Darkshrouds

[Andrés Pacheco]

Hi everyone.

 

If I'm reading the rules correctly, the -1 to hit from a darkshroud stacks. This theoretically means that you could have 4 working in sync to provide a -4 to hit. Now, I can't see any rule staying that a 6 always hits (whereas a 1 always fails, f'rex), which makes units under the influence of the 4 shrouds immune to standard marine shooting! :)

 

Not that I'm recommending such a devious, deathstar style list, and I may well have overlooked something important in the rules, but if not. ...

 

Sammy

2 x 10 black knights

4 x darkshroud

Add apoth/ancient/dark talon to taste

 

20 unkillable black knights with 40 rerollable plasma shots = unforgiving :)

[Charlo]

Don't stack sadly, as the auras would have the same rule name.

[Andrés Pacheco]

Ah, missed that one! Thanks for the quick clarification.

[Crazy Jay]

Where does it say that Auras of the same name don't stack? Genuinely curious.

[CarbonBased]

Where does it say that Auras of the same name don't stack? Genuinely curious.

 

I don't have the rules yet, but the Frontline Gaming guys specifically stated this aura as an example of non-stacking auras.

[Andrés Pacheco]

Yeah, I can't see it anywhere in the rules myself, but I'm siding with these pros for now, because it doesn't seem like their first rodeo :)

[Kewl Imp]

They might be assuming it doesn't stack. Cause other things like Stealth Drones have a similar effect. I've seen people say both on different battle reports so far.

[Knight Master Eladric]

Well you say "unkillable" but don't let any khorne bezerkers get near em. (Or any great number of orks)

 

I too have heard different reports on this. Regardless of how it's played now, I'd expect an FAQ real quick on this type of cheese.

[ShadowCore67]

While it's not stacking the auras, there's some other nasty  little combos you can do with Dark Shrouds.

 

For example, Dark shroud + Dark Talon/Nephlim + Aversion on scary anti vehicle unit means that the scary anti vehicle unit has -3 to hit your flyer.

Edited June 9, 2017 by ShadowCore67

[Andrés Pacheco]

Well you say "unkillable" but don't let any khorne bezerkers get near em. (Or any great number of orks)

I too have heard different reports on this. Regardless of how it's played now, I'd expect an FAQ real quick on this type of cheese.

Ha ha, for sure :) Defo not actually unkillable, but still pretty horrendous to play against.

 

Might make for a cool mechanism in a narrative game though, in moderation. Against similar stealth lists perhaps, or against overwhelming odds, or etc.

[SnakeChisler]

It's not TO HIT

'subtract 1 from all hit rolls'

 

It's the same wording on Aversion it's a -1 on the HIT role

 

6 becomes 5, 5 is the new 4 etc it sort of has the same effect as -1 to hit in what you roll but subtly different

 

Ex tesla causes 3 wounds on a 6 except now there is no 6 it's the new 5, and err overwatch is on a 6 except if your in range of the Shroud as you can never roll a 6.

 

Aversion will block overwatch as well

[Crazy Jay]

It's not TO HIT

'subtract 1 from all hit rolls'

 

It's the same wording on Aversion it's a -1 on the HIT role

 

6 becomes 5, 5 is the new 4 etc it sort of has the same effect as -1 to hit in what you roll but subtly different

 

Ex tesla causes 3 wounds on a 6 except now there is no 6 it's the new 5, and err overwatch is on a 6 except if your in range of the Shroud as you can never roll a 6.

 

Aversion will block overwatch as well

Overwatch specifically says 6s always hit regardless of modifiers

[SnakeChisler]

If you subtract 1 from the HIT roll your opponent can never roll a 6 highest he can get is a 5

[Closet Skeleton]

Where does it say that Auras of the same name don't stack? Genuinely curious.

 

Nowhere, a Warhammer TV twitch stream said it was going to be Errata.

 

By RAW Darkshrouds do stack but its not supposed to.

[Lysere]

If you subtract 1 from the HIT roll your opponent can never roll a 6 highest he can get is a 5

Overwatch specifically says it's without modifiers. Positive or negative, you can never change the overwatch roll.

