The Secret War

[Gentlemanloser]

An excerpt from the current (Index) fluff on the Secret War;

 

 

 

Only the Grey Knights are truly immune to the taint of Chaos, and so any other Imperial force that aids them in the destruction of warp entities is in grave danger of being corrupted.  Even the smallest chance this has occurred cannot be tolerated; entire armies of Guardsmen are put to the sword or subjected to telepathic scouring that renders them little more than mindless servitors.  Space Marines are to valuable for such brutal methods, and so are instead mind-wiped or sworn to secrecy under threat of excommunication.  Thus the Grey Knights remain nothing but a myth, a legend told in whispers amongst the vary rarest of scholars

 

Putting side for the moment this is, difficult, to believe under normal circumstances - there are to many stories of Chapters fighting off Chaos, reforging Daemon Weapons into Chapter Relics, hunting down Chaos Artefacts, or generally being assisted by / fighting alongside the Grey Knights - we are no longer in 'normal' circumstances.

 

Thanks to Brightstar, we've had a little glimpse (through Dark Imperium) as to what the Grey Knights have actually done or been doing to combat the largest Chaos breach into the Materium ever;

 

 

As someone who's actually read (most of) Dark Imperium, I can confirm that the Grey Knights are mentioned in passing as being stationed throughout the fleet of Guilliman's Indomitus Crusade so that they can answer any daemonic manifestations as the fleet engages in battle around a major warp rift. Admittedly even in that role they're playing second-fiddle to the Sisters of Silence (who do the same job and more) but at the very least they're acknowledged as part of the Indomitus Crusade and being used by Guilliman in a way that shows he sees them as a valuable asset.

 

How does this fit in with the current fluff of the Secret War?

 

I doubt;

 

1: The Indomitus Crusade doesn't face any threats from 'Warp Entities'.

2: Guilliman Mind Wipes old Marines / Primaris Marines that do come into contact with 'Warp Entities'.

3: The Grey Knights are a 'secret' presence aboard the Crusade.

 

It seems utterly implausible for the Secret War to remain a secret.  It seems just as implausible for the Grey Knights to now remain nothing but a Myth.

 

The current Index given fluff for the Grey Knights and the Secret War seem utterly preposterous.

 

And playing second fiddle to the Sisters of Silence in the one role they were created for.  /sigh

 

Edit: Also if the GK are playing second fiddle to the SoS then it seems that "Only the Grey Knights are truly immune to the taint of Chaos" is not correct either...

Edited June 4, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Grotsmasha]

Head-cannon reasoning incoming...

 

So I guess the question is, what is the myth about the Grey Knights? And for me, the answer is simple. The myth is the existence of an uncorruptable SM Chapter, that are all psychic, specifically created to fight Chaos. It's not that there's a Chapter 666, or Grey Knights to hide, it's the knowledge of the specifics of their mandate and abilities that they need to purge from the populace.

I don't see marines being mind-scrubbed for just seeing a Grey Knight, but if said marines witnesses them up close in a fight? Sure, mind scrub.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[The Yak]

What's the specifics for a mind wipe on a marine. Do they just forget about the daemons, is it a certain time period deleted (battle, campaign) or is it every memory and their personality. If its the last I take it they retain their training and combat abilities?

 

Just wondering for a backstory for a Vanguard Veteran Sergeant.

[Scribe]

SoS would be immune as they are Null's though right? Like they deaden the Warp, so cannot be influenced by it?

[Guest Triszin]

that all sounds absurd. I'll pretend this book doesn't exist

[jeffersonian000]

From a literary point of view, in order for Grey Knights to beca myth, stories have to be told about them. In the Emperor's Gift, a dying Space Wolf tells a Grey Knight, "I have never seen the likes of your armor and markings, but I know who you are." After that incident, thousands of Guardsmen were able to spread the story of Grey Knights across the galaxy due to the Space Wolves chosing to sacrifice billions to save millions.

 

Every Chapter Master know of the Grey Knights.

 

The High Lords know of the Grey Knights.

 

Ordo Malleus Inquisitors know of the Grey Knights.

