Tactics and musings for 8th edition

[sedibear]

I'm deploying them in buddy groups of two - One meltaspam squad paired with a flamerspam squad.

 

Speaking of spam, lots of folks have been talking about hordes being unpleasant. I wonder if a sisters horde would be something to look at - 15 bodies is pretty cheap, and with psyker support and cover we can get +2 to our armor saves to offset AP.

 

Our horde also shoots twice. :D

[ERJAK]

  On 6/15/2017 at 11:43 AM, Atrus said:

 

  On 6/15/2017 at 6:15 AM, ERJAK said:

 

 

  On 6/15/2017 at 2:26 AM, Atrus said:

Just double checked the wordings on sisters reroll sources. All of them except seraphim say 'can' reroll.

So yeah...poor seraphim.

Found a Loophole! Celestine's ability increases the models invulnerable save by 1, not the save ROLL.

 

Since Celestine is modifying the statistic and not the dice it isn't subject to the wibbly wobbly timey wimey thing with rerolls vs normal modifiers.

'Fraid not. Just checked her entry and it says friendly Adepta Sororitas units within 6" add 1 to their Shield of Faith saves. That's a +1 modifier. Shame, I really thought you'd found the solution. If it was phrased like: ...have a 5+ SoF save; then that'd be spot on.

 

But I feel like I've started to derail this thread with the reroll thing. While this tangent is interesting, it's not what this threads about.

 

How do we think Immo spam would fare these days? Min squads of sisters with no upgrades slapped inside Immos of varying breeds? (I've never had enough Immo's to try this myself in the past)

Because it doesn't specify the ROLL whereas pretty much everything else that is a modifier to the dice actually says roll, I would still say it's modifying thw statistic.

 

Also immo spam with melta girls and immolation flamers is gonna be pretty darn good. And if hordes really are the new meta we could go full immoflamer/SB/flamer and charbroil like 200 conscripts per turn.

[micahwc]

So priests add +1 attack to friendly infantry units within 6" that have the keywords "astra militarum" or "Adeptus Ministorum". I watched a battle report today where a guy brought 3 priests. I was thinking, since ministorum priests have the "adeptus ministorum" keyword as well as the "infantry" keyword, they can benefit from the +1 attack from war hymns. A priest is a friendly unit within 6" of itself, so every priest should give itself +1 attack. Also, if you have three priests within 6" of each other, each should give itself +1 attack, as well as each other priest +1 attack.

 

So three priests within 6" of each other should all have 6 attacks each.

 

I think they need to errata a rule saying that unless specifically stated, bonuses to stats can't stack from multiple sources. Put three priests next to a unit of Repentia or even behind 20 conscripts. 20 conscripts and 3 priests is 165 points. 80 attacks in close combat. Add a platoon commander to give them the order to "fix bayonets" to allow them to close combat attack.

 

Stacking priest buffs seems a bit broken.  

[KiwiBen]

  On 6/15/2017 at 8:42 PM, micahwc said:

So priests add +1 attack to friendly infantry units within 6" that have the keywords "astra militarum" or "Adeptus Ministorum". I watched a battle report today where a guy brought 3 priests. I was thinking, since ministorum priests have the "adeptus ministorum" keyword as well as the "infantry" keyword, they can benefit from the +1 attack from war hymns. A priest is a friendly unit within 6" of itself, so every priest should give itself +1 attack. Also, if you have three priests within 6" of each other, each should give itself +1 attack, as well as each other priest +1 attack.

 

So three priests within 6" of each other should all have 6 attacks each.

 

I think they need to errata a rule saying that unless specifically stated, bonuses to stats can't stack from multiple sources. Put three priests next to a unit of Repentia or even behind 20 conscripts. 20 conscripts and 3 priests is 165 points. 80 attacks in close combat. Add a platoon commander to give them the order to "fix bayonets" to allow them to close combat attack.

 

Stacking priest buffs seems a bit broken.  

 

I think Priests will be a similar kettle of fish to the BroCap buffs for Grey Knights.  The entry says for Units within 6" of "any friendly MINISTORUM PRIESTS".  The key there is the plural "priests".  You would have 1 priest, or 100, the buff still only gets applied once.  If it was a singular, then it would definitely need an FAQ/Errata.

 

As much as I'd like to put half a dozen priests behind a unit of Arco Flagellants for 8d3 attacks per model (2 base + 6x Priest Bonus) ... I don't think it'll fly.

