Tactics and musings for 8th edition

[Atrus]

All this about storm bolters makes me wonder what to use on tanks and creatures. Does anyone have experience with just using Seraphim for hunting big things? Then what do we use the Exorcist on, anything that looks at use funny?

I find Exorcists as a tank and vehicle hunter is a waste of time. Melta doms outshine it everyday of the week.

As a heavy infantry and monster hunter? This is where the exorcist finds its place imo.

 

Ive seen battle reports of players throwing exorcist shots against razorbacks with minimal results often taken 3-4 turns to down it. Meanwhile biker squads have been right in a good firing line. Personally id have been throwing shots at the bikes and p otentially wiping whole squads of those at a time (squad size depending) more bang for the buck and immediate effect.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Atrus

[Gen.Steiner]

Yeah, the Exorcist is much better at slotting infantry than it is tanks. That's what we have our MM immolators and Dominions for!

In terms of the feel of the army - fast, shooty, and with Celestians, surprisingly punchy. I'm going to try and have a bigger game today so I can try out things like Celestine.

[Atrus]

Im impressed you take celestians so often and glad you find them incredibly useful.

I still cant find a reason to take a squad of them over BSS.

[Noeh]

Im impressed you take celestians so often and glad you find them incredibly useful.

I still cant find a reason to take a squad of them over BSS.

 If you can't find a reason to take them over BSS, then they must truly be awful. After the last few games, the only reason I would ever take BSS is if I wanted more command points. Heck, I'd probably just put in IG troops instead. Way cheaper and just as effective at surviving anything shot their way.

[Gen.Steiner]

Celestians, with 2A base, and tooled up with flamers, are really aggressive. Get in the enemy's face, burn them, then kick the survivors' heads in. I loves 'em.

Stock Sisters squads are great mobile firebases, and with a bit of help from Acts of Faith can be either super-shooty or super-mobile depending on what's required.

Looking forwards to trying out a few more options today if I can or Thursday if not today.

[Montford]

All this about storm bolters makes me wonder what to use on tanks and creatures. Does anyone have experience with just using Seraphim for hunting big things? Then what do we use the Exorcist on, anything that looks at use funny?

 

I used a Seraphim Squad which took down a Stormraven in a single shooting phase from full health to dead. Of course I had to get them within 3 inches to take full advantage of the inferno pistols   In another game both Seraphim and a Multi-melta armed Retributor squad killed a Land Raider. It exploded and I lost a good deal of the Seraphim, so there are definitely risks to using them for anti-armor. I choose to do that because of their amazing mobility with the current Act of Faith rules. I have also used Penitent Engines to amazing effect on large wound models.

 

I have used Exorcists on a wide range of targets to varying effect. The main issue is their unreliable rate of fire, as the strength, AP and damage are all good. Basically yeah, shoot the Exorcists at anything you like within 48 inches. Those are my examples from what I have thus far played in 8th pertinent to your question.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Montford981

[Gen.Steiner]

Inferno Seraphim and melta Dominions are fairly one-use - point them at a target, it dies, they die. So the trick is to make sure that what they're killing is worth the exchange.

[CaptainMarsh]

 

Im impressed you take celestians so often and glad you find them incredibly useful.

I still cant find a reason to take a squad of them over BSS.

 If you can't find a reason to take them over BSS, then they must truly be awful. After the last few games, the only reason I would ever take BSS is if I wanted more command points. Heck, I'd probably just put in IG troops instead. Way cheaper and just as effective at surviving anything shot their way.

 

BSS are very effective when played right. They are just as tough as Guardsmen, but have a 3+ save ad the ability to benefit from AoF. In many of the games I've played in 8th, BSS have often been the pivot of victory and defeat. Fact is, Sisters have some awfully good tactics and units in this edition but we are still limited. Almost everything with have lacks the ability to take hits outside of Celestine and vehicles. But a 15 model BSS squad does have the ability to soak some hits. It can keep on going. And with AoF, it can put out a fusilade of firepower that can tear apart opposing infantry. I've had my Sisters go up against Harlequins, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Guard(infantry blob and vehicle heavy), Deathwatch, Vanilla Marines, Necrons, Orks, and earlier today Tyranids. I've never regretted having at least two full squads of Battle Sisters. I've never went, "Wow, these units didn't pull their weight/can't blame the dice". 

 

They could, of course, be better. I think they should be twenty sisters and our special and special/heavy quotas should go up for every five or, at the very least, double once we're at ten or above.

[ERJAK]

 

 

Im impressed you take celestians so often and glad you find them incredibly useful.

