Tactics and musings for 8th edition

[Gen.Steiner]

If Celestine is on her own, and within 1" of the enemy, she can't bring back a Super Twin. That's the only reason you'd want to Fall Back with the AoF - to ensure that at the start of your movement phase you can get one of your Super Twins back.

[radionausea]

Why can't she bring back a twin? The twin needs to be brought back within 2" of Celestine and not within an inch of an enemy. Unless she's completely surrounded there should be enough wriggle room to manage that.

[CaptainHelion]

Basically, that's the case, yeah. If she's surrounded. It doesn't take many models for a canny opponent to block a Resurrection Twin. I've done it several times against my friend's Necrons.

[ERJAK]

If Celestine is on her own, and within 1" of the enemy, she can't bring back a Super Twin. That's the only reason you'd want to Fall Back with the AoF - to ensure that at the start of your movement phase you can get one of your Super Twins back.

Even then you'll usually be able to kill enough things to free up space if you double attack.

[Gen.Steiner]

That is true. Usually. On the other hand if you want to be absolutely sure or you think Celestine's in a tight spot it may be advisable to Fall Back so she can go off heretic-hunting elsewhere later.

 

Personally I tend to use movement, fight again and recover wounds AoFs in that order on Celestine.

[CaptainHelion]

Depends entirely on what you're fighting. Celestine has 7 attacks, so if you double fight that's at most 14 dead. That still leaves 6 Poxwalkers, and your opponent gets to choose what they remove.

[Gen.Steiner]

And really you're looking at missing at least one attack per round statistically (fail on 1s, six attacks, should be five hits...) and at S7 anything above T3 is wounded on a 3+ at best, so attacking Spess Muhreens you statistically cause, what, 4 wounds a round? Something like that. A lot of Celestine's killing power is actually bound up with the Super Twins, I think, which are putting out another 6 attacks between them.

[A.T.]

A lot of Celestine's killing power is actually bound up with the Super Twins, I think, which are putting out another 6 attacks between them.

 

I find they don't contribute much to combat beyond soaking wounds. Mathhammer they average one single wound between them against regular space marines - that's not what i'm paying 100 points for.

[Gen.Steiner]

Mm, true, Celestine is definitely the best at killing MEQs; but against chaff units and T3 foes the Super Twins should not be discounted. Also dice are weird; in my last game the Super Twins were killing more Plague Marines than Celestine was.

[taikishi]

In case you haven't seen this, this is the Sisters list that won Hammer of Wrath a little over a week ago:
 

Adeptus Ministorum Outrider detachment: 

HQ: Saint Celestine with BFFs 

EL: Ministorum Priest 
EL: 9x Arco-flagellants 

FA: 5x Dominions with 4x meltaguns 
FA: 5x Dominions with 4x meltaguns 
FA: 5x Dominions with 4x meltaguns 
FA: 5x Dominions with 4x meltaguns 
FA: 9x Seraphims with 4x inferno pistols 

DT: Repressor with heavy-flamer and 2x stormbolter 
DT: Repressor with heavy-flamer and 2x stormbolter 
DT: Repressor with heavy-flamer and 2x stormbolter 
DT: Repressor with heavy-flamer and 2x stormbolter 
DT: Rhino with 2x stormbolter 

Astra Militarum Spearhead detachment: 
HQ: Cie Commander 

HS: Manticore 
HS: Manticore 
HS: Heavy Weapon Squad with 3x mortars 

DT: Taurox Prime with gatling and 2x hot-shots 
DT: Taurox Prime with gatling and 2x hot-shots

 

Per the player's comments, he went first every game except game 2. Player's comments on their list can be found here

Edited August 23, 2017 by taikishi

[Montford]

I have tried a Retributor Squad w/ 4 Multimeltas inside a Repressor, it becomes sort of a double gunned Immolator. It wasn't too bad, but I think I want the Retributors outside and near a Canoness and/ or an Imagifier.

 

Next game I am going to try a squad of 6 Acolytes, all with plasma guns, inside the Repressor. The idea is that the Repressor can get them inside rapid fire range whilst still giving them protection.

[Servant of Dante]

I mean, I'd call that an Imperium list, not a Sisters list

 

That's quite a lot of Dom span regardless :D

Edited August 23, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[Atrus]

Its lists like that that will earn our only good units a big nerf come codex time

[Matt_149]

Luckily repressors aren't in our codex and aren't produced by foreword anymore so they could just be dropped. Hopefully that will mean they leave the immo alone!

[ERJAK]

Luckily repressors aren't in our codex and aren't produced by foreword anymore so they could just be dropped. Hopefully that will mean they leave the immo alone!

Yeah, the repressor has the advantage of having it's rules written by Forgeworld, but once someone who actually knows what they're doing phones over there and lets them know that allowing the unit inside to shoot with no penalty no matter what condition the vehicle itself is in (Locked in combat, retreated from combat, advanced this turn, 1 wound left, etc) then they'll fix it and we'll go back to being just Really, really good rather than 'on the chopping block'.

