Ferrus objectively the best at being a Primarch

[Olis]

Also, Kurze and Angron both realized their purpose, but no one ever talks about them being the 'best.' I'm not sure that is the best metric to judge them by

 

In fairness, despite how it has been presented, this thread is about as subjective as it gets. Everyone has a favourite (or two). :wink:

[TheRealMcCagh]

And I think we all can agree the best Primarch is [REDACTED]. Remember that time he [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]? Don't Forget when [CENSORED BY ORDER OF THE EMPEROR]. Case closed in my mind

[Knight of the Raven]

I had forgotten Kurze and Angron had realized their purposes. They're pretty much damaged goods that can't be trusted though (similarly to how their sons can't be trusted to be executioners), so even if they're on the podium, Ferrus is still first.

 

Also, wasn't Sanguinius given command of the forces of Terra during the siege?

I believe the overall command dances between Sanguinius and Dorn across different sources.

[Captain Idaho]

No the Lion is not one of the Dauntless Few.

[RandomMarine]

Yeah RG was not happy with the lion turning up at ultramar he literally would have rather any of the other loyalists turn up over the Lion

[SickSix]

So are Curze, Angron, Perty... All of them were tools. Sangy was the most human, yet willingly died. Charismatic, loyal, among the best warriors, a natural leader, yet fierce and proud.

And lets skip over the glaring faults of those guys... :/

 

We aren't saying that that singular trait makes him the best. We are saying on top of his other traits (loyalty, leadership, etc.) that his self awareness separates him from most of his brothers.

[Ishagu]

The fact that Guilliman said he could outright win any war with Ferrus, Dorn or the Wolf at this side speaks volumes about these Primarchs.

The dauntless few wouldn't let pride, their ego or petty squabbles to alter their judgement - something that too many of their brothers fall into doing. Even Sangunius had a real chip on his shoulder.

 

I think Ferrus and Dorn were quintessentially the Generals that the Emperor wanted the Primarchs to be. One could even argue that Guilliman exceeded his mandate as a Primarch with his over ambitions Empire building agenda and grand plans for the future that were probably different from what his father had in mind.

[TheRealMcCagh]

Apparently it was Dorn, not the Lion, that was one of Guilliman's Dauntless Few. So as long as he had either Dorn, Sanguinius, Russ, or Ferrus (and their respective legions), Guilliman felt he could win any war. Considering all of them stayed loyal, I guess Guilliman is a pretty good judge of character

[IR0N]

I'm kind of new to the lore of 40k but didn't the Emp kind of make them all different and have different plans for each Primarch?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm kind of new to the lore of 40k but didn't the Emp kind of make them all different and have different plans for each Primarch?

 

Exactly.  They were each made for a purpose.  They're tools to him, not people; you expect a person to exercise free will, to make their own choices and guide their own development.  He made them to be warlords, each capable of filling that role in slightly different ways.  But very few of the Primarchs really latched on to the fact that their purpose -- their only purpose -- was to win battles.  Several Primarchs devoted themselves to artisanship (Vulkan, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, even Perturabo to an extent), some to learning (Magnus), some to governance (Guilliman).  These are distractions from their purpose, and the aforementioned quote from Ferrus is the basis of the OP's argument.  He really grasped the fact that he was intended to do one thing well, and that was to fight, and to win.

[IR0N]

 

I'm kind of new to the lore of 40k but didn't the Emp kind of make them all different and have different plans for each Primarch?

 

Exactly.  They were each made for a purpose.  They're tools to him, not people; you expect a person to exercise free will, to make their own choices and guide their own development.  He made them to be warlords, each capable of filling that role in slightly different ways.  But very few of the Primarchs really latched on to the fact that their purpose -- their only purpose -- was to win battles.  Several Primarchs devoted themselves to artisanship (Vulkan, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, even Perturabo to an extent), some to learning (Magnus), some to governance (Guilliman).  These are distractions from their purpose, and the aforementioned quote from Ferrus is the basis of the OP's argument.  He really grasped the fact that he was intended to do one thing well, and that was to fight, and to win.