Edited June 15, 2017 by KiwiBen

[Sister Alessia]

I do the same Daimin. Don't want all my burny eggs in one basket :)

[ERJAK]

  On 6/15/2017 at 9:20 PM, KiwiBen said:

 

  On 6/15/2017 at 8:42 PM, micahwc said:

 

So priests add +1 attack to friendly infantry units within 6" that have the keywords "astra militarum" or "Adeptus Ministorum". I watched a battle report today where a guy brought 3 priests. I was thinking, since ministorum priests have the "adeptus ministorum" keyword as well as the "infantry" keyword, they can benefit from the +1 attack from war hymns. A priest is a friendly unit within 6" of itself, so every priest should give itself +1 attack. Also, if you have three priests within 6" of each other, each should give itself +1 attack, as well as each other priest +1 attack.

 

So three priests within 6" of each other should all have 6 attacks each.

 

I think they need to errata a rule saying that unless specifically stated, bonuses to stats can't stack from multiple sources. Put three priests next to a unit of Repentia or even behind 20 conscripts. 20 conscripts and 3 priests is 165 points. 80 attacks in close combat. Add a platoon commander to give them the order to "fix bayonets" to allow them to close combat attack.

 

Stacking priest buffs seems a bit broken.

I think Priests will be a similar kettle of fish to the BroCap buffs for Grey Knights. The entry says for Units within 6" of "any friendly MINISTORUM PRIESTS". The key there is the plural "priests". You would have 1 priest, or 100, the buff still only gets applied once. If it was a singular, then it would definitely need an FAQ/Errata.

 

As much as I'd like to put half a dozen priests behind a unit of Arco Flagellants for 8d3 attacks per model (2 base + 6x Priest Bonus) ... I don't think it'll fly.

Don't forget the ANY. Because think about it, if you get the bonus for being within 6" of ANY priest, if they stacked you'd be getting the bonus for EVERY priest so long as you were in range of 1. Fortunately the whole sentence stops the buff from stacking so you can't string out 10 priests and give an entire table +10 attacks.

[Sister Alessia]

Just want to give a quick shout out to Beams for his excellent Storm bolter advice. My last game I didn't have any regular bolters, just heavy and storm. Guard horde was no problem ;) Also the vanguard move on Dominions meant they were fine without a transport. I went 2 whole matches without a flamer killing a single guard infantry. Flamers are just far to random for me, with me on average rolling 2 shots. However with my Canoness letting me re-roll ones to hit, my storm bolters were great.

[Voldrak]

The standard outrider lists right now do both horde and monsters really well.

 

4 squads of dominions with 4 meltaguns each and a combi-flamer.

all in Immolators with immolation flamers.

 

that is 16 meltaguns, 4d6 flamers and 8d6 immolation flamers

 

 

Use seraphims and retributors to round up your army and you have something very flexible on your hand.
 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Voldrak

[micahwc]

I finished 10 of my kitbashed dominions with flamers last night. Dominions seem like they will certainly be one of the stars of the index.

[Daimhin]

  On 6/16/2017 at 1:56 PM, micahwc said:

I finished 10 of my kitbashed dominions with flamers last night. Dominions seem like they will certainly be one of the stars of the index.

That's interesting. I have been thinking they are less "essential" now. In 7th I never left home without 2 squads but I'm now creating lists with none, or just 1 squad.

 

I think Seraphim and Battle Sisters both look better than before (pistols + deep strike, and split fire) and I'm just not fitting Dominions in.

[Servant of Dante]

It's almost as if we have more than 1 viable build strategy now . . . :D

 

I'm just happy to see Seraphim getting taken as a legitimate choice.

[Noeh]

I agree on the non-essential dominions aspect. I still think multiple small squads of seraphim will work out better than dominions. You can put them directly where they are needed, equip 4 flamers or meltas a squad (weaker versions but still great), and they can seriously move..all for a rather inexpensive cost. They also aren't reliant on the more expensive transports to get around.

[HoboAnarki]

  On 6/15/2017 at 6:19 PM, sedibear said:

I'm deploying them in buddy groups of two - One meltaspam squad paired with a flamerspam squad.

 

Speaking of spam, lots of folks have been talking about hordes being unpleasant. I wonder if a sisters horde would be something to look at - 15 bodies is pretty cheap, and with psyker support and cover we can get +2 to our armor saves to offset AP.

 

Our horde also shoots twice.

 

I think the thing that's making all the hordes look good, conscripts, boyz, genestealers etc., is that they have a way to mitigate morale tests, commisars, mob rule, synapse and so on.

 

We just don't have anything that's quite as good as those, although an inquisitor and dialogus do make nearby units reasonably resilient to morale tests.

[Voldrak]

  On 6/16/2017 at 2:03 PM, Daimhin said:

 

  On 6/16/2017 at 1:56 PM, micahwc said:

I finished 10 of my kitbashed dominions with flamers last night. Dominions seem like they will certainly be one of the stars of the index.

