Tactics and musings for 8th edition

[taikishi]

After all the other conversation here and elsewhere, I'd rather have three squads of 15 Dominions with storm bolters than one squad of 15 battle sisters.

 

1. We don't have the means to mitigate morale on a blob squad so the firepower into that blob is going to whittle it down faster

 

2. it may be more KP, but your forces are spread out for more objective taking and even on foot those Dominions are likely to be in rapid fire range turn 1.

 

3. 15 Dominions w/ storm bolters = 180 points, 30 shots @ 24", 60 shots @ 12"

    15 Battle Sisters w/ 2 storm bolters and a heavy bolter = 149 points, 19 shots @ 24", 35 shots @ 12"

    With one AoF, those numbers become 40/80 for the Dominions, 38/70 for the BSS

    vs. MEQ

    Dominions: min 3.33 WPT, max 8.89 WPT (inc. AoF)

    Battle Sisters: min 2.44 WPT, max 8.44 WPT (inc AoF)

[sedibear]

I'm on the blob side here. Unless you're packing flamers or meltas on the dominions.

 

We have a dialogus to help mitigate the effects of morale, and the hospitaler/imagifier setup lets us resurrect two models at a time. We necron now boys!

 

If my opponent wants to throw a disproportionate amount of firepower at the blob he can be my guest.

 

That said, they are built for different jobs. The blob can hold a single objective far better. If I'm using doms for objective grabbing i'd rather not spend points on them, though.

[Servant of Dante]

I agree that a large BSS seems much better suited to static objective holding, but really I'll be using one regardless just because I like having all those models in one unit :D

 

Plus if you're holding a back line or midfield objective your Dominions weapons will be out of effective range more often than not, so why not take the cheaper models and give one a HB that is almost always in range of something. In any case it's just a matter of personal preference

[taikishi]

I'm on the blob side here. Unless you're packing flamers or meltas on the dominions.

 

We have a dialogus to help mitigate the effects of morale, and the hospitaler/imagifier setup lets us resurrect two models at a time. We necron now boys!

 

If my opponent wants to throw a disproportionate amount of firepower at the blob he can be my guest.

 

That said, they are built for different jobs. The blob can hold a single objective far better. If I'm using doms for objective grabbing i'd rather not spend points on them, though.

 

I'm sorry, but the Dialogus doesn't do much to mitigate morale for blob units. Not the way a Commisar, 'Ere We Go, Warboss or Tyranids mitigate it. At the moment, our blobs are a waste of points compared to the other options available, including taking Imperial Guard conscripts if you need bubble wrapping.

[taikishi]

I agree that a large BSS seems much better suited to static objective holding, but really I'll be using one regardless just because I like having all those models in one unit

 

Plus if you're holding a back line or midfield objective your Dominions weapons will be out of effective range more often than not, so why not take the cheaper models and give one a HB that is almost always in range of something. In any case it's just a matter of personal preference

 

As I just told Sedibear, if you want/need a blob, take Conscripts + a Commisar. Storm bolter Dominions are, point for point, one of our best units at the moment. Probably moreso than Flamer minions due to their random nature, and the ability to vangaurd after Seize gives them a lot more flexibility, as well as firepower, than a base BSS. At 5 models, it's also a lot easier to get them into cover than the 15-model blob. Really, the only reason for BSS atm are:

 

1. you want to play Pure Sisters

2. you're trying to unlock a Brigade since you can get as many or more CP with multiple small detachments (as long as you're willing to pay for the extra HQ each time) than one Battalion

3. you're playing in an environment that's restricting the number of detachments or sub-factions you can bring (thus preventing Conscripts, for example)

[Servant of Dante]

I mean, if there's an objective in your half of the table, and it's a bad spot for Retributors, what else would you hold it with? Dominions would be a waste, I guess if you have a vehicle left late game and there are no enemies nearby you could run over and grab it. The BSS offers a good number of bodies that are OK hanging back (unlike Dominions who really need to get in close to use their weapons).

 

This is assuming you're running only Sisters units

[Beams]

There are reasons to do both:

 

Large squads get better efficiency from acts of faith

 

You can double move 5 Dominions for a last turn rush into an objective or you can double move 15 BSS

 

You can punch an extra 15 times vs 5 times, if your stuck in combat with a punch of gaunts, guards, whatever

 

You can double fire 15 Bolters (60 shots) vs 5 stormbolters (40 shots)

 

And if the opponent kills 15 Dominions (5*3) vs 15 bss they get 3x the kill points.

 

Also, BSS are troops, and judging from the space Marines getting 26 strategems, it looks like taking command points is going to be very important.