[shandwen]

Unhittable*

Except by flamers, frag cannons, and the like.

[Eternal Warrior]

I usually find in my 20 years of tabletop gaming anytime I find an "unkillable/unbeatable" anything I seem to find a random opponent.... THAT FRAGS MY WHOLE ARMY PRETTY FREAKING EASILY!!!

 

So now I play for fun. If building that list is fun and affordable to you then do it. Building the unbeatable list isn't very fun of no one wants to play against you after a week or so.

[Elios Harg]

 

If you subtract 1 from the HIT roll your opponent can never roll a 6 highest he can get is a 5

Overwatch specifically says it's without modifiers. Positive or negative, you can never change the overwatch roll.

 

Overwatch specifically says "... and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers." It does not specify that you cannot modify the overwatch roll, only that you cannot modify the requirement for success. These are not the same thing. If the Icon rule stated something to the effect of "when targeting this unit, the shooting unit has a +1 to the required BS roll" then it would be a slam dunk. As it is, the rule interaction is ambiguous. I believe the intent is to have the icon work as a modifier to BS. The problem (as I noticed when trying to figure out how to word a comparable version of the rule that would work to never modify overwatch) is that the new BS/WS characteristics do not play nice with simple wording for modifiers. If I say Soandso Rule grants "+1 to Ballistic Skill" what does that mean? Is it a buff or a penalty? Mathematically, it seems like it would be a penalty as increasing my Ballistic Skill makes it worse. I used to need a 3+, now I need a 4+. Thus, all such modifiers seem to apply to the Hit Roll instead of the characteristic and this causes some confusion.  A simple fix would be to add "to the Hit Roll" to the end of the last sentence in the rule. Then the Icon and any other Hit modifiers would work as intended with overwatch (assuming the intent is to make it always hit on rolled 6s regardless of Hit modifiers).

 

However, I am not 100% certain of that intent because the original Icon did prevent overwatch. It is possible that the writer of the Dark Shroud misinterpreted the Overwatch rule as well when designing the Icon for 8th edition assuming that a -1 to Hit Rolls would prevent overwatch without having to write an extra line about overwatch specifically. 

[Lysere]

If a result is required irrespective of the ballistic skill or modifiers then no, it can't be modified. It straight up says you need to a roll a six regardless of what rules would normally work on it. The only thing that could affect it would be re roll rules of any kind as they are not a modifier.

[Elios Harg]

If a result is required irrespective of the ballistic skill or modifiers then no, it can't be modified. It straight up says you need to a roll a six regardless of what rules would normally work on it. The only thing that could affect it would be re roll rules of any kind as they are not a modifier.

The problem is that the wording does not say what you think it says:  "... and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers." If I work this out literally as written, the hit roll must be a 6 to be successful. Note that it never says that over watch hit rolls cannot be modified, it only says that the requirement is still a 6 irrespective of BS or any modifiers. If it instead said that a 6+ is required for a successful hit roll and all the other wording were the same, then positive modifiers would work as expected since a 7 would hit as well as a 6. As it is written, you ignore the models' BS, but you still apply modifiers, though this does not change the requirement that it must be a 6 to succeed. From a technical standpoint, they literally wrote it in such a way that if I have a +1 to my hit roll, then now I need to roll a 5 to hit on over watch. Requirement to hit = 6 (note, not 6 or more), roll is 5, +1 to hit roll = 6, then hit roll is successful. By contrast, it also means that if you have a -1 modifier, you need to roll exactly a 7 to hit, while an 8 would miss. Of course, both are impossible when rolling a D6. Is this the intuitive way of doing it? No. It is the way that the wording of the rule is telling us to do it, though. The wording actually hints at the intent (why make such a complicated, counter-intuitive modifier system for over watch?). However, I think that the writers did not think through the literal differences between modifying hit rolls and modifying BS or WS when they made the switch to how these mechanics work. If the Icon modified the model's ballistic skill in some way, rather than the hit roll, the original wording would have had the exact effect that I presume the authors intended (that is, to make over watch unaffected by modifiers).

