Tactics and musings for 8th edition

[Servant of Dante]

some people don't like to think critically about what the rules actually say, and just superimpose what they think they should say. :P

 

Not that house rules are bad or anything, just that if you agree to play by pure RAW, you first have to agree what the RAW says :D

 

In this case, I think people are using logic based on how AoFs worked in previous editions. I agree it's a really weird interaction, and I'm not sure how I'll play it. It'll probably depend on what my opponent thinks about it, but imo the RAW is pretty dang clear - you only have to have the AoF rule to use the base AoF opportunity. 

[Sister Alessia]

Thanks for the report Sir Gaea and congrats on what sounded like a very bloody victory :) I think its a great rule set, if a bit ambiguous in places. Once its had a faq, I'm sure it will be the cats pajamas :)

 

I'm the same with flamers Beams. I played them for 3 games to no avail. I've just swapped all mine for storm bolters, per your advice. Guaranteed 4 shots, cheaper and with re-rolling 1's thanks to Canoness, seems much better for me. I'm only playing 500 points, maybe they are better when you have enough points to really spam them?

 

The only other unit I've also found lackluster is my heavy bolter Retributor squad. I'm thinking of swapping them out for Seraphim next match, just to see.

[Ficinus]

Or people are thinking critically about what the rule actually says and construing the meaning of the sentences differently.  They're assuming, based on the way language works, that the restrictions of the third sentence in the Act of Faith rule are additional restrictions placed upon the restrictions that already exist in the second sentence about what units are allowed to use an Act of Faith.  They're reading the rules holistically rather than reading each sentence as though the sentences before have no bearing on what's going on.  I would also like to point at that reading two sentences in the same paragraph as interacting is not looking for RAI, but rather looking at RAW.  To consider each sentence in isolation seems counter to how reading normally works and to purposefully misconstrue what was written.  The only logic people are using is that when it says "a different unit" it means "a different unit from among those mentioned as eligible within this very rule."  To say "it means literally any different unit" just doesn't make sense given the context of the preceding sentence.  You could make an argument that read with the utmost adherence to what is literal, yes, any different unit in the game is potentially eligible for bonus Acts of Faith, but most people don't write or read for audiences that can't understand context and the way in which the logic of paragraphs flow?  Should each sentence be read in isolation, as though there is no context?

[Commisarp]

Have played a game of 8th now vs Daemons.

2000 points matched play.

My Wife had:
All four greater daemons, a unit of 10 of each of the lesser demons. A Nurgle Soul Grinder, a Flaming chariot and a skull cannon.

I had:
3 Units of Sisters of 10 Sisters of battle w/ Flamer hvy flamer plasma pistol in repressors

Celestine

Grayfax
Canoness with Bolter and power sword (refuse to convert my Veridian) 

Imagnifier
Hospitler
Five Celestians W/Flamer and Hvy flamer all in a Repressor
 

Exorcist
Penitent Engine
Hvy Bolter Rets w/ storm bolter
Melta Dominians in Flamer Immo.  
5 Seraphim with 2 pair Hand flamers and plasma P

Some observations:
I recommend Grayfax, I bet most of us have the model, and if you face a heavily psychic army, you can't rely on the sisters 1D6 Deny the witch, its basically worthless.

Repressors are tricky with there 8 inch flamers. Immolators are far, far better in this regard.
I'm not convinced troops are good enough. My head knows that maxing out on Melta dominions would be better. I don't think this is a sisters problem though. Look at Tactical marines and tell me when you would take them.. The game does not give us enough reasons to take troops right now. Sure, you can get more command points; but you can still get plenty with the other detachments.

I'm going to persist with my 10 girl squads in repressors though, because those are the models I have. I feel like Codexes will give us more reasons to care about command points.

5 Seraphim with two pairs of hand flamers delete T3 units like Horrors or daemonettes. 

Heavy Bolter rets seem meh. Agreed on that point.

[Atrus]

Lets not fall prey to another RAW vs RAI intended argument, we gad enough of that in the Imagifier thread. If this truly is such a big issue then geedub will release an FAQ/errata. Personally i can understand both sides of the argument. Yet personally until geedub brings out an FAQ, ill be having vehicles affected by imagifiers. Mostly because the people i play eith are easy going and in only get to play once a month these dats- so could well be faq'd by the next time i get to play. But thats an argument that takes us off topic.

 

Agreed that troops are okayish right now is only because fir the first time in forever we have other choices that are worthwhile taking. Troops kinda take away points from our nice shinies now and it doesn't help that we have formatuons where we can take nothing but the shinies and take no troops with no drawbacks.

