Vanguard & Assault Marines

[SyNidus]

With 8th Ed points having been leaked, we can see that there's a small point difference between the assault marines and Vanguard vets.

 

On one hand, Assault marines are definitely cheaper. But for the small extra points cost you get more attacks and access to other weapons.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

[Silentz]

I've been surprised at home affordable Vanguard Vets have become.  My 5 man vets squad was 205 points and is now 151.  25% discount! That's a sergeant with plasma pistol and power sword, 2 standard vets with pistol & chainsword, 2 thunder hammer/storm shield. 

 

Currently planning to run them with a Jump Pack librarian who will drop in with them and cast the power that allows you to reroll charges. Veil of Time I think.  Plus Might of Heroes on a thunder hammer wielder for +1 S, +1 T, +1 A.  Hoping to get those 4 or 5 Thunder Hammer attacks off against a key character that needs to die quickly. 

 

Versus a standard assault squad...   You can take a stock 10 man assault squad for the equivalent of the above... and the new assault squad will now have their pistol shot and 2 attacks each (chainsword + bonus chainsword)...  so the gap in number of attacks isn't as big as it used to be.  

 

I'd say Vanguard Vets should be specialised to kill multi-wound models, whereas assault squads are more suited to attacking things like orks, guard units etc. 

[Damo1701]

With any luck, my Vanguard will be just as killy in 8th edition as they are in 7th edition.

 

My Sternguard got buffed though, being able to fire both parts of their combi-weapons every turn, and the fact the flamer-armed ones will auto-hit, so the negative modifier has no real effect there.

 

The annoying thing is I have to wait until the codex comes out for my Chaplain with Swiftstrike and Murder to see the table again.  He loved bouncing around with the vanguard and getting stuck in.

[Sharrowkyn]

One thing note is that Sternguard have now lost special ammo and instead have a special boltgun: range 30, strength 4 ap -2.

 

Special ammo is for Deathwatch only now!

[Damo1701]

One thing note is that Sternguard have now lost special ammo and instead have a special boltgun: range 30, strength 4 ap -2.

 

Special ammo is for Deathwatch only now!

 

So the idiocy of GW just keeps on coming?

 

Screw that indeed.  I have a feeling that my Sternguard will use normal bolters with specialist ammo.  I am sure I might find an opponent to go along with that.  It makes more sense.

[MajorNese]

With changes to AP and wound allocation, it could make a lot of sense to field vanguard instead of assault squads. If high AP shots are incoming, allocate them to storm shields instead of regular guys, and no AP means regular guys take it. Might lose less models this way, so there's no net loss in points. Then it's the question, do you have spare elite or FA slots...

 

 

 

One thing note is that Sternguard have now lost special ammo and instead have a special boltgun: range 30, strength 4 ap -2.

Special ammo is for Deathwatch only now!

 

So the idiocy of GW just keeps on coming?

 

Screw that indeed.  I have a feeling that my Sternguard will use normal bolters with specialist ammo.  I am sure I might find an opponent to go along with that.  It makes more sense.

Specialist ammo was transferred to Deathwatch only. Those were plain sternguard in 7th, and there was no reason whatsoever to use those guys instead of regular sternguard. Now there's a reason, and specialist ammo is badass. And with this change, sternguard are just slightly cheaper primaris without 2W and AP-2 instead of -1.

[Kua]

Anyone here going to test double plasma pistol vanguard and laugh those filthy PriMarines with their one-handy heavy bolters in their NASA-helmed face? :>

[Damo1701]

With changes to AP and wound allocation, it could make a lot of sense to field vanguard instead of assault squads. If high AP shots are incoming, allocate them to storm shields instead of regular guys, and no AP means regular guys take it. Might lose less models this way, so there's no net loss in points. Then it's the question, do you have spare elite or FA slots...

 

 

 

One thing note is that Sternguard have now lost special ammo and instead have a special boltgun: range 30, strength 4 ap -2.

 

Special ammo is for Deathwatch only now!

 

So the idiocy of GW just keeps on coming?

 

Screw that indeed.  I have a feeling that my Sternguard will use normal bolters with specialist ammo.  I am sure I might find an opponent to go along with that.  It makes more sense.

Specialist ammo was transferred to Deathwatch only. Those were plain sternguard in 7th, and there was no reason whatsoever to use those guys instead of regular sternguard. Now there's a reason, and specialist ammo is badass. And with this change, sternguard are just slightly cheaper primaris without 2W and AP-2 instead of -1.

 

With this change, sternguard make no real sense in being taken.

 

I took and built 10 sternguard partly because of the specialist ammunition.  I don't run Deathwatch.  Heck, Deathwatch weren't even created as an organisation when my Ravenguard force is set.  That being the case, the specialist ammunition would still have a place in my sternguard squads.  I bet it was Guilliman that took all those fancy bolter rounds away from all the chapters...

