Tactics and musings for 8th edition

[Montford]

Give at least one Seraphim per Squad inferno pistols. Works great on vehicles, walkers, heavy infantry such as Terminators (especially if they are in a minimum size squad) and characters. Use them before charging, and then again in melee! And always have 10 models per squad.

[Atrus]

It would be nice to give canonness decent dual pistol loadout, unfortunately she's limited to keeping her bolt pistol and swapping the chainsword for a plasma or inferno pistol. Shame really.

 

Give at least one Seraphim per Squad inferno pistols. Works great on vehicles, walkers, heavy infantry such as Terminators (especially if they are in a minimum size squad) and characters. Use them before charging, and then again in melee! And always have 10 models per squad.

Pistols can only be used in shooting phase. Yes they can be used while in combat- but again, onlyin the shooting phase. Which leaves us with s3 t3 models having to survive 1-2 rounds of combat. Not a comfortable place to be. It would be nice if seraphim had a special rule that they use their pistol profiles in cc in place of their stat line. Alas they do not :(

But yes, always 10 in a squad. I like the versatility of one of each pistol in a squad.

[AlexAbroad]

On the subject of weapons load outs, what are people equipping their Superiors with? 

 

My three BSS squads were each led by either the Boltgun/Power Sword or the Combi-weapon/Power Maul models, which I'm a bit sad are now invalid load outs.

 

Are people counting the boltguns as boltpistols or ignoring the power weapons for the time being?

 

Also, plasma pistols seem to be a safer option now. In 7th I think the first and only casualties of my few models with Plasma pistols (Seraphim Superior, Dominion Superior, and Priest) were invariably the firers.

[Gothical]

 

Pistols can only be used in shooting phase. Yes they can be used while in combat- but again, onlyin the shooting phase. Which leaves us with s3 t3 models having to survive 1-2 rounds of combat. Not a comfortable place to be. It would be nice if seraphim had a special rule that they use their pistol profiles in cc in place of their stat line. Alas they do not

But yes, always 10 in a squad. I like the versatility of one of each pistol in a squad.

 

 

Although you still have to survive the 2 rounds of melee combat (in your initial turn and your opponents turn), you can always use Divine Guidance to fire the Pistols whilst engaged at the start of the turn, and again in the shooting phase. When this is stacked with Charging units going first (and being able to shoot before the charge) and a re-rollable Shield of Faith they do stand a chance of surviving those two rounds (especially as Power Fist Terminators will be hitting on 4s). If you have Celestine nearby then they can definitely stick around with the re-rollable 5++. It is a lot of expense invested on a non-melee unit though.

 

I am considering 2 sets of Inferno Pistols and a Plasma Pistol on the Superior, though I do like the infantry-killing power of 4 Hand Flamers. Given how cheap Power Weapons are it almost seems worth giving the Superior one in case you do end up stuck in melee. Which one to take is another question, all are pretty good now (albeit with a drawback each).

[Gothical]

On the subject of weapons load outs, what are people equipping their Superiors with? 

 

My three BSS squads were each led by either the Boltgun/Power Sword or the Combi-weapon/Power Maul models, which I'm a bit sad are now invalid load outs.

 

Are people counting the boltguns as boltpistols or ignoring the power weapons for the time being?

 

Also, plasma pistols seem to be a safer option now. In 7th I think the first and only casualties of my few models with Plasma pistols (Seraphim Superior, Dominion Superior, and Priest) were invariably the firers.

 

For me it depends on the squad.

 

If it is a small unit to stay back and provide fire-support and hold objectives I'll give the Superior a Storm Bolter (combined with Storm Bolter and Heavy Bolter in the squad).

 

If it is a large unit to push up the board I'll give the Superior a Combi-Flamer (combined with 2 Flamers in the squad).

 

If it is Dominions or Retributors that are highly specialised I'll give the Superior a Combi-Weapon that best matches the squad's set-up, though here I am considering some sort of Pistol plus Power Weapon given the incentive to lock these units up in CC - a well-timed Counter-Attack Stratagem could be enough to shift the tide with the extra oomph a PW brings and also applies to The Passion Act of Faith, to clear the squad off and allow it to shoot later in your turn.