 

So, functionally, the Grey Knights are the worst kept secret in the Imperium, especially with Voldus making such a public appearance along with a huge chunk of Chapter 666 playing back up to Gilliman's new crusade.

 

SJ

[Doghouse]

 

Space Marines are to valuable for such brutal methods, and so are instead mind-wiped or sworn to secrecy under threat of excommunication.  Thus the Grey Knights remain nothing but a myth, a legend told in 

 

This is really old lore, is this in the new stuff?

 

Seems a bit odd in this day and age especially if the war on chaos is so intense for the Astartes, granted the average citizen could be utterly oblivious to all this going on but in terms of front line Astartes? Mind scrubbing in the current meta would be a bit odd. You're talking pretty much all Chapters at the moment.

 

If it is it sounds more like a cut and paste job from an earlier edition till the new codex arrives for them.

[Brother Ramael]

Allright-o, so we have for the 7ed edition a whole chapter ( the DA) with "Hatred:we-don't-know-who-exactly"....

This is a case of someone coming up with some "awesome" lore for an army that simply cannot relate with the main setting.

 

Edit: to elaborate:

 

-Space marines know very well about Chaos ( some chapter have preferred enemy even as I said)

-The ecclesiachy knows well about Chaos; have you heard of last week sermon about how awful it is?

-The reason for the above sermons is because the populations has at least some knowledge of Chaos ( chaos cultists don't grow on trees)

-IG knows about Chaos ( either that or, to name one, the Caadians would get mindwiped/wiped out tout court evey 8th hours, then we can go on about Tallarns and so on)

-SoB/SoS know about Chaos ofc

-Rogue Traders know about Chaos, as any Astropath ( and there's plenty of those)

-The Imperial Navy knows about Chaos again very obviously

and I can go on for ages.

 

So yeah, awesome lore, just it doesn't have much to do with the rest of the setting.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Brother Ramael

[Gentlemanloser]

Dog, that's fresh from the opening GK page in the imperial 1 index.

 

Pure 8th edition fluff.

 

As Brother Ramael points out above it was highly suspect back in old 40k.

 

Now, just flat out unbelievable.

 

And its still being peddled...

Edited June 5, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[jeffersonian000]

40k lore is filled with lies and propaganda, with only a hint of Truth.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

You don't lie to customers.

 

In world, sure. Our world, nope.

[Shinespider]

It's clearly not true, for reasons that have been elaborated on here. It contradicts far too much established canon to be taken seriously. Especially in 8th, when the Eye of Terror is literally everywhere and daemons are invading half the Imperium, it's simply impossible. 

 

It seems like whoever was formatting the Index just dropped in a cool-sounding bit of fluff from a previous book without thinking about how it plays into the wider story. Disappointing, but not the end of the world.

[Lay]

What's the specifics for a mind wipe on a marine. Do they just forget about the daemons, is it a certain time period deleted (battle, campaign) or is it every memory and their personality. If its the last I take it they retain their training and combat abilities?

 

Just wondering for a backstory for a Vanguard Veteran Sergeant.

 

Forgeworld touched upon this with the Red Hunters chapter. This is from the 6th editon rules update .pdf :

 

The Red Hunters Chapter is tied to the Inquisition by ancient bonds of honour and duty. Fighting in Inquisitorial strike forces and providing honour guards for the most senior of Inquisitor-lords, the Red Hunters have confronted numerous horrors no mortals can face and be allowed to live should they survive, lest they taint others. As such, the Chapter’s line brethren are routinely mind-scoured to preserve their souls, a fact that makes them even more valuable weapons in the hands of the secretive and often necessarily brutal Inquisition. Through repeated mind scouring and deep-core psycho-indoctrination, Red Hunters brethren are instilled with countless subconscious battle doctrines which are only activated by the act of making war.

 

The special rule for this was called "Mnemonic Redaction Protocols".

 

Iirc, the Red Hunters do recognize the Grey Knights in the novel The Emperor's Gift, so it's probably not a complete wipe.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Lay

[Lexington]

I feel like this is just old fluff that's been pasted in carelessly. Of course, Dark Imperium apparently implies that the Imperium has settled down since the end of the Gathering Storm/opening of the Rift, so maybe the Knights are back to their old policies?