 

 

Interesting.

[Claws and Effect]

I would have thought an important trait for a Primarch would be not being foolish enough to charge headlong into a fight you can't win.

[RandomMarine]

The keys of hel forbidden tech beyond even the tech the traitor ad-mech got from mars. The only examples outside random names are the mech zombie Marines in riven and the new ai Marines that guard the iron fathers in 40k. IMO the type of tech the keys of hel are is pure tech not warp tech so the ad mech couldn't be trusted not to use it.

[Knight of the Raven]

I would have thought an important trait for a Primarch would be not being foolish enough to charge headlong into a fight you can't win.

I didn't read anything related to the Horus Heresy beyond A D-B's Betrayer (and that includes Forge World's lorebooks); would his plan have worked if the second wave had been loyal and had done what they were supposed to do (whatever that was)?

 

Actually, I had an interesting chat at the local GW when I came by to play an introduction game. If Ferrus just wanted Fulgrim dead, could he have just asked for a duel to the death to deal with it? I'm not saying any legionary on either side would have accepted standing by even if given clear orders, but maybe it would have prevented the three shaterred legions from being slaughtered.

 

(Then again, Ferrus probably wouldn't have stopped at Fulgrim after reducing his face to two dimensions, so yeah.)

[rendingon1+]

Yet another "best primarch thread" with a recent "Primarchs were just tools to the Emperor" flavour.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

I would have thought an important trait for a Primarch would be not being foolish enough to charge headlong into a fight you can't win.

I didn't read anything related to the Horus Heresy beyond A D-B's Betrayer (and that includes Forge World's lorebooks); would his plan have worked if the second wave had been loyal and had done what they were supposed to do (whatever that was)?

 

 

Quite likely, yes, even if only by dint of numbers.  The initial assault rolled back the defenses despite being outnumbered mostly due to sheer bloody-mindedness.  When that second wave came down, they could have performed a passage of lines with the first wave Legions and crashed a fresh half-million Astartes into Horus' lines.  Even if Fulgrim still kills Ferrus in our scenario, the Heresy ends on the black sands of Isstvan.

[TheRealMcCagh]

 

 

I would have thought an important trait for a Primarch would be not being foolish enough to charge headlong into a fight you can't win.

I didn't read anything related to the Horus Heresy beyond A D-B's Betrayer (and that includes Forge World's lorebooks); would his plan have worked if the second wave had been loyal and had done what they were supposed to do (whatever that was)?

 

 

Quite likely, yes, even if only by dint of numbers.  The initial assault rolled back the defenses despite being outnumbered mostly due to sheer bloody-mindedness.  When that second wave came down, they could have performed a passage of lines with the first wave Legions and crashed a fresh half-million Astartes into Horus' lines.  Even if Fulgrim still kills Ferrus in our scenario, the Heresy ends on the black sands of Isstvan.

 

 

Part of the reason the first assault pushed so far forward was designed by Horus. It wasn't that they were just kicking that much butt, it was a feint by the EC to draw them further apart. As soon as the second wave closed the trap, the 'retreating' Emperors Children turned and fought. As soon as Ferrus decided to push on alone (or was abandoned by the RG and Salamanders if that's how you want to look at it), he was a dead man. If that second wave was loyal it would have changed everything. But part of the reason the Traitors behaved they way they did was because they knew the second wave was with them.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So?  Let's imagine that the Traitors hold their position rather than falling back to sucker Ferrus because they know the second wave remained loyal.  Let's consider the possibility that the Traitor line hold and the first wave Legions get bogged down in a protracted fight trying to uproot the Traitors from their trenches.