 

It is the standard 10 BSS in Rhino type of squad that I am struggling with the most. I know I want a Heavy Flamer, probably a Meltagun, and to keep the squad flexible. As such I'm torn between a Pistol & Melee loadout (most likely counting all the metal Bolter+PW Superiors as Bolt Pistols instead) or perhaps Condemnor Boltgun and Inferno Pistol or something strange like that (fun to model and broad tactical options).

 

I mentioned in my last post in this thread I am considering the Plasma Pistol and Power Weapon load-out on the Seraphim Superior.

 

Still experimenting with Celestians. They're mostly wound-catchers for the Canoness and my thoughts are to target them with Spirit of the Martyr and Hospitallers, so the ability to revive the Superior makes me think that going the expensive route of Inferno Pistol plus Power Weapon might be worth considering.

 

I keep going back and forth on whether Plasma Pistol and Chainsword is a good idea or not - pretty solid gun and gaining an additional attack in melee seem useful (especially for only 7 points), but S3 AP- melee attacks are a bit pants and I can't help but wonder if Bolt Pistol and Power Maul is better (4 points!)

[Beams]

I've done Dominion squads with Max storm bolters (and some regular gun girls) and I really like it. So the superior there had a storm bolter.

 

Otherwise, I've found combi-flamer to be really really good.

 

Power swords are pretty useful.

 

Power mauls seem like they'd be really good, but I don't have any models with them.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Beams

[ERJAK]

On the subject of weapons load outs, what are people equipping their Superiors with?

 

My three BSS squads were each led by either the Boltgun/Power Sword or the Combi-weapon/Power Maul models, which I'm a bit sad are now invalid load outs.

 

Are people counting the boltguns as boltpistols or ignoring the power weapons for the time being?

 

Also, plasma pistols seem to be a safer option now. In 7th I think the first and only casualties of my few models with Plasma pistols (Seraphim Superior, Dominion Superior, and Priest) were invariably the firers.

Pistols are a decent option, combi-weapons are pretty sweet still, Condemnor bolguns are fantastic for 1 point if you're at like 1997. I would probably still pass on powerweapons.

[Beams]

I wouldn't auto-pass on power weapons.

 

Sure, you plan on avoiding comvat, but your celetian and seraphim superiors are hitting on 3's, your basic superior on 4's, and your canonness on 2's.

 

So, you shoot the heck out of a squad, there's 1-2 guys left standing, if your got a power weapon you charge in to finish them off. Your basically girls will do a little damage, but your superior with a maul or axe should chop right through them.

 

I mean, we only pay 4-5 pts for them, so it's not like they can't make up their point cost or more easily. (1 killed space Marines is 3x the cost)

 

So, depending on whether your playing gunline (Go go Stormbolters!) Or in-your-face kinda depends on whether it'll be worth it. Will your sisters see melee combat (whether you want them to or not?) Maybe grab a power weapon.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Beams

[taikishi]

Actually, ignoring invulnerable saves....

In the hands of a canoness, the power axe is generally the better weapon as it outperforms the power sword and the power maul except at two intervals: T5 and T8.


* vs T3: the axe excels due to its higher save modifier over the maul and it's better chance to wound vs the sword.  The maul falls behind the power sword against anything with a 4+ save or better such as Scions or Battle Sisters.

* vs T4: the maul is slightly better against light armored targets like Scout Marines but as soon as you hit MEQ the power axe pulls even, then takes the lead against TEQ.

* vs T5: the maul is better against anything with a 5+ or worse (do these exist at T5?). At 4+ the power sword pulls even, then takes the lead against Primaris marines, bikes, or anything with a 2+

* vs T6 and 7: the axe is ahead of its brothers in all instances due to the sword needing 6s to wound and the maul having a lower save modifier.

* vs T8: the maul pulls ahead due to its higher chance to wound, though oddly the power maul and the power sword have the same chance of inflicting wounds against targets with a 2+ save. The axe, otoh, is always behind the sword here.



So I guess the real solution is:
T5: power swords
T8: mauls
T3, 4, 6 or 7: Depends on what you're hunting, but usually the axe wins out here.

Invulnerable saves: the maul against T4, 5 and 8. The axe or maul against T3, 6 or 7

 

I'll provide math later -- this took a lot longer than I thought it would to verify I had no errors. I'll also math out superiors later, and will include eviscerators in the math (ignoring their multiple wounds/swing, which you can find out yourself by doubling what I list).