[taikishi]

Dante,

 

Storm Bolter Dominions have the exact same range as Battle Sisters and twice the fire power for only 1/3 more points! This isn't comparing Flamer-minions or Melta-minions to BSS, this is comparing 5-model SB-minions to BSS of any size

 

For 3 more points per model you get:

* Vanguard after Sieze for tactical flexibility

* twice as many shots on a model-per-model basis

* multiple smaller units that are easier to get into cover, and therefor harder to dislodge

* units that likely won't care about battle shock because you'll either not do enough damage to force the test or they're dedicating firepower to wipe out a 5-man squad

* add in an Immolator or Repressor for more maneuverability for the squad, and more firepower

* a squad that is actually harder to shoot at and charge due to a smaller footprint on the board

 

What you lose is

* a larger squad for bubble wrapping your transports/characters

* a larger squad to fight in close combat with

* a larger squad for contesting objectives (mitigated by the increased firepower)

[taikishi]

There are reasons to do both:

 

Large squads get better efficiency from acts of faith

 

You can double move 5 Dominions for a last turn rush into an objective or you can double move 15 BSS

 

You can punch an extra 15 times vs 5 times, if your stuck in combat with a punch of gaunts, guards, whatever

 

You can double fire 15 Bolters (60 shots) vs 5 stormbolters (40 shots)

 

And if the opponent kills 15 Dominions (5*3) vs 15 bss they get 3x the kill points.

 

Also, BSS are troops, and judging from the space Marines getting 26 strategems, it looks like taking command points is going to be very important.

 

Outrider and Spearhead detachments. Unless you're trying to unlock a brigade, Outrider and Spearhead detachments actually offer more options than a Battalion. An Outrider and two Spearheads give you 6-14 Heavy Support (Penitents, Exorcists, Rets), 3-10 Fast Attack (Dominions, Seraphim), up to 6 Elites, up to 6 Flyers, up to 9 troops, and a required 3 HQs. Basically, +1 mandatory HQ for the same CP as a Battallion while opening more slots for our best units.

[Servant of Dante]

I'm saying if you have an objective where 24 inch range isn't enough, why pay the extra points? Just add in a HB on a BSS and sit back. 3 ppm is a lot when the basic Sister costs 9.

 

Plus if you want to do a Batallion for the command points you'll need some troops choices. Since I don't want to run more HQs (I don't do special characters and multiple canonesses don't work well for my fluff) I want to run a Batallion

 

It's not that I'm not going to take Dominions, I'd just rather move up and get my storm bolters within 12" and let someone else do the objective holding.

 

At the end of the day I'm going to run a blob BSS because I want to, so I'll find a job for it to do. They're not really a high priority target, so more likely than not they'll live long enough to do something late game when their numbers matter, and if not, well they drew fire away from something more potent.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[taikishi]

Why take a Battalion? If you're using ITC rules, or going by the guidelines in the book, 2000 points is recommended max of 3 detachments -- which is the same CP as a single Battalion. You get so many more options than a single Battalion and your only tax is an extra HQ.

 

The only real reasons to take a Battalion are:

* you're limited to less than three detachments

* you want to take a Battalion plus another detachment (or two) for more CP

 

That said, in 2K points or under, I have a hard time seeing us filling out a Battalion + any other detachment that isn't a Super-Heavy or Super-Heavy Auxiliary

 

Also, if 24" isn't enough, one heavy bolter isn't going to do the job; that's what HB-Retributors and Exorcists are for.

[Servant of Dante]

I'm saying if 24" is enough there's no reason to pay the points for Dominions :) the HB is just a little something so the squad isn't doing absolutely nothing.

 

I take a Batallion because of my own concerns (fewer HQs mostly), plus I just like BSSs

[Beams]

Cheapest brigade:

Cannoness x 3 (135)

BSS x 6 (45 x 6, 270)

Retributors x 3 (135)

Dominions x 3 (150)

Dialogus x 3 (15x3, 45)

 

That's 735 pts.

Replace the dialogus with imagifiers to keep any potential (ORDER) bonus, and you've got 810 pts used and 1,190 pts left for upgrades or additional units.

 

Getting a brigade in 2000 pts is super easy.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Beams

[CaptainMarsh]

MSU Dominions with SBs may be solid comparisons, if not replacements, for a single BSS of comparable size. But if you're running Dominions as your battleline, then you're losing out on their great efficiency and use as as eliminators of hordes and eradicators of enemy armor. My experience on the tabletop tells me it is a losing strategy to lose out on what they can do that the BSS can't in order for them to do what the BSS can. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by CaptainMarsh

[taikishi]

 And when you start adding in transports, Penitent engines, Exorcists, equipment, Celestine...?

 

Celestine + two Geminae: 250

2 Exorcists: 320

HF Immos for the Dominions: 309

 

How are you spending your remaining 311 points? Definitely not on a Knight for a SH Auxiliary, you don't have the points for it.

 

Going back to the previous topic, the extra 3PPM for Vanguard and Storm Bolters is plenty of reasons to take SB-Minions over BSS. There are far more pros in those 3 points than there are cons. And, Dante, you very clearly:

 

 

 

I'm saying if you have an objective where 24 inch range isn't enough, why pay the extra points? Just add in a HB on a BSS and sit back.

[Beams]

You do you, but don't expect everyone else to do so as well.

[Eddie Orlock]

And when you start adding in transports, Penitent engines, Exorcists, equipment, Celestine...?

If the goal is brigade and you want these units you don't add them in, you swap them in.