[taikishi]

I mean, I'd call that an Imperium list, not a Sisters list

 

That's quite a lot of Dom span regardless

 

Per ITC rules, it's a Sisters list because the largest detachment and majority of his points are composed entirely of units from the Adeptus Ministorum/Sisters of Battle section of the Index. It's not like he brought half of his army as Guard, either. It's 5 units, four of which are vehicles and the other two are more "tax" than anything else.

 

As for why the army isn't entirely Sisters?"

 

 

 

besides Saint Celestine, dominions, seraphims and our transports there are no other interesting units.

 

If he's ignoring the Ministorum side (Penitents, Arco-flagellents) when he says there are no other interesting units he's not wrong, and that's with Ob Sec FAQ'd into the ITC rules for Troops choices.

[Beams]

That's ignoring Repentia, Exorcists, Imagifiers, Canonni, the stuff that I find interesting.

[Servant of Dante]

I mean it sounds like he finds winning interesting rather than Sisters :P which is fine. What's interesting is subjective, so he's not wrong, but he's not right either.

 

But there are plenty of interesting units in the codex imo, that maybe aren't quite as good. I mean, a Sisters list that uses IG allies isn't interesting to me. Sure by ITC rules it's a Sisters list, but the army is constructed using the Imperium keyword, not the Adeptus Ministorum keyword. That's the requirement to really be a Sisters lost in my mind, but that's really just my opinion. There's nothing wrong with a list like this, I was just disappointed it's not what I would call a Sisters list. Thanks for sharing though, it's nice to see us in tournament winning armies at all :D

Edited August 23, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[taikishi]

It's a tournament, the point is to win ;) Or as Dale Earnhardt once said "second place is just the first loser." Preferably without being an ass but some people don't understand competitive <> being an asshat.

 

Play fluffy lists in local environments/meta. Play to win at ITCs, GTs, GenCon, etc.

[Beams]

I find it interesting g that he went with Tauroxes. I know they are supposedly "efficient" but in my Meta they have struggled to achieve anything.

 

I also feel like he lacks flaners, especially since Orks and Nids are supposed to be a huge threat.

[sedibear]

I find it interesting g that he went with Tauroxes. I know they are supposedly "efficient" but in my Meta they have struggled to achieve anything.

 

I also feel like he lacks flaners, especially since Orks and Nids are supposed to be a huge threat.

 

Arco flagellants solve the problems that flamers wish they did, according to him.

 

They can delete an entire conscript block in one charge.

[Servant of Dante]

All I said was there's a difference between "good" and "interesting" units can be interesting without being good :P

 

Edit: which is why I said there's a difference between being interested in Sisters as a while and being interested in winning. And I never called anyone anything unpleasant, whatever a person likes to do with 40k is fine.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[sedibear]

My takeaway from his interview is he essentially poured melta on the biggest targets and used the Seraphim and Celestine to snipe characters w charges.

 

The vehicles could assault and the passengers shot out. Super good. If that gets faqd or errata'd we can still do it but the passengers will have to get out of the vehicle.

[taikishi]

Orks/Bugs swarm, because you can Vanguard to within 9" of them, then move on your turn:

 

40 storm bolter shots + 4d6  heavy flamer shots + 6 heavy bolter shots (Manticores) + 40 gatling shots + 16 hot-shot volley gun shots + 4d6 Storm Eagle shots that don't need LoS + 3d6 Mortar Shots that don't need LoS and can be ordered to re-roll either 1s to hit or 1s to wound.

 

Assuming targets are Orks you can kill ~43 Orks a turn just from your opening salvo with either re-roll 1s order on the mortar team.

 

40 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 5/6 + 14 * 2/3 + 6 * 1/2 * 2/3 + 40 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 5/6 + 16 * 1/2 * 1/2 + 14 * 1/2 * 5/6 + 10.5 * (1/2 + 1/6 * 1/2) * 1/2 * 5/6

 

Add in 16 bolt pistols from the Seraphim and Geminae, Celestine's heavy flamer, 4 bolt guns from the Dominion Superiors and 18 meltagun/inferno pistol shots (assuming you start the Seraphim on the board and use your AoF on them to get them in range) and now you're killing 62 Orks. Granted, your 18 melta-shots are going to have better targets than Boyz but if you kill enough from a couple of squads suddenly those Boyz aren't Ld 30 anymore because they and their nearby squads have shrunk in size. Enough so that hopefully they'll lose even more from failed Morale.

Edited August 23, 2017 by taikishi

[Eddie Orlock]

What I got out of reading his commentaries is that this is essentially neo-leafblower in a way. It uses powerful early game movement tricks to deliver devastating short ranged weaponry at the start of the game and succeeds by alpha-striking the top priority units off the table before they can move.

 

His guard appear there in part due to a limit in the number of dominion slots in the Vanguard detachment with only Cele as HQ. And partially because of his comments about their firepower density. Which supports back into the whole 'alpha-strike' protocol. He openly admits that one of the most important die rolls of his tourney games is the one to go first.