do believe they are very, very good I think with experience you could replay that game and it would be quite different for you.

[Master Avoghai]

I actually think that winning the game without killing a necron squad is the perfect proof that it is balanced...

 

I mean, that it isn't enough to make casualty or resist casualties, you have to make good choices to make the casualties actually count. 

 

I'm nearly sure that if the necron players would have taken the right decisions to win the game (contest obejectives be more offensive...) he would have lost more bodies.

 

40k is not a game based on who kills the most.

[Knight Master Eladric]

Lots of valid points here, but I'll play devils advocate and say that isn't one of the missions still just kill points?

[SnakeChisler]

OK I've seriously calmed down now

 

Mission was hold 4 objectives you got a point per turn we played 4' x 4'

 

A load of valid points made towards the steam coming out of my ears thanks, there's still some real issues with Necrons though but on a 6' x 4' Board the wall of metal is easier to avoid unfortunately the Quantam shielding rule as currently written just looks flat broken. The rule is if he roles under your Damage role he takes no damage which seems just barmy ex- Knight with S14 auto D6 damage reaper chain sword will in all likelihood do nothing as long as the Cron player keeps rolling under a 6.

 

There's some test games coming up on Warhammer TV so I'm going to be watching closely to see how we and the store guy have interpreted all of this and compare in comparison.

 

On another note we ran a test game Sunday on the back of what happened the day before

Things I learn't from Saturday & took into Sunday

Bolters are now officially rubbish and the worst weapon in the imperial arsenal (range 24" rapid no minus to AP with cover a 4+ dude is now getting a 3+ save)

Re-Rolls (Take Characters that give you Re-Rolls always) As far as we could tell all weapons with the Heavy marker (including those on vehicles) are -1 to hit if you move

 

So onto Sundays game so a 2 v 1 DA versus Crons & Tau 

My list now was 2 scout squads 1 tac squad in las-back 2 speeder squads (HB & Typhoon * 2) 2 Vindicators Deathwing Knights Dreadnoughts with Las HQ's where Tech Marine on Bike Librarian in Terminator Armour & Sammael on Corvex 

 

Again pointers to how 8th is going to go

Tau Fire Warriors have the same issue as the bolters do no minus on AP makes them not much use even with re-rolls from the comander & a fireblade 2 wound Terminators walked straight through the hail of fire as they should but man are they slow.

 

Vindicators are beasts while not doing a number on squads  aside from stuff like terminators the D3 followed by D6 damage wrecks face on MC's, a combination of Las & Vindicator fire ripped a rip tide to pieces 1st turn.

Sad to say I used the Tech Marine to constantly repair one of them.

 

Snipers did nothing - I'm going to stick with these for a while (need to make up some missile launchers tho) in terms of Tactical squads I think I'm going to have to field at least 2 * 10 man squads min upgrades as basically meat shields to block Deep striking units, setting up 9" away is auto and there's nothing you can do about it pushing out a unit on foot to block is going to be a thing.

 

Tau Auto look out onto drones but all drones while deployed with their unit are independent so can be targeted, no more hiding behind a commander with a Drone controller and Marker lights have lost quite a bit of sting but do allow heavy units to move & shoot without penalty. Jump shoot Jump has gone and a riptide with a load of tasty wargear is round the 300 mark.

 

DarkShroud is still a thing the -1 even works on the marker lights and taking Necrons from 3+ to hit to 4+ was a life saver

 

Librarian was ok did some mortal wounds on a Necron vehicle reduced a units BS for a round which felt odd before the Knights punched it, it also felt strange standing out in the open

 

Sammael was really good plasma cannons are pretty decent range 36" D3 but mostly for the fact he was constantly buffing the speeders

 

TYpoon is really expensive but D6 damage on vehicles / monsters is insane when it goes off (except on Necron vehicles) and where key to the Tide falling T1

 

An easy victory for DA but the Tau list was a very 7th list and couldn't dish out the sort of firepower needed to pump enough wounds into the vehicles in 7th it would have wrecked all the Tanks/Dreads in 1 round of shooting before mopping up the speeders. Dark Shroud made them hit on 5's and he had to focus on the Vindicators which where wrecking his MC's. Interceptor is 12" now so he didn't bother buying it.