Edited June 12, 2017 by taikishi

[Beams]

I mean, my thought is as long as the difference isn't huge, more models have power swords than anything, so you don't have to cut up your expensive metal models. Plus, swords are cool?

 

 

Edit: also, Scions are predicted to be great this edition, so they'll be prevelant?

Edited June 12, 2017 by Beams

[Gen.Steiner]

What's the difference between a power sword on a Canoness and an Eviscerator (which is what mine carries)?

In terms of power weapons, my Sister Superiors have a mix of swords and mauls, but no axes (no models have them).

[A.T.]

What's the difference between a power sword on a Canoness and an Eviscerator

 

Eviscerator is two to four times as effective against most targets, though also more than five times the cost.

 

A canoness with a power sword will struggle to make an impact against a lone primaris marine, even assuming she can reroll her own to hit rolls of 1.

[Atrus]

Man, I must have been sleeping when I read Celestines entry. Only just now realised that she doesnt auto pass on her wounds to her geminae anymore. Also the sneaksy tricksy trick of using spirit of the martyr or a hospitaller to sneakily bring her back wont work.

 

Man, so much for recklessly throwing her downfield. Going to have to think about the placement of her bodyguard in relation to enemy units or shes going to get picked off pretty easy.

[Noeh]

Celestine still technically passes off all those wounds unless she's the closest model or targeted by snipers. You can't target her until the mooks around her are dead otherwise.

[A.T.]

Man, I must have been sleeping when I read Celestines entry. Only just now realised that she doesnt auto pass on her wounds to her geminae anymore.

 

She and her gemini are just a single unit though - you can allocate any attack to the gemini and the whole group cannot be attacked unless they are the closest unit.

[Sister Alessia]

Hey all! So my Sisters had their first game of 8th yesterday. I'll start off by saying how much I like the core rules and how much quicker and smoother the game ran. We only played 500 points, but my opponent had plenty of models in his Guard army.

 

I had hoped my flamers would deal with his infantry, but boy was I wrong. Flamers didn't manage a single kill all game. Immo Flamer killed 1 guardsman a turn :( Luckily my basic Bolter Sisters kicked alot of ass, but he had so many bodies, it was a real struggle.

 

My other problem was taking down his Taurox* transports. I was lacking in enough anti-tank to deal with them. That I can ammend however, its just how to deal with hordes. Any suggestions? Still, I managed a draw and had lots of fun. My fav unit was my Cannoness. By turn 3 her Eviserator had killed: 3 heavy bolter teams, a command squad, various officers, and crippled a Taurox. :) As soon as I lost a battle sister, she went berserk. But thats The Order of our Martyred Lady for you. ;)

[Beams]

Storm bolters.

 

I'm not joking.

 

I played against guard and had quite a few bad rolls on my flamers. Sure they average 3.5 hits, but there's a dangerous curve there.

 

Plus, you have to get pretty close with a flamers. By the time they get that close with stormbolters, your firing 4 shots with a canonness retooling the ones. And youve been firing long range pot shots at them for the rest of the game. Plus - they have the same damage profile as a flamers and are sifnificantly cheaper.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Beams

[Noeh]

I kinda wonder about a group of 10 BSS with a storm bolter, heavy bolter and storm bolter on the Superior.

[Beams]

I was running dominions with Max stormbolters and than the 5 extra girls for a bit more punch. (And ablative wounds)

 

They did really, really well against guard, and we're the only thing that hurt the Bullgryns with a 2+ (He rolled really well against my Penitent engine)

[Atrus]

 

Man, I must have been sleeping when I read Celestines entry. Only just now realised that she doesnt auto pass on her wounds to her geminae anymore.

 

 

She and her gemini are just a single unit though - you can allocate any attack to the gemini and the whole group cannot be attacked unless they are the closest unit.

Doh, of course. Forgot about that.

 

Ive only had the one game thus far and rolled a 6 for the amoint of hits for my heavy flamer that took down one or two marines. That sucks to hear about your flamers being unreliable Sister Alessia.

As pointed out above, that stat line for flamer and storm bolter is pretty much the same. Im thinling storm bolters may be winning out over standard flamers for their reliability of getting 4 shots off at 12" away. I'm glad to hear people are having good results with storm bolters, good to see them having a use again...now i regret brutalising a couple recently to make heavy bolter girls.