 

How does this change things when the second wave arrives?  Without clear landing zones, the second wave Legions will have to conduct an orbital drop assault directly on top of the Traitor positions just like the first wave did, only now the sheer immensity of the numbers disparity is going to result in the Urgall Depression defenses bending, then breaking, and eventually giving way.  Even if Ferrus dies at Fulgrim's hand again, there's still six loyal Primarchs on the field against four Traitors and the four Traitor Legions, their number denuded first by the in-fighting on Isstvan III and now by the drop assaults from nearly double their numbers, will crumble away in the face of attrition.  They either surrender, or die fighting to the last man, because four Legion fleets versus six (there were only a few Iron Hands ships present) makes it unlikely that any significant number of Traitor Marines are getting off-world alive.

[TheRealMcCagh]

I'm not necessarily disputing your point. Just saying it's difficult to say whether or not Ferrus' plan would have worked or not because everything would have been different from the beginning. Not sure what Horus would have done, but his plan was contingent on getting support from the IW, AL, NL, and WB. If they had all stayed loyal and it really was 7 vs 4 legions, Horus would have had to have another trick up his sleeve. 

 

If it really was 7 vs 4 legions, Horus probably wouldn't have let 3 of them land without a fight. You're right in that the loyalists in that case would have just bulldozed the traitors, I was just pointing out that it would have been different from the beginning had Horus not known he could count of reinforcements

[Captain Idaho]

If Horus didn't have another 4 Legions on his side he likely wouldn't have even made a stand. He would have pretended to be loyal then took his 4 Traitor Legions (World Eaters, The Emperor's Children, Death Guard and Sons of Horus) to Terra, landed under a flag of peace then initiated a coup without anyone knowing. Likely he would have had to have been Chaos Powered up first, but he could easily have bided his time until then etc.

 

Thinking about, how come he didn't do this anyway? :d

 

Manus was consumed with emotion like many of the loyalist Primarchs. Guilliman, normally cool and even headed but sometimes with tunnel vision of ideals, became the Avenging Son. Sanguinius had a few emotional issues himself. Even Corax was overcome with emotions when confronted by Curze.

 

Let's blame Manus too much. He couldn't have known Fulgrim had hidden strength from a daemon weapon at the end and would have beaten Fulgrim were it not for the blade.

[TheRealMcCagh]

If Horus didn't have another 4 Legions on his side he likely wouldn't have even made a stand. He would have pretended to be loyal then took his 4 Traitor Legions (World Eaters, The Emperor's Children, Death Guard and Sons of Horus) to Terra, landed under a flag of peace then initiated a coup without anyone knowing. Likely he would have had to have been Chaos Powered up first, but he could easily have bided his time until then etc.

Thinking about, how come he didn't do this anyway?

Manus was consumed with emotion like many of the loyalist Primarchs. Guilliman, normally cool and even headed but sometimes with tunnel vision of ideals, became the Avenging Son. Sanguinius had a few emotional issues himself. Even Corax was overcome with emotions when confronted by Curze.

Let's blame Manus too much. He couldn't have known Fulgrim had hidden strength from a daemon weapon at the end and would have beaten Fulgrim were it not for the blade.

I really hope we get to see Angel-of-Vengeance Sanguinius in Ruinstorm. So far he has been a tad mopey. I want to actually see why Sanguinius is held in such high esteem by pretty much every other Primarch. It's kind of just been a lot of talk so far.

[SickSix]

 

Let's *not* blame Manus too much. He couldn't have known Fulgrim had hidden strength from a daemon weapon at the end and would have beaten Fulgrim were it not for the blade.

 

That's what burns me up! And I guess that is what also makes it more tragic. Ferrus beat Fulgrim. Ferrus was going to kill Fulgrim. Ferrus was killed by the power of a daemon, not his brother.

 

Oh what could have been.

[jokaero weaponsmith]

The fact that it was 8 legions versus 3 legions and that were any survivors of the loyalists at all suggest that Ferrus may have made the right decision and that it was a fiasco by the traitors.

Out numbered, surrounded, means of escape cut off and betrayed and still they survive.

With that in mind if it had been just the three loyalists versus the four traitors I think the loyalist would have romped home with a win.

As for the traitors going easy to lure them in, that's just traitor propaganda.