 

Command points are awesome

used for the following

Re-roll D3 for Tech marine repair

Used to avoid Perils of the warp

Used to re-roll damage on a Las when I rolled a 1

Used to re-roll hits from the vidicator when I rolled a 1

[Ronin_eX]

Not sure I really agree with you on bolters, or small arms in general, there are a lot of factors at play here.

 

First and foremost, outside of a few cases, anything that was AP - to AP 5 is now AP -0.  This is basically a universal truth, and it is a good change.  If every small arm in the game modified armour, then you'd be on here complaining about a power armour nerf rather than a bolter nerf.  I played during 2nd Edition, when everything and its dog had an ASM.  It was terrible for everyone, and especially terrible for marines who pay a premium for that 3+ save.  Small arms being largely AP -0 is a great thing and fixes a big issue with save mods in 2nd Edition.

 

So with that out of the way, why are small arms still okay?

 

First and foremost, we've just gotten out of five straight editions where the only thing a bolter's AP5 did was ignore 5+ saves.  Now, these units tended to stick to cover like glue before, so basically all that means is that IG and Orks are now getting there t-shirt saves against small arms when in the open.  Considering they both pay for their armour, finally getting to make natural saves for the first time in 30 years isn't a bad thing.  Consider the lost of AP on small arms a boost to a range of armour saves, especially very high end and very low end saves.  Basically, the new system means normal weapons will neither ignore nor modify your save, while even low levels of save mod (AP4, now AP -1) actually have some kind of effect even on high end saves.

 

This alone will take a ton of getting used to.  In general, things will get their armour save now, and some units (like terminators) that pay a premium for being tough, actually get to be tough.  Even marines are now getting natural saves against plasma weapons (meanwhile, AP-1 stuff that we used to laugh off is now a bit more threatening than it was).

 

It is a big shift that people aren't going to internalize right away, but it is good to be cognizant of it.

 

But what have small arms gained?  For about five editions now, models with small arms have been considered fodder and pointless chaff.  But what has changed?

 

Back in 3rd, the game changed greatly when they took away something folks took for granted in 2nd Edition.  Splitting fire.  Used to be that your small arms would be fired on infantry and your special and heavy weapons would split off to handle their most viable targets.

 

In 3rd, this all ended and the long, dark times began for small arms.  Did you pop a meltagun in that tac squad?  Well obviously that thing should be hunting heavy infantry, monstrous creatures and vehicles.  By equipping that, you set the combined efficacy of the squad's small arms (whose main point is being cheap and plentiful) against the efficacy of a special weapon you knowingly paid points for.  All of a sudden, whatever damage those bolters did is negated because that unit will always fire on its preferred target instead of what the bolters are good at (light infantry).

 

With 8th, we go back to the way it was in 2nd Edition, and it completely turns target selection on its head.  Squads need no longer waste the bulk of its fire on poor targets.  Target selection is more holistic and requires looking at all units in range.

 

Say you're holding the line, an Ork horde is about to pounce alongside a Deffdred.  You have three combat squads armed with missile launchers.  Used to be you had to prioritize one target or the other.  Now, all those bolter marines will fire in to the horde and those three missile launchers will fire on the Dred.  Bolters aren't objectively powerful, they never were and were never meant to be.  But they are cheap, and they are plentiful.

 

Now instead of thinking how each unit will spend its firepower, you are looking at how to budget the whole line's firepower in the most efficient manner rather than just worrying about the specials and heavies and viewing and boltgun fire as incidental if it has any effect on the selected target.

 

So the four bolter marines alongside the special/heavy aren't anything to write home about.  But if there are 3-4 squads nearby, then the 9-12 bolters in the area are more than just a pittance, especially if they can all focus in to a single target.

 

Small arms fire is an actual resource now, rather than an incidental thing that comes with a unit.  You may still encounter a situation where it has no good target.  But the same thing can happen when your plasma gun/lascannon/meltagun only had a Hormagaunt mob to fire in to.

 

Secondly, specific to S4.  It now wounds S6 and S7 on a 5+ instead of a 6+.  In general S4 and T4 saw some major improvements from the structure of the game itself that may not be readily apparent when you're thinking in older terms.  It's not huge (splitting fire is a much bigger development) but it is a minor plus with no real additional downside (because S4 still wounds T3, T2 and T1 on the same rolls it used to for what it's worth).

