Tactics and musings for 8th edition

[A.T.]

In many ways he's more useful for Sisters out of cover to minimise the increased losses the lack of additional cover save brings, but I figured demonstrating just how damn hard it is to force a Morale check with him plus cover showed the value of that +1 Ld best.

 

For the same points Greyfax pushes the sisters directly to Ld10, even if they have lost their superiors. You'd need to be getting value out of the warhymns - leading big blobs of cultists, repentia, arcos, or crusaders to even consider him competitively IMO.

[Drider]

True but guard don't exactly need that as a Commissar lets any unit within 6" of him use his Ld (8) and limits battle shock damage to 1 model so they don't exactly need priests to reduce battle shock damage.

 

But this isn't about Guard.

[Gothical]

True but guard don't exactly need that as a Commissar lets any unit within 6" of him use his Ld (8) and limits battle shock damage to 1 model so they don't exactly need priests to reduce battle shock damage.

 

But this isn't about Guard.

 

Indeed, but Commissars cost elite slots and you may not want to spend your points/slots on them in a mixed force, as you will mainly be taking the Guard for either stalling or long-range fire to support your Sisters, and Jacobus affects the Sisters too unlike the dude in the trench-coat.

[Servant of Dante]

Just finished playing a game against myself, Sisters vs BA. Apparently I don't know how to build a good BA list, because the Sisters practically tabled them in 3 turns, with only moderate casualties. I was using the list I posted a couple days ago. The split fire and multi-charge mechanics are a whole lot of fun :D

 

I agree that Sisters are in a pretty good place right now. Flamer immos are scary :P Though Seraphim still are weaker than they should be in cc. I shall be buffing them a bit when I do my 8E homebrew codex (have to get started on that . . . )

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334456-first-8e-list-pure-sisters-of-course/

[Drider]

I found the same thing with seraphim in a 1000 point test game vs tau.

 

I think they've got 2 uses:
1) A big squad to meatshield for big C.

2) Sitting in reserves to come in and grab objectives from turn 3 on. 

 

The can be used as another special weapons platform if dominions in an immo are to expensive but i feel they lose out in a direct comparison.

[Gothical]

 

 

 

I agree that Sisters are in a pretty good place right now. Flamer immos are scary  Though Seraphim still are weaker than they should be in cc. I shall be buffing them a bit when I do my 8E homebrew codex (have to get started on that . . . )

 

Seraphim are relatively dire in CC, even with the Pistol change, unless they are in CC with some sort of (non-melee) vehicle and carry 4 Inferno Pistols. They can make use of The Passion act of faith to get 2 attacks and 2 shots off within a single game turn to clear them off to fulfil their other roles, or you can go the route of Divine Guidance, Fall Back, shoot. There are always plenty of outlier cases, especially against opponents that gain abilities on the charge, where charging in is the better option, but as a standard rule they are not an assault unit.

 

I found the same thing with seraphim in a 1000 point test game vs tau.

 

I think they've got 2 uses:
1) A big squad to meatshield for big C.

2) Sitting in reserves to come in and grab objectives from turn 3 on. 

 

The can be used as another special weapons platform if dominions in an immo are to expensive but i feel they lose out in a direct comparison.

 

3) Swarming vehicles to both tie them up in CC (stopping most apart from former Super-Heavies from shooting) and to prevent them from disembarking passengers. The latter can be very powerful if someone has invested in a "death star" combo.

[Noeh]

I really need to convert up a whole bunch more seraphim. I've always liked the concept of them and they did great work in 7th. They're only better in 8th since deepstriking isn't a risk.

[Servant of Dante]

I used mine to tie up an unsupported unit of Devestators (well, the plasma pistol Vanguard Veterans came to support them, shot 6 of the seraphim, then got shot to death by the remaining 4 Seraphim, who then tied down the Devestators).

[Commisarp]

You said 'musings' and this has turned into a bit of a formless ramble.

I'm struggling with what I see as a tension inside of list building with sisters of battle.

On the one hand, transports seem like a pain in the ass now; because of how the faith mechanics work "at the start of the movement phase" whereas disembarking is at the end of the movement phase, so with a mostly mech list you aren't doing anything with faith until turn three. (Also, transports are expensive and not taking them frees up space for more dudes)

However Flamethrowers. 

Flamers are really good in this edition, and if you take flamers in your squads, they need transports if they want to get in range with them.