I still cant find a reason to take a squad of them over BSS.

If you can't find a reason to take them over BSS, then they must truly be awful. After the last few games, the only reason I would ever take BSS is if I wanted more command points. Heck, I'd probably just put in IG troops instead. Way cheaper and just as effective at surviving anything shot their way.

Immolators+12 command points. I have an immospam brigade list I like and the BSS with two specials and a SB superior are enough for some seriously solid fire power and arguably the heaviest viable MSU in the game while being very cheap. Is domi+seraphim spam better? Probably, but BSS still have their place.

[Noeh]

I just fail to see why you would take BSS now when dominions cost the same and can have 4 special weapons.Sure you can get a few more command points, but I don't think you would need as many when you have girls that output a crapload more firepower compared to regular BSS.

My survivability comment was due to the fact that so many things all the way down to basic troops seem to make a 3+ save into a 5+ or 6+ with how many -ap weapons there are out there.

[Gen.Steiner]

Don't forget that BSS are cheaper and easier to build. In addition, as Erjak said, for the real Command Point lists, you need 6 Troops choices, and that means BSS.

I'm stuck until we get plastic Sisters really, because there's no way I'm buying another 40 or so metal Sisters, but with Immospam lists you can't really beat MSU BSS. Dominions are icing on the cake, not a mainstay unit in my opinion.

[Noeh]

Don't forget that BSS are cheaper and easier to build. In addition, as Erjak said, for the real Command Point lists, you need 6 Troops choices, and that means BSS.

 

I'm stuck until we get plastic Sisters really, because there's no way I'm buying another 40 or so metal Sisters, but with Immospam lists you can't really beat MSU BSS. Dominions are icing on the cake, not a mainstay unit in my opinion.

 

I forget that people use REAL sisters models sometimes, sorry. My dominions are much much cheaper. Actually I think they come out to be cheaper than my BSS too.

[Gen.Steiner]

Heh, no worries. I try to keep non GW stuff to a minimum in my collections because most of my games take place in GW shops.

In terms of survivability I would put 10-15 strong BSS above MSU Dominions, although I do admit that they have the potential for more potent firepower (5 meltas!). I'm just still pretty sure that as there is a place for Tactical Marines, Guard Infantry Squads, and Grot Mobs, there's also a place for the humble BSS.

[Noeh]

I actually wasn't even suggesting MSU dominions though. Just being able to take 4 special weapons and cost the same kinda puts them as better than BSS. You just can't take a heavy weapon in their group...but 2 more specials kinda makes up for it.

[Gen.Steiner]

Ah, I see what you mean. Take Dominions as 10-strong units in place of BSS. Well, it's certainly an option, and a pretty powerful one at that; no arguments there.

[Noeh]

Yup. so you could still have your girl blobs, but this time you could have essentially a gunline with 30 girls and half of them would be stormbolters. You just massively increase your bullet output for 12 points more than the same amount of BSS with all stormbolters.

[Sister Alessia]

They crazy thing is. At the point level  I play at, it's easier to get command points with Doms than Bss. Really can't see the point in taking Bss in small point games. 3 points for vanguard move and double the firepower, yes please! I'm actually getting people saying SOB are overpowered lol.

[CaptainMarsh]

Survivability is a factor, additionally, of size. 15 BSS is simply more to chew through. There are many weapons which affect their save but they aren't outrageously common in basic infantry unless you're playing specialized armies (or Necrons)

Points wise, my average BSS squad costs 149 points for a full squad of 15 Sisters (Two Storm Bolters and a Heavy Bolter). The cost of my average 5-Sister Dominion squad with 4 Meltas and a Combi-Melta is 133 points. That melta squad can do something amazing, but it requires support to get there. Most Dominion builds require support to do much of anything. They work amazing with Immolators, who have a low transport capacity.

Ten Dominions with five stormbolters is 110 points. Very good firepower- less survivability. 

In the end it comes down to playstyles. I tend to use my Dominions and Seraphims as pressure units along with Celestine and Immolators. BSS and Crusaders tend to follow in, securing objectives and holding them. For me, my gameplan tends to revolve around applying maximum pressure immediately and either forcing him to try and dislodge large infantry forces that are built to take hits or having the capacity to table him. Large BSS work wonderfully for this. 

The argument against BSS can be made for more than a few troop choices in 8th due to how force org charts. It is a bit unfair to Troops choices I believe. No, BSS aren't point for point more efficient than Dominions. Tactical Squads are outdone, Fire Warriors are considered an afterthought, an IG Infantry Squad barely matters, no one remembers the Eldar have troops. But if you want to bring Brigade and Battalion Detachments, you need Troops. And BSS are, in my opinion, one of the best in the game at small, medium, and large sizes.