[Beams]

I feel the Repressor will shine as a Dominion transport. It'll get you in position quicker with their buffs, and I'll let you fire all of their flamers out of it, giving you a t7 w12 model firing 4- 5(+combi)flamers and 2d6 heavy flamers.

 

Or if you through in a troop slot as well, you can get 6d6 flamers and 2d6 heavy flamers, and just roast anything you come close too...

 

Or use it as a relatively safe and quick way to get melta in position...

Edited June 18, 2017 by Beams

[Noeh]

I feel the Repressor will shine as a Dominion transport. It'll get you in position quicker with their buffs, and I'll let you fire all of their flamers out of it, giving you a t7 w12 model firing 4- 5(+combi)flamers and 2d6 heavy flamers.

 

Or if you through in a troop slot as well, you can get 6d6 flamers and 2d6 heavy flamers, and just roast anything you come close too...

 

Or use it as a relatively safe and quick way to get melta in position...

 

Or squeeze 2 separate squads of retributors with 4 heavy flamers each in there and fire a whopping 8d6 auto hitting heavy flamers. You won't really have to worry about retaliation unless you roll really badly. It would be an infantry mulching machine.

 

Edit: removed the false info. Suppose since it says "in the shooting phase" it means only in the shooting phase.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Noeh

[Beams]

 

 

I feel the Repressor will shine as a Dominion transport. It'll get you in position quicker with their buffs, and I'll let you fire all of their flamers out of it, giving you a t7 w12 model firing 4- 5(+combi)flamers and 2d6 heavy flamers.

 

Or if you through in a troop slot as well, you can get 6d6 flamers and 2d6 heavy flamers, and just roast anything you come close too...

 

Or use it as a relatively safe and quick way to get melta in position...

Or squeeze 2 separate squads of retributors with 4 heavy flamers each in there and fire a whopping 8d6 auto hitting heavy flamers. You won't really have to worry about retaliation unless you roll really badly. It would be an infantry mulching machine.

 

Worst case is some survive and try and charge the repressor...to which you once again overwatch with 8d6 hits and wreck whatever is left standing.

It would be good, definitely more firepower. Just slower and more expensive haha so pros and cons.

[Montford]

For now I have stopped bringing hand flamers with my Seraphim, and only take Inferno Pistols now. The range loss is not that much, and the killing power is amazing in 8th.

[Beams]

For now I have stopped bringing hand flamers with my Seraphim, and only take Inferno Pistols now. The range loss is not that much, and the killing power is amazing in 8th.

Interesting!

 

I've never done infernos, but have had great luck so far in 8th with handflamers

 

The sheer amount of attacks and mobility really seem to help greatly!

 

But also, I'm usually playing against guard, so the str3 doesn't matter as much.

[Montford]

 

For now I have stopped bringing hand flamers with my Seraphim, and only take Inferno Pistols now. The range loss is not that much, and the killing power is amazing in 8th.

Interesting!

 

I've never done infernos, but have had great luck so far in 8th with handflamers

 

The sheer amount of attacks and mobility really seem to help greatly!

 

But also, I'm usually playing against guard, so the str3 doesn't matter as much.

 

 

In my two games thus far, they beat up a Land Raider, and in another game two inferno girls took a Stromraven from full health to dead. You have to get very close, and risk mortal wounds from an explosion, but the Sisters are after all intolerant homicidal pyromaniacs so I'm sure they are cool with that.  

[Drider]

I've been using a squad of 10 seraphim with hand flamers and not been caring much about if they kill anything. It's all about that turn 1 double move, and locking as many shooty squads in combat as possible while celestine goes beast mode on everything. They're there to do one job, lock heavy weapons units in combat, and they've been doing it well. 

 

What I will say is that the hand flamers work better for what i want them for, BBQing screening units like cultists and other t3 chaff to get them out the way before charging the shooty stuff.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Drider

[ERJAK]

 

 

I feel the Repressor will shine as a Dominion transport. It'll get you in position quicker with their buffs, and I'll let you fire all of their flamers out of it, giving you a t7 w12 model firing 4- 5(+combi)flamers and 2d6 heavy flamers.

 

Or if you through in a troop slot as well, you can get 6d6 flamers and 2d6 heavy flamers, and just roast anything you come close too...

 

Or use it as a relatively safe and quick way to get melta in position...

Or squeeze 2 separate squads of retributors with 4 heavy flamers each in there and fire a whopping 8d6 auto hitting heavy flamers. You won't really have to worry about retaliation unless you roll really badly. It would be an infantry mulching machine.

 

Worst case is some survive and try and charge the repressor...to which you once again overwatch with 8d6 hits and wreck whatever is left standing.

Where'd you see a rule that let's you overwatch out of it? Because you can't.