I suppose the trafe off being that flamers do have the auto hit factor and stormies still have to roll to hit. Each has its pros and cons...wth?! Actual variety and choice to put againt each other? This doesnt sound like the geedub ive come to be so cynical about.

 

Im thinking of keeping heavy flamer in my BSS squads but maybe dropping the flamer for a storm bolter. I tend to be a bit aggressive in my play style so loading up on heavy bolters and sitting back doesnt sit well with me- my mind set being that heavy bolters and other ramged support sut back field...never considered throwing heavy bolter teams into a mid or front line role...dayum...going to need to play a lot of games to find my groove.

 

Hmm...storm bolter dominion squad in immo with twin heavy bolters and storm bolter.....or 2 storm bolter dominion squads in rhino with 2 storm bolters.

Feth. Too much choice.

[Servant of Dante]

I want to use the detachment that allows 6 FA choices, and get 6 Dominion squads all with 5 storm bolters (4+1 on the superior) and put 2 squads in each of 3 rhinos. It's 13 points a model. And that's 40 bolter shots from each rhino within 12", and the 30 Dominions with Storm Bolters are only 390 points all together :D

 

The only problem is that I only own 2 storm bolters :P Time to proxy, I suppose!

Edited June 13, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[Gen.Steiner]

At least storm bolters are reasonably easy to convert, I guess? :P

 

I am vindicated in my choice (some years ago) of Eviscerator as a weapon! :D

[micahwc]

I can't remember if I've posted this here but I am using my dominions as FA slots for my guard brigade detachment. Immolation flamers can reliably get turn one heretic BBQs off, and turn two the 4 combi-flamers jump out. Since they have guard support there are a lot of models on my side of the table to augment this.

 

If the enemy focuses on my Immolators they are not focusing on my exorcists. It's a win-win for me. They can try to kill the 3 immolators at their door step, in which case less things are firing at my exorcists; or they can focus on the exorcists and in which case I have three squads of dominions about to burn everything.

 

Immolators take an average of like 7-8 melta shots to kill at BS4+, so they are durable enough to generally last the first turn unless the enemy puts a lot of focus on them.

 

In a 2,000 point Imperium list I can take 3 immolators, 2 exorcists, and 2 taurox primes easily, which is a lot of armor saturation; and the guard can fit a lot of bodies in the remaining points.

[Sister Alessia]

Thanks Beams, I will certainly try your storm bolter idea :) Maybe I just got unlucky with my Immolation Flamer, so I'll give that another run. I'll be playing my friend Kate's Orks soon, eek. I did get one lucky overwatch where my meltaguns both hit, that was fun :) Also, cover made my Sisters nigh invincible. I think in general I was having a bad luck day. I only got my 2+ faith roll for one turn. Lots and lots of fun though 

[taikishi]

Here's the initial data on melee weapon choices, ignoring invulnerable saves:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HnXYfQ5IYq6MZFIe3hD1ISOY1KAaglqM-y9Za0kwldY/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

For a canoness, the eviscerator is the best weapon across the board against models without an invulnerable or FNP save, but may not be worth the increased cost over the other weapons unless you want her hunting tanks, carnifexes, etc.

 

As for the three power weapons:

 

* the maul's strengths are T8 models or lightly armored targets in the T2-5 range. Once the save hits 4+ base, the maul starts to drop off against the other two weapons on any toughness lower than 8.

* the sword is most likely to inflict unsaved wounds against anything in the 2-5 range, but struggles to keep up over its brethren against T6+ targets

* the axe generally is more likely to inflict unsaved wounds on a per-attack basis and has a higher average number of unsaved wounds in a single Fight phase across all toughness ranges except T5, where the power sword pulls ahead, and against T8 where the maul has the advantage due to its higher strength.

 

So it really depends on what you want your canoness to do. As a generalist, you can't go wrong with the axe or sword as long as you don't run into fights against T6+ models.

 

Note: I intentionally left off the chainsword because it's junk on both the canoness and the superior. It's a decent low toughness swarm killer because of the extra attack and that's about it
 

Edit 1: Data updated to include Sister Superiors. Out of idle curiosity, I'm also now contemplating including a section for how each weapon pairs up when considering its point cost as well as doing a section for base S4 models using the same to-hit chances (35/36 for canoness, 1/2 for superior, 7/12 for superior near a canoness).

Edited June 13, 2017 by taikishi