That's interesting. I have been thinking they are less "essential" now. In 7th I never left home without 2 squads but I'm now creating lists with none, or just 1 squad.

 

I think Seraphim and Battle Sisters both look better than before (pistols + deep strike, and split fire) and I'm just not fitting Dominions in.

 

 

Seraphims are definitely good. They are fast, can benefit easilly from cover and can play critical roles, with AoF, in getting late game objectives. They are also a great harassment unit to tie down your opponents tanks (land raiders, predators come to mind). Their firepower is ok at best considering their flamers are only strength 3 and inferno pistols are such a short range weapon. 

 

Unless you're going for a Brigage, there is no reason to take basic battle sisters. They have two less special weapons than dominions and are only 1 point cheaper as a tradeoff to the excellent vanguard rule.

 

Pistols are also a crutch for when you absolutely cannot fallback with a unit. Sisters in assault are nearly useless. One attack base at strenght 3 and no way to get more than one special melee weapon means they should not remain in assault. Fallback in your next movement phase and then burn the heretics with your flamers instead.

 

Deepstrike is also a trap for Seraphims. If they use this rule, they cannot shoot their hand flamers or inferno pistols on the turn they come in. No one is afraid of bolt pistols and, potentially, a single plasma pistol shot. You would be better starting them on the table and moving them 24 inches by using an Act of Faith on them. Get them into a position where they can do some serious damage turn one.

[Beams]

You deepstrike to grab objectives and put psychological pressure on your opponent.

 

Also, to put your seraphim into cover for that nice 2 up armor save.

 

So turn one now they've got battle sisters charging from the front and holding the objectives on that side of the table, since dominions get a vanguard move and everything else can be act of faith Ed, and a bunch of seraphim sitting on the ruins objective, do they try and dislodge the seraphim for a victory point and get blasted by the battle sisters? Or do they fight the battle sisters, forgoing the objective, and then have to deal with the seraphim leaping forward and burning turn 2?

 

Obviously, this depends on board setup, but that allows for a lot of tactical flexibility that we didn't have before.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Beams

[Noeh]

As somebody who has always tried to play for points over kills, I like the new way deepstriking works. Worst case drop several squads of seraphim right up close and scare the opponent off from something.

[Atrus]

So just got my hands on imperium 2. Whered our meltabombs go? NO ONE in index imperium 2 has access to meltabombs.

[taikishi]

Only Marines have them now, and they're thrown just like all other grenades. I'm not really sure they're worth it under those circumstances.

 

Also, Imperial Armour for Astartes has a Sisters storm bolter at 2 points on page 74, but the Imperium II index has them listed at 4 points on page 156.

[Noeh]

Maybe it's going to change with a day 1 FAQ. I've been seeing rumours of points changes already happening.

[taikishi]

Kind of sad, really, that a system that is supposed to be their most play tested by the best players and TOs.... has this many problems at launch.

 

How many people actually play tested this outside of GW employees? Six? Seven? I mean, I get that we're human and make mistakes but usually something like this has hundreds, or possibly even thousands, of play testers that throw feedback at one another and the parent company. Where one group may be perfectly in synch with the parent company on how things are played, another may find questions that lead to things being clarified.

 

Doesn't mean everything is going to be right out of the gate but considering day 1 points changes, Imagifier and Celestine questions, issues with how re-rolls work... it'd at least be better than what we've got.

[CaptainMarsh]

I have yet to see Day 1 points change, and we're past Day 1.

Anyway, so I have got 18 games of 8th in, 14 with Sisters. They are rock solid at lower power/points. Very difficult to deal with and effective. They do lack once points and power go up, but the Imagifier/Exorcist trick can solve problems easily. I paired them with Militarum Tempestus so my plasma boys and melta girls could play nice and it was a very devastating combo.

[Gen.Steiner]

EIGHTEEN games of 8th Edition!? EIGHTEEN!?

Good lord!

I've played one turn!

*ahem*

In other news... started to sort out my Repentia this weekend. Big squad of 9 with a Superior (I refuse to call her by the official name) in a Rhino for some counter-assault choppiness.

Really need to try and find a cheap source of Seraphim though.

[Sir_Gaea]

I hope this is okay if I post this here.