[Gen.Steiner]

CaptainMarsh - yes, good point. Because my collection is quite limited, I am restricted in what units I can and can't take, so have to develop tactics to work with that.

Which means that BSS and Celestians are the main force, with specialist units like Dominions, Seraphim, Repentia etc having very specific, aggressive roles, to push the opponent and to make them react to me. Meanwhile BSS can secure objectives, provide fire support, and defend - or attack - as needed, while my Celestians can support the pressure point and reinforce success (or make it).

[Beams]

My collection is also quite limited.

 

I have 12 stormbolters (when I first started someone sold me a "lot of special weapons" that turned out to be a Flamer and 11 stormbolters, regretted that until 8th landed)

 

Maybe 15 BSS

4 flamers

4 meltaguns

2 imagifiers

1 multimelta

1 heavy flamer

10ish seraphim bolt pistol

6 hflamer seraphim

3 seraphim superiors with plans and power sword

2 seraphim superiors with bolt pistol and power sword

New Celestine

Old Celestine

3 exorcists

2 immolators

2 Repressors (kit bashed)

4 repentia (actual model)

8 Repentia (kitbashed)

1 mistress (kitbashed)

2 Penitent engines that never stay built

 

And a collection of sculpted Arcos and kitbashed priests.

 

At at least $10 plus shipping, I am slowly getting more meltas and Flamers, but am trying to pick up models second hand, when i can afford to/find them cheap. Luckily, my group trends to play team games with 750 points a side.

 

EDIT:

Just played a game with this list:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336404-sisters-1000-with-pdf-cannons/

 

5 stormbolters and 5 Bolters is a really powerful, really cheap loadouts. Doesn't need a transport since it can move 12(18 with AoF) in the first turn and get to cover, and is cheap enough and small enough of a profile that your opponent will focus on your bigger, scarier stuff. Until you force 20+ saves spread out onto two different squads a turn with them.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Beams

[Montford]

Has anyone used Assassins in 8th? If so, can you provide some feedback?

[Sanul]

Assassins are great for their cost. I once had a game versus drukhari and had three assassins as distraction while I advance my four immolators (carrying two dominion sqads and two battle sister flamer squads) and one rhino (with 10 DCA) towards him. Worked great! The Culexus killed their psionic and ran amok with his D6 ranged attack. The Eversor took out a squad with heavy weapon and then took about 6-8 lance shots to get killed, giving time for my vehicles to advance. Only the Callidus failed to do anything. Failed the 7 inch charge, got shot and failed every saving throw. Dead on the spot. But even that gave time for my vehicles / sisters to close into shooting range. From that point on he was cornered into his setup zone and got rolled over.

 

Next time I will try three vindicares, for extensive character sniping :>

[GodwynDi]

I really want to. I have a vindicare and callidus that haven't seen play in a very long time. They look to excel at assassinating (surprise) but with the monster that is Celestine, characters haven't been too much a problem yet. Callidus looks to be the more useful of the two I have, the sisters have shooting pretty well covered.

[hunterkiler86]

Has anyone used Assassins in 8th? If so, can you provide some feedback?

i have been using my Vindicare assassin alot more in this edition. very good for taking on characters.  Have yet to use the other assassins.

[taikishi]

Would Ratlings work better as snipers?

 

vs. MEQ

Vindicare: 90 pts, 1.157 unsaved wounds per turn

Shots * % chance to hit * % chance to wound * % chance to fail save * average damage per unsaved wound

1 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 2

25/36 * 5/6 * 2

125/216 * 2

250/216

1.157

 

10 Ratlings: 60 pts, 0.926 unsaved wounds per turn

Shots * % chance to hit * % chance to wound * (%chance of failed save + % chance to inflict mortal wound) * 1 (only ever inflict 1 damage)

10 * 2/3 * 1/2 * (1/3 * 1/3 + 1/6 * 1) * 1

10 * 1/3 * (1/9 + 1/6)

10/3 * 5/18

50/54

0.926

 

You're inflicting less WPT on average, but you're relying on your numbers to force more saves and to sneak in mortal wounds that the Exitus Rifle doesn't inflict. A 5-man Space Marine scout squad with camo cloaks, otoh, inflicts half as many wounds as the Ratlings do for the same price as a Vindicare.

Edited July 10, 2017 by taikishi