 

Adjusted brigade:

Cannoness x 2 (90)

Cellie and friends (250)

BSS x 6 (45 x 6, 270)

Retributors (45)

Excorsits x 2 (320)

Dominions x 3 (150)

Imagifiers x 3 (120)

----

HF Immos for the Dominions x 3 (309)

 

That's 1554 pts.

 

Knight Errant with trinity honouring Thermal Cannon x 1 (434)

 

Under the bar with 12 points to spare for upgrades.

[taikishi]

MSU Dominions with SBs may be solid comparisons, if not replacements, for a single BSS of comparable size. But if you're running Dominions as your battleline, then you're losing out on their great efficiency and use as as eliminators of hordes and eradicators of enemy armor. My experience on the tabletop tells me it is a losing strategy to lose out on what they can do that the BSS can't in order for them to do what the BSS can. 

 

Outrider detachment permits 6 FA slots. 3 SB-Minions, other three slots on Melta/Flamer-Minions -- though HF rets are probably better than Flamer Dominions, especially in a Repressor, if a bit more expensive. And it's not like you can't just take two Outrider detachments or an Outrider and a Spearhead detachment. Also, I'd argue storm bolters are better anti-horde than flamers because of the random nature of flamers. Yeah, the average on 5 flamers is 17.5, I'd rather have the guaranteed 20 shots at the same range.

 

 

And while I can't take full credit for this...

 

Spearhead Detachment: 322 pts

Canoness w/ Eviscerator

3x 5 Retributors w/ 4 Heavy Bolters

 

Vanguard Detachment: 320

Tempestor Prime w/ Command Rod

Commisar w/ Bolt Pistol & Chainsword

2x Imagifier

Tempestus Command Squad w/ 4 Plasma Guns

35 Conscripts

 

Outrider Detachment: 910

Celestine & Friends

2x 5 Seraphim w/ 4 Inferno Pistols & Power Sword

2x 5 Dominions w/ 4 Meltaguns, Combi-plasma

2x Repressors

 

That still leaves 448 points to spend. 4 Dominion Squads in two Repressors is 420 points, leaving 28 points for upgrades or an extra few bodies like making the HB rets 6 models each for an ablative wound.

Edited July 18, 2017 by taikishi

[taikishi]

You do you, but don't expect everyone else to do so as well.

 

Doing me is not playing 8th and playing 2nd or 3rd =P I'm just illustrating why (atm) BSS aren't worth taking unless you're shooting for a Brigade and running pure Sisters.

 

Also, if I were playing I'd be running SM Bikes in place of the SB-Minions along with Lias Issodon and Grav or Melta Devastator Squads because Reasonable Marines <3

Edited July 18, 2017 by taikishi

[Jacinda]

That's still 6 CP short of a battalion, tho.

[Servant of Dante]

True, I guess I see the arguments for SB Dominion spam. You just set a couple squads to hold an abjective or whatever and shoot anything that gets close.

 

Regardless of efficiency, I run pure Sisters, to the point that I prefer not to even use Crusaders and whatnot (priests have been the only exception), and I really don't enjoy MSU, I'm not exactly sure why, but I don't enjoy playing if I don't have more substantial units. I'll proabably run 1 15 Sister BSS, but alongside that, maybe I'll try doing. Ore dominions :)

[taikishi]

You're thinking of a brigade; a battalion is only 3CP.

 

Edit: Also, gang, I don't disagree with "take what you want". It's your army, you need to have fun with it. It's just that, right now, everything a BSS does another Sisters unit does better except camp an objective and bubble wrap -- and there are units we can ally with that do those better if you're willing to take allies. Which, to be honest, sucks and is as much a fault of the morale changes as it is the fact you can take so many different detachments that require 0 troops.

 

What BSS probably need to make them more worthwhile are the ability to take 20 again, a more reliable way to mitigate morale than a Dialogus, and probably the ability to take one additional special weapon at 15 and 20 battle sisters.

Edited July 18, 2017 by taikishi

[Gen.Steiner]

My main issue with the "get more units!" argument is cost, in money.

 

Even eBay isn't as cheap as it was.

 

It doesn't help that all my vehicles are based on the Mk 1 Rhino chassis!

[taikishi]

Guess I'm glad I didn't play at a GW store and llive in an area where the group was okay with proxies as long as I was consistent, had a list, and told them up front "this unit has X/Y/Z". What I was able to snag was fairly cheap at the time (about half MSRP).

[CaptainMarsh]

You're thinking of a brigade; a battalion is only 3CP.

 

Edit: Also, gang, I don't disagree with "take what you want". It's your army, you need to have fun with it. It's just that, right now, everything a BSS does another Sisters unit does better except camp an objective and bubble wrap -- and there are units we can ally with that do those better if you're willing to take allies. Which, to be honest, sucks and is as much a fault of the morale changes as it is the fact you can take so many different detachments that require 0 troops.

 

What BSS probably need to make them more worthwhile are the ability to take 20 again, a more reliable way to mitigate morale than a Dialogus, and probably the ability to take one additional special weapon at 15 and 20 battle sisters.

What I would want for BSS: 20 models, additional heavy and special weapons, and a morale bonus at 10+ models.