So I start thinking about lists which have at their core something like: 3 squads of battle sisters with flamers and hvy flamers in Rhinos, and then a Pseudo command squad with 5 Celestians, Cannoness, Immagnifier, Hospitler, Preist (Diagolus?) Surge forward your four transports with the 'command squad' in the middle and try and get dismounted and set up turn three. 

I'm just uncomfortable with a plan that takes until the start of turn three to get to work.

You can take the view that Immolators are better than Rhinos, and take 5 girl squads in Immolators, and I see that being the received wisdom around here - but you need bodies to hold objectives. I think we are missing a piece of the puzzle when thinking about Mech, which is the Repressor. FW Rules have not leaked (unless you know something I don't) That might end up being the best of both worlds, if not prohibitively expensive. 

On the subject of Forge World, 'our' Flyers (The Arvus and the Avenger) are in the Guard index, not the marine one. It's even odds if they will even have Adepta Sororitas Keywords. Though if our girls can ride in an Arvus Lighter, that will be interesting - in 8th a Deep Striking transport flyer is essentially a Drop Pod. Could sisters use a drop pod? Potential Turn one Repentia Charge?

I don't know how worried to be about keywords. As of right now we lose nothing by including random imperial units Including a unit of religious rabble (Conscripts) might be a fun and useful inclusion, given we lack a cheap light infantry sort of troops choice; However I worry that the eventual Codex might hit us with some kinds of penalty.

[Noeh]

I'm actually planning to take two immolators as "transports" but not put girls inside them. Basically a gunline with supporting fire idea. I have enough long range cover fire and fast moving units to act as distractions otherwise. It should allow the devastating new immolation flamers to get into range and roast away while the other sisters keep hold of objectives and prevent the enemy from getting in close.
I'm thinking it might be nice to actually use fortifications this time around too. I'd have to actually look over the rules on them now though. Maybe a defense line or a bunker and some weapon batteries. Make a fancy stronghold since sisters are able to be a gunline army from the looks of things.

[ERJAK]

You said 'musings' and this has turned into a bit of a formless ramble.

 

I'm struggling with what I see as a tension inside of list building with sisters of battle.

 

On the one hand, transports seem like a pain in the ass now; because of how the faith mechanics work "at the start of the movement phase" whereas disembarking is at the end of the movement phase, so with a mostly mech list you aren't doing anything with faith until turn three.

 

This is not correct. AoF happens at the start of the turn, before the movement phase and disembark happens whenever you want just before the vehicle moves.

 

As for the thing about transports, don't really agree. First of all, operating under the assumption that AoFs won't be usable on vehicles, they honestly won't really be worth building a strategy around for the most part.

 

Giving downfield units like dominions or BSS AoF is something you do if they leave you an opening, not something you really want to be pushing for. Keep the imagifiers pocketing Retributors or using them as a launch platform for seraphim, 1-2 should be more than enough in most builds.

 

I personally am favoring straight up immo spam lists, you can belch out a truly incredible amount of flame and melta in an immo-spam brigade list(I like Celestine, Greyfax, and a Canoness, 2 imagifiers,hospitaller, 3 5s of seraphim 6 units of BS in Immos with M/M or HF/F as approps and fill in with retributors.You'll be tight on points but that's a reasonable amount of Target saturation, screening, long range shooting and Celestine and Seraphim for garnish.

[Drider]

I concur with the idea of immo spam with immolation flamers. I think I'll be doing it a little bit differently though; Big C and a unit of 10 seraphim and 3 or 4 units of dominions in immolators, going for the turn 1 hammer blow. i'm thinking a few penitent engines behind as a follow up. if they don't take care of the seraphim and get big C, she's going to get them. If they don't take care of the doms/immos then their going to get them. If they're still trying to take care of the rush then the penitents are going to get them. 

[Noeh]

I wonder if seraphim with inferno pistols might end up better than doms with meltas this edition. Right from the start you can catapult seraphim across the board, or alternatively deepstrike them where they need to be. After that they do have 4 meltas in hand (not as great, but still metlas). Plus even having 10 seraphim with 2 being twins inferno cost half of what 5 doms with combi-melta, 4 meltas, and a melta immolator costs. You could just include two squads of fast moving sisters with meltas and fly that have enough buffer to survive,the ability to be exactly where they need to be, and to handle themselves in at least one round of close combat. 