 

Using it to hunt infantry is not a great idea, if you get wrapped up by orks or w/e and the thing dies you're losing a big chunk of points. Melta drive-by is better.

[Montford]

I like placing one melta and one heavy flamer in each Troop squad.

 

If I can field two Retributor Squads one will have Heavy Bolters and the other Multimeltas.

 

Although now that Heavy Weapons can fire if they move (I still have to get used to that!) I may change that up and stick one Flamer and one Multimelta per Troop squad, and not run any Retributor Multimeltas. That may prove to be more effective, as I'll have some ablative shielding for my Multimeltas and also even out the point distribution a bit, rather than have a lot of points sunk into one squad of MM's, and also not lose them all by losing one squad. It will also make a basic Troop squad a threat to anything on the board, especially at 12 inches or less.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Montford981

[Gen.Steiner]

The more I read this thread the more I realise I need more Seraphim.

[Noeh]

 

 

I feel the Repressor will shine as a Dominion transport. It'll get you in position quicker with their buffs, and I'll let you fire all of their flamers out of it, giving you a t7 w12 model firing 4- 5(+combi)flamers and 2d6 heavy flamers.

 

Or if you through in a troop slot as well, you can get 6d6 flamers and 2d6 heavy flamers, and just roast anything you come close too...

 

Or use it as a relatively safe and quick way to get melta in position...

Or squeeze 2 separate squads of retributors with 4 heavy flamers each in there and fire a whopping 8d6 auto hitting heavy flamers. You won't really have to worry about retaliation unless you roll really badly. It would be an infantry mulching machine.

 

Worst case is some survive and try and charge the repressor...to which you once again overwatch with 8d6 hits and wreck whatever is left standing.

Where'd you see a rule that let's you overwatch out of it? Because you can't.

 

Using it to hunt infantry is not a great idea, if you get wrapped up by orks or w/e and the thing dies you're losing a big chunk of points. Melta drive-by is better.

 

 

It has firing points. That means you can shoot out of it. There's no rule that says you can't overwatch out of it.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Actually there kinda is - by omission.

 

The rules say that six models being transported by the Repressor may shoot in their Shooting Phase. They say nothing about them being able to shoot as an Overwatch reaction.

[A.T.]

It has firing points. That means you can shoot out of it. There's no rule that says you can't overwatch out of it.

 

You do need to be changed to overwatch though? Sisters don't have tau-style supporting fire, and it is the transport rather than the unit being charged.

[Gen.Steiner]

Yeah, you can't overwatch out of the Repressor. You can shoot out of it, but you can't overwatch as the unit being transported is not the one being charged.

[Noeh]

I guess so? Did they really ever specify whether the transport counts as a separate unit than the troops it's holding currently? I know it doesn't once they get out, but what about when they are inside?

 

Brightstar is probably right though. Being that it only says they can shoot in the shooting phase and all.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Noeh

[Servant of Dante]

I'd probably play it as units inside can't overwatch. Might be worth an FAQ though.

[Noeh]

I noticed that there's a lot less transports that allow for firing points. It does say it allows it in the shooting phase, but I agree on the FAQ. Might have been an oversight because of how many vehicles lost firing points.

[sedibear]

Even if we assume that you can overwatch out of the Repressor, the unit being charged is the Repressor not the stuff inside so I doubt Overwatching out of the vehicle is going to be a thing.

[Drider]

Forget what you think you know from 7th. It's not an ittration on an existing system, it's a completely new game.
 

 

 

Core Rules
Page 8
Charge Phase

 

3. Overwatch Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it. Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

 

The transport is the target of the charge. Not the squad inside.

 

The Transport is the target of the charge, not the embarked unit.

 

Core Rules

Page 9

Transports

 

Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.
Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.
If a transport is destroyed, any units embarked within it immediately disembark (see below) before the transport model is removed, but you must then roll one dice for each model you just set up on the battlefield. For each roll of 1, a model that disembarked (your choice) is slain.

 

The embarked unit cannot do anything unless specifically stated.
 

Sororitas Repressor Data slate

Abilities

 

Firing Ports: Up to six models being transported by a Sororitas Repressor can shoot in their shooting phase, measuring and drawing line of sight from any point on the vehicle. Units that shoot in this manner count as having moved if they or the Sororitas Repressor Moved in the preceding Movement phase.

 

 

The Data slate states that embarked units can shoot in their shooting phase. it does not mention overwatch.

 

Units embarked in a Repressor cannot fire overwatch.

[sedibear]

Interestingly, Flamer overwatch can be circumvented by charging at least 9" away (outside the flamer range) and praying huahuahua

 

Vehicles can overwatch now too, yes?