 

Really, who knows. Like most of the weirdness and inconsistency in the new lore, it's probably best to assume no one in the Studio put more than a minute's worth of thought into it. Seems to be the most coherent explanation.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Lexington

[OutlawSixActual]

You don't lie to customers.

 

In world, sure. Our world, nope.

Ambiguity and uncertainty is an official part of the canon. You are supposed to determine what is a hard truth, rumor, propaganda, campfire story, or other. It is 100% okay not to believe "canon" in this setting.

[the jeske]

Yeah, but it is a kind of a lazy design. What is next time ripples going through the whole galaxy, so that in each part of it you can have time moving backwards and forwards, or maybe even split with two same things.  existing in two different states at the same time. Only that would be worse.

[The Yak]

2 space marine captains enjoying some down time during a campaign...

 

"So tell me the story of the battle you earned that fancy iron halo of yours cousin"

 

"Ermm I cant remember for the life of me?"

 

"That's odd I've no idea why I've got this bionic leg either"

 

"lets just blame our memory loss on the geneseed"

 

"it's always the geneseed"

[Gentlemanloser]

/Cawl wanders up

 

"I could have fixed your Gene-seed deficiencies.  Just sayin'"

 

/Cawl stroll off at maximum SWAG

[SickSix]

Yeah boys, the only way forward is with 'head-cannon', because GW clearly dont give a about 30 years of lore. It's all about selling models now (which they actually admitted during 6th).

 

So ignore whatever fluff you want to because GW clearly does.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Brother Casman
use the cuss emote

[Gentlemanloser]

Female Marines!

 

Edit: Easily explain with Cawl messing around with genetics, yet again.

 

"Hmmm.  I seem to have found the boob gene...."

Edited June 6, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[jeffersonian000]

The best way to work around head-canon is to assume Grey Knights are intentionally promoted as a myth, as rumors, and as the Men in Black of the 40k setting. Everyone knows someone that's heard a story about someone getting mind wiped are executed over what they think they might have seen, and it's the Grey Knight I tell yah! Mums tell their kids to keep quiet and eat their mush least the darmons come for thrm and the Grey Knights make their patents forget they exist!

 

The way I look at 40k and 30k is as docudramas in 50k playing out myths and epics from the dark times. That's why there are so many variations and inconsistencies, it's artistic license.

 

SJ

[Demigod]

That part of the Grey Knights lore never made any sense what so ever. Armagedon had a point, everyone needed to be mind wiped because they had just seen Angron a Daemon-Primarch fighting on the planet but seeing chaos space marines or cultists most certainly does not get you killed or mind wiped.

 

That kind of action is reserved only if you encounter something truly awful like a greater daemon.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

I think sometimes we forget that we see the bigger picture with 40k that the guys in the universe would not.

 

We see Chaos cultist allied to the big 4 gods- Imperial guardsman would see degenerates worshiping a false god (not the emperor)

 

Remember most of the population has never seen an astartes Or an alien. So stories about them are myths and legends.

 

Well to an astartes grey knights are probably legendary. You may see one if it has all gone messed up but not unless.

 

Plus generally they only fight the battlea others cant. So most of the time the witness die to daemons or gouging their eyes out in madness.

[Gentlemanloser]

Apart from all the Marines on RGs crusade.

 

Where the GK were mixed among the entire fleet, just in case any warp entities tried to have a go.

[Kraytirous]

I think that you're all overlooking that the rules are supposed to represent the Grey Knights throughout history, not just the Indomitus Crusade. None of the lore books are invalid, so if someone picks up Emperor's Gift and goes "holy cow, why are the Grey Knights being such jerks?" they won't understand the context of their existence. Or, if a new Grey Knight novel comes out, and the Grey Knight is having a hard time adjusting to suddenly being regularly in the vicinity of other Space Marines, the reader would lack context. Context that is a huge part of the Grey Knight identity. I feel that it should be there, even if it's in a past tense. It's a really important part of the Grey Knight lore.