  Reveal hidden contents

Yesterday I played my first game of 8th edition at my local GW. I was tooled up for a game, but saw that 2 of the 3 tables were covered with pre-orders. Lamenting this, I just stood there reading the new rule book trying to get a handle on the way Sisters are. Luckily someone wanted to try out 8th, so he and I set up a 50 power point game. He played Eldar and I was Sisters.
After moaning about how I didn’t have many points after taking my usual 2 Basic Sister Squads, I remembered reading how there were different formations. I found the one that needed 1 hq and 3 fast attack and assembled my list.
[My List]
Celestine
-The Twins
Dominion squad w/ 4 meltas and 1 combi-melta in a Falmer Immolator
Dominion squad w/ 4 meltas and 1 combi-melta in a Falmer Immolator
Seraphim w/ 2 hand flamers and Superior with plasma and power sword
Retributers with 4 Heavy Bolters and 1 storm bolter
Exorcist
Imagifier
Hospitalier

[Xeno Eldar Scum List]
Head honcho on jet bike
3 Jet bike with scatter lasers
3 Jet bike with scatter lasers
3 Jet bike with scatter lasers
3 Jet bike with scatter lasers
Swooping hawk ~8 models
Swooping hawk ~8 models
Some kind of tank

The table was a 4x4 foot table, shadow wars of Armageddon layout, so VERY cluttered. His tank was on one corner of the board and my exorcist was 4ft away in the opposite cover. The only line of sight they had was to each other. We discovered this after we deployed.
He won first round, took 2 wounds off my exorcist then got 2 squads of jet bikes into Rapid Fire range and attacked The Saint and the Twins. Only three attacks made it through my armor, killing one Twin and wounding the other. My turn, I passed all three Acts of Faith (burning a command point to get my universal Act of Faith) and used it to move my 2 Immos up and fire with my Exorcist. (I realize that I can’t use the AoF I did on the Immos, but they had Vanguard move anyway. Success?) Knocked 3 wounds off his tank and was in range to hurt some Elves on Bikes. I also returned the dead Gemini to life. (Poor guy then had a fit about how he KILLED that Model. How he spent an entire round of firing to KILL the ONE Model. I informed him that 1 Gemini auto revives a turn. I almost felt sorry for that Xeno commander. Almost.) I was able to kill 3 models that turn.
Start of the second turn he remembered that he could bring in reserves whenever he chooses, without needing a reroll, (Someone argued that with him at length. He still didn’t need to reroll) but it needed to be 9 inches away from my models. He had to set them up in his back field because I was so spread out. After a bunch of firing, I lost 2 dominions, 2 Gemini, and knocked one immolator to 2 wounds. Celestine’s Aura of boosting Shield of Faith helped, as did the fast that 3+ armor saves actually mean something. Start of my turn, my 2 AoF allowed for 3 units to fire. His tank was knocked down to 2 wounds, and I roasted quite a bit of Eldar with my units. After moving around (Dominions only have 6” of move felt slow compared to vehicles and Seraphim) I started to roll him up. My hand flamers got 22 attacks, but only 3 were strong enough to wound the jetbikes. All in all I removed 7 swooping hawks, one tank, and ~6 jetbikes. My assault phase I then removed 2 swooping hawks, 5 jetbikes, and Celestine spanked the Eldar HQ, leaving it with 3 wounds.
Third turn he jumped out of melee, wiped one squad (of 2 remaining) Dominion and wiped out my Retributers. Those Heavy Bolters only landed 3 wounds. Oh, he also popped one immolator and reduced the other one to 2 wounds. My turn I had only 2 AoF. I used one to move my immolator out of close combat and the other to move my last dominion squad closer to the enemy. Shooting phse saw my Exorcist wipe out the Swooping Hawks, avenging the Retributers. The Dominion squad (3 sisters) killed the last jetbike, and the Seraphim roasted the Head Honcho in 18 attacks. We then noticed that there were still 3 swooping hawks he and I forgot about (They were primed the same color as the playing board.) He gave up at that point.
So, aside from 2 wiped squads and a destroyed Immolator, I won.

So, afterwards he and I talked. We agreed that, even though we didn’t know this edition and kept flipping around to look up stuff, it was still faster and easier to play then 7th edition.

P.S. someone disagreed with me on how the Acts of Faith worked. I stated that the universal AoF applied only to those who had the Act of Faith Keyword, Celstine’s allowed Adepta Sororitas to use an AoF, and that the Imagifier allowed anyone in her Order to use an AoF. He threw up his hands and stalked away. Also, a lot of people were surprised that Sisters were rolling up the Eldar.

[CaptainMarsh]

As long as there is no clarification from a GW FAQ on the way AoF work, expect that reaction. Good job!

Edited June 18, 2017 by CaptainMarsh

[Beams]

I find Sisters to be pretty good, even if I can't get the hang of flamers.

 

They aren't nearly as good at killing hordes as they were in last edition, but they are much better at forcing saves on small elite unites.