 

This is something that definitely needs to be addressed in the Day 1 FAQ, or it will be up to TOs and players to house rule it into something more sensible. A more clear wording which would have resulted in the (presumed) intent of the rule is: "... and uses all the normal rules except that [hit rolls cannot be modified and] a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill." This tells me clearly that I cannot modify my hit roll and I ignore the model's BS since I must roll a 6 to succeed. 

[dtse]

anyway, there really is no point arguing about it.  GW again writes rules that are not crystal clear.  It will be FAQd.  But take it to the bank. Darkshrouds DO NOT stack. bt aversion and darkshroud does.  Overwatch ruling will likely be that natural 6 before modifiers, but again, just wait for FAQ

[SnakeChisler]

The Warhammer TV chat guys were talking about something going up so a 6 did X therefore with modifiers does a 7 do X as well, the answer was a straight no it has to be a six so in that specific case a roll of 5 triggers the specific rule (D6 + 1).

 

I'm normally painting when its on so only half listen

 

It sort of made sense as we were checking through Grey Knights at the weekend and Hammerhand says "Add 1 to any Wound Rolls" so 1 is the new 2 etc.. to 5=6 & 6=7 and if you trigger an ability on a 6 then it would now trigger on a 5 but not a 6

 

Apparently something in Eldar Nerfs it the other way so if hammerhand then after everything has happened nothing has happened :)

 

This makes no sense with a 7th head on but seems easy enough to understand once you get your head round not thinking of the dice being equal to what you rolled.

 

They did at one point mention the DS nerf batting Tesla going the other way

 

It doesn't point a conclusive finger but gives a fairly decent picture of the way they are thinking with these things

 

We've taken it as Aversion & the DS block overwatch in our group but we were split just went with what the majority of us felt it meant and agreed to apply the plus / minus rule universally to anything else like that that came up.

The deciding factor that swung it was that it blocked Overwatch in 7th so the wording and how it works appears intentional.

[BlackTriton]

@snakechisler
I now believe you are wrong, altougth I thouth the same thing in my first reading.
I changed my mind when pointed to the ''use the normal rule'' part.
Taken in a vacuum, the wording is confusing, but put it next to the ''to hit'' segment and you will realise your mistake.

I would gladly write it down, but I am on my cel and dont have access to the exact wording.

 

 

EDIT with rules by the rule book, color coded to better represent my point.

 

hit roll:

"[...] each time a model makes an attack, roll a dice. if the roll is equal to or greater than the model's ballistic skill, then it scores a hit with the weapon [...]"

 

overwatch:

"overwatch is resolved like normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rule except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's ballistic skill or any modifiers."

 

now put together:

"each time a model makes an overwatch attack, roll a dice. If the roll is equal to [...]  A 6 [...], irrespective of the firing model's ballistic skill or any modifiers] ,then it scores a hit with the weapon"

 

also, as I missed it in my first read through, in the to hit rules: "[...] a roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply." 

meaning if you roll a 1 (as in a "natural" one) you fail, even if your 2+ BS character gets a +1 to hit roll !

 

and : "[...] re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied" - meaning an opposing tac marine allowed to reroll all failed to hit, shooting your tac marine under a DarkShroud do not get to reroll "natural" result of 3, even if your DS turns it into a miss.

Edited June 14, 2017 by BlackTriton

[SnakeChisler]

 

 

and : "[...] re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied" - meaning an opposing tac marine allowed to reroll all failed to hit, shooting your tac marine under a DarkShroud do not get to reroll "natural" result of 3, even if your DS turns it into a miss.

 

That's never going to happen its too complex and I wouldn't even go there with my group or club.

 

For now we know 100% that any effect triggered on a rolling of a 6 doesn't happen (ex Tesla) and wait to be enlightened by GW as it appears to be clear to them how this is supposed to work.

 

I can see the logic in 6 always hitting and 1 always failing given that Aversion + DS means Ork units are hitting on 7's and Hammerhand on a 2+ auto hits

 

:)

 

Not long now !   

 

 

[Fofjunior]

I went in to GW today and asked the staff member about the dark shroud and overwatch. The answer was unless a rule or ability specifically states it effects overwatch then it doesn't.

 

So dark shroud can reduce incoming fire to units in general but does not stop overwatch.