 

So don't discount basic small arms just because they don't have AP.  With the advent of 8th, they never need to be relegated to firing on a vehicle or monstrous creature ever again (and even though they can wound those now, like most small arms, you shouldn't bother if you don't need to).

 

As for Quantum Shielding, well, it's said best in Dune.  The slow blade penetrates the shield.  Sure, something dealing an automatic 6 wounds will have a hard time with a Ghost Ark or a Doomsday Ark.  But have a look at that low toughness and that low save.  The thing is fodder for a great many units.  Plasma without overcharging is actually quite effective against it.  Plasma wounds on a 3+, ignores their base armour save, and basically ignores Quantum Shielding since it only does 1 damage.  Hell, even overcharged it only grants the equivalent of a 6++.

 

Get some plasma with a rites bubble nearby and you'll be able to melt the thing in short order.

 

But even against a d6 damage attack, the average damage roll is 3.5.  So the Arks basically get the equivalent of a 4++ or 5++ when hit with anti-tank weaponry (most of which ignores that 4+ save easily).  And mid-range damage stuff will give it the equivalent of a 5++ at best.  A unit of terminators can maul them pretty badly.  Basically, you just want to avoid hitting them with weapons that auto-deal 6 wounds or melta (which average higher).

 

Quantum shielding isn't broken because it has obvious counters.  Just takes a bit of forethought when planning your targets.  In general, the low T and save on the Arks mean that lighter attacks like plasma (things with high S and low damage) will make quick work of them.  Just an interesting wrinkle that usually doesn't make it any more resilient than a unit sporting a 4++ or a 5++.  The only time it is grabbing its best save is when you hit it with the exact kind of weapon quantum shielding is meant to counter.

[Solrac]

Quantum shielding only mentions damage from unsaved wounds not Mortal Wounds. Mortal Wounds would bypass quantum shielding and if you really want to bring something down that's where you need to focus your Libby's etc.

 

Glad to see you calmed down Snake but give it a bit. Proper codex's aren't even out yet and 8th will be a living ruleset so if somethings way too OP they will adjust it.

 

@Ronin_eX one of the best posts I've read to date about comparisons, well done!

[Elios Harg]

It seems that the way to down quantum shielded units is by massed low damage fire, quantum shields can't stop boltguns, assault cannons, un-charged plasma cannons, heavy bolters, frag missiles, etc. Meanwhile, the vehicles with quantum shielding are all T6, which means anything with more punch than a lasgun will wound on a 5+ or better.  If you are attacking these vehicles with high damage weapons, you are playing into the necrons' strengths. Instead, the high damage output weapons, like Lascannons, Melta, Knight and Titan weapons, should all be focusing on killing big stuff like Monoliths, Tesseract Vaults, the flyers (which are not quantum shielded), C'Tan, and multi-wound units like Wraiths and Destroyers.

 

A seemingly good unit for killing these vehicles would be terminators. If a unit of 5 terminators with storm bolters and a cyclone missile launcher can get into charge range, then they will take off on average 3.55 wounds from shooting (using frags rather than krak) and then follow up with about 4.22 wounds from the charge. That's 7-8 wounds on average in a single turn from a single unit, which may have been able to pull this off on a turn 1 teleporter strike with some luck on the charge. That would be nearly enough to destroy a command or annihilation barge outright and peel nearly half the wounds off either variety of ark. An assault cannon instead of a cyclone would do even better against these vehicles. Also, that is assuming that the quantum shields will block 1/3 of the power fist wounds. That is only likely to happen if the fists are rolling 3 damage all the time, which would realistically up the total damage that got through. On a similar token, a tactical squad with a power sword, combi-plasma, plasma gun, and a missile launcher could deal similar damage from charge range.

 

Other good units versus Quantum Shielding are Dark Talons and Nephilim (avenger megabolter version), Black Knights (Unit of 5 can do 4.44 wounds on average from shooting alone, plus charge for about 1.6 more), and Ravenwing Bikers (a unit of 10 can shred them for 4 wounds with bolter fire plus 2.67 more from plasma/combi-plasma). This is all just the units themselves without any re-roll or extra attack buffs. Unfortunately, while heavy damage weapons get fairly easy choices (heavy vehicles, flyers, big wound models), the torrent of fire stuff has to make tough decisions between shooting at necrons or shooting at their quantum shielded vehicles. However, Dark Angels have plenty of tools to deal with quantum shielding.