[Drider]

I think it's going to be very meta dependent if people start bringing a lot of anti armour then seraphim might get their place that way as a replacement for dominions. But other than that, they're infantry and so far I've found that infantry are very squishy in this edition. The main reason i think Doms are better is they get the Immos into effective range faster and I've found that vehicles have a bit of staying power now. Even if the immo has 1 wound left it's doesn't care because flamers still auto hit.

[Noeh]

I feel like the trade off is going to be more dependent on whether vehicles can use acts of faith or not. If they can, doms are amazing for their job. If they can't, two groups of 5 seraphim will be able to jump in and dominate for well under the same cost. Heck even two squads of 10 barely cost more than the 5 doms in a twin link mm immolator.

[Drider]

So to expand upon a previous post. I put this list together to express it a little better and see if it works.

Spearhead Detachment

Big C, Little Gs
Penitent Engines, 3
Retributors, 5, 4 Heavy Bolters

Retributors, 5, 4 Heavy Bolters

 

Vangaurd Detachment

Cannoness, Combi-Plasma
Seraphim, 10, 4 Hand flamers
Dominions, 5, 4 Melta
Immolator, Immolation Flamer
Dominions, 5, 4 Melta
Immolator, Immolation Flamer

Dominions, 5, 4 Melta
Immolator, Immolation Flamer

 

Battalion Detachment

Cannoness, Combi-Plasma
Cannoness, Combi-Plasma
BSS, 5, Heavy Bolter
BSS, 5, Heavy Bolter
BSS, 5, Heavy Bolter
Imagifier

 

8 Command Points and 1989 points.

 

The game plan:

Doms in Immos vanguard move, disembark, move again.

Big C and Seraphim double move up.

Penitents move and advance.

Shoot all the things.

Big C and Seraphim get stuck into combat.

Next turn the penitents move and charge, if nothing is in charge range then they advance.

[Servant of Dante]

That looks like one nasty list :D

 

At least till the codices start coming out and we inevitably don't get one, perhaps Sisters could place in the competitive scene? That would certainly be something :P

[Noeh]

That does look nasty...also..BSS with heavy bolters was not something I considered until now.

[Drider]

It's an old school move for paying troop tax on double CAD. it was 70 points a unit but it's now 55 points a unit, so if you want grab command points from the battalion detachment. It's only 255 points with bare bones Cannoness or 285 if you kit them up with combi-plasma, which why wouldn't you. 

[Beams]

So... Just played two games vs. guard.

 

Things learned:

•Seraphim are great, but don't charge guard with them. The "get back in the fight" order is brutal.

•Penitent Engines are pretty good, but bad rolls on the second pile in and lucky 6+'s can hurt. Run more than one.

•Storm bolters are amazing. Like, seriously. It's a lot of firepower for a little points.

•Cannoness are great!

•Our action economy is wonderful, and can help out us in really good positions.

•I can't roll to save my life. Failed 2 rerolled 2+ acts of faith, and all my 4+ acts of faith.

 

!!!Cover is super important!!!

Guard was getting 3+ saves due to cover plus a psyker, and I dropped seraphim into cover for a 2+, and repeatedly flamed a conscript squad.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Beams

[sedibear]

Are we sure that we can't make Akimbo canoness loadouts anymore?

 

Can't you replace both the bolt pistol and the chainsword with two pistols? It specifies that you can swap the bolt pistol with a boltgun, and the chainsword with a melee weapon, and then goes to say that you can replace either the pistol or the chainsword with pistols or ranged weapons.

 

Can't i just replace both with pistols, then?

[Atrus]

You can equip with bolt pistol and plasma pistol ;)

 

That's some epically bad rolling dude.

[sedibear]

I was thinking replace bolt pistol with inferno pistol and replace chainsword with inferno pistol so i dont have to make a new canoness :P

 

we're having an 8th ed party on Sunday. Excited.

[Noeh]

They're celebrating 8th at my local store by playing 7th edition kill team and having pizza. It's weird lol.

I like the idea of dual wielding sisters. I kinda hope they bring over the dual pistol sisters of silence rules when that upgrade kit comes out.

[Commander Dawnstar]

I was thinking replace bolt pistol with inferno pistol and replace chainsword with inferno pistol so i dont have to make a new canoness

 

I wish! I'm in exactly the same boat on that.