 

Why would I take Primaris without 2W in exchange for an extra -1AP?  Short answer is, I wouldn't.

 

When I get the Index Imperium 1 book, I'll look at converting my 1,850 Ravenguard force into Power Levels, and see what I come up with.  That being the case, and the fact that paying points for equipped weapons as standard is far too nit-picky to really bother with, it won't overly screw with any balance.  Just need to find out how poison can wound vehicles on a 2+ ;)

[Race Bannon]

To be fair, Deathwatch had the Special Ammo first back in 3rd or 4th edition. It was a huge deal when Sternguard got them in 5th, which was when the unit was created.

[NiceGuyAdi]

I guess Sternguard are now backfield units. No more combi-melta and Drop Pod for you, lads. combi-plasma might work to make them nasty ranged Elites killers? What's the range on that?

[Kua]

For Sternguard, the big change is that special ammo only work in special bolters and no more in combi-weapons.

And it is true that for almost the same cost as Intercessors (-1 P) but half the wounds the unit is very hard to justify. And the latter ones are already considered not that good.

With combi-weapons they can at least try something. They are at least 9 P cheaper than the Hellblasters for -1 W and -1 AP. And a bolter firing mode I’m not sure yet when it’s worth using.

[GreyCrow]

@Kua : When firing combis, you can fire both at a -1 to Hit penalty, right? That means some decent dakka with combi-Plasmas and Flamers.

[Kua]

Flamers: Yes.

But for plasmas there is a breaking point against which enemies you would accept hitting less with plasma.

Just made a quick calculation: Against MEQs it’s almost equal but you’d rather use plasma-only. Against TEQ even more and against IGs both shots ofc.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I got a bit hosed on the changes to sternguard.  My old sternguard are now just going to be a "count as" company vet squad with 5 meltaguns.  Good enough I think.  Doesnt matter too much I think... my 5 "sternguard" and my 5 company vets are likely going into the same drop pod anyways. :D

 

I bought 2 drops pods for 7th... now I only need the one.  This seems like fate tempting me to make a new army.  

[Race Bannon]

Or Fate suggesting to try something different with the army you have.

 

Victory or death!

[duz_]

Interesting notes on VVs and ASMs

I was planning on getting a box both shortly. One because they seems more viable this edition with no scatter deep strike and movement stats, two right now it seems the only way I can make my RG fluffy (three I was always going to do it anyways).

I am no struggling with how to kit them out ... especially the VVs but now ASMs too.

 

Do I go plasma pistol + chainsword instead of the original BP + CS? Do I still go PF + LC on my VVs?

 

I was also going to redo one of my Sternguard grav / combi grav squads to plasma / combi plasma.

Given the changes to combi weapons is there any reason to equip dedicated weapons over combi weapons? Ie should I make them all combi plasma or still include 2 dedicated plasma guns?

 

All the questions! And sure enough I'll make these changes and the codex with change things again ... ha

[Kua]

Dedicated weapons could be ~2 P cheaper, but no, no other reason.

The option is more for heavy weapons.

[duz_]

Hrmmm... I will have to convert the two dedicated melta vets to combi meltas too

[Race Bannon]

I'm sticking with LC/BP for the same reasons as before: reroll to wound with the claw, shooting capability at range, and NOW, in CC (if I wanted for some reason), and cheap.

 

All winning.

 

I'm still making a 2:1 ratio of AM:VV for fluff reasons. But I'm a narrative player ^_^

[Mr. Poe]

I think I'm going to have to do some arm swapping on my VV's this edition. Double LC for everyone! No AP2, No problem! Just drown the enemy in wounds. Works everytime...

[duz_]

Good point my dual LCs got a mini boost. :)

[Mr. Poe]

It's a pretty considerable boost I would say. You can actually threaten 2+ save models now which were the biggest downside of the super expensive 2xLC load out in 7th. Now they are actually cheaper, still have 3 attacks and reduce 2+ save to a 4+. Yes please. 

[Kua]

I don’t think BP+LC is a good now compared to dual LC.

Consider that one is only shooting on one’s own turn, but fighting on both.

By saving 4 points one is changing 2 attacks rerollable with AP -2 for 1 attack AP 0. Even PP (instead of BP) would be worse.

[Race Bannon]

Maybe. By the numbers dual LC is more attractive. Some may not have read the rules leaked to "see" how the game plays. Experience is the true teacher.

 

^_^

[Claws and Effect]

Super expensive?

 

Dual claws on a Vet was only 10 points.

 

Super expensive in an Assault Sgt maybe, but I usually gave him an Eviscerator.