Why assassins are so good! (8th edition)

[sedibear]

Vindicares sniping Commissars to make the entire line crumble to morale is going to be a common sight i wager

[Feral_80]

Argh. I'll try again: he WON'T be really killing that many support characters, period. Unless he rolls 6s and 6s. You seem to be overlooking that even the weaker characters are 4W now, and the Vindicare only deals d3 wounds unless you are very lucky.

That's why he won't be that of a game changer. He is not awesome, period. He's ok, but he's certainly not that great as many seem to think.

 

ONLY way I see a Vindicare achieving something: couple him with 1-2 squads of snipers (which not every army has) and he might be able to deliver the killing blow to an already wounded weak character. But then again, if I need to use 2-3 squads to take out a 50 points support character, that is only fair - and I certainly would not regard it as incredibly powerful.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Feral_80

[H311fi5h]

Smart players will hide all their important but weak buffing characters behind vehicles. Turning a Chimera sideways you can hide 4 human-sized characters, no problem. You're not gonna get my Commissars, Company Commanders, Astropaths etc.

I don't think the Vindicare is worth it.

[HenricusTyranicus]

Weaker character like Commissars and such are 3 wounds. A Vindicare who hits and wounds has a 33% chance of wiping said Commissar from the earth. If you have any other snipers in your army, and they succeed in softening up the commissar by one wound, that's a 66% chance. If you're running with conscript spam, that hurts....a lot. 

[Beams]

Or you could use the vindicare massive range to support any suqads that are close enough to fire at a character.

[H311fi5h]

If you're running conscript spam you can easily daisy chain conscripts back to your commissar over large distances. The Commissar is just gonna stay behind some LOS blocking terrain while the conscripts are fighting 20 inches away yet still in the aura.

[Feral_80]

Exactly. There are plenty of ways to mitigate the actual (already modest) potential of a Vindicare. It is not awesome, period...stop getting that excited.

[Gothical]

"Earning its points back" is thinking that really needs to go out of the window, it is only a small part of the game, especially now.

 

To use an earlier example, killing 2 Imagifiers won't meet the points cost of the Vindicare, but it can completely cripple a Sisters army that was planning on using the Acts to retreat from combat out-of-phase, to shoot twice, get double-movement shenanigans etc. These things can completely change the way the game is played, meaning the Vindicare has had a huge impact without meeting its exact points value.

 

Furthermore, you can certainly keep that Commissar out of Line of Sight, but that doesn't mean the Vindicare hasn't had an impact before the game begins. For example, look at how the board is set up these days, particularly in regards to Objectives. If I know I have a powerful character-killer then I can attempt to place my Objectives in such a way that any LOS-blocking terrain is far enough away the Conscripts won't be able to benefit from the hiding Commissar. Now you have to either abandon claiming that Objective with Guard infantry, or risk bringing the Commissar out into the open.

 

Vehicles are a great screen, but it does force your opponent to commit them in perhaps less-than-ideal ways - I would certainly rather they were using a Chimera to screen an Officer/Commisar than throwing 4 Bullgryn down my throat, and if they use anything more potent than a Dedicated Transport then it has just jumped to the top of the priority queue as not only will I be able to take out a good target but expose what it was shielding too.

 

I am not a massive fan of any of the Assassins, as it happens. The Eversor has a miserable kill-tally given its number of attacks and special gear, the Culexus has been battered into the ground (massive loss of firepower and Psyk-Out Grenades look a bit pants), and the Callidus' abilities are limited to first turn/special deployment (and both random).

 

The Vindicare looks good though, especially if you prioritise any Command Re-Rolls that shooting phase for his Damage. He will most likely take 2 turns to kill support characters (though with a little luck he can one-shot them, even one-shot front-line characters with a lot of luck), but stopping him from doing it is really tricky - he's got an extraordinary range on his gun (and can even move 7" to regain LoS and still hit on 3s) he's a Character himself (therefore can only be shot by Snipers/if the closest model), -2 to hit if in cover (which he will be for height/LoS advantage and being hard to catch in melee, immune to many unit types if high enough- if there's none in your DZ you can always Independent Operative him T1 onto a juicy spot), has a 4+ Invulnerable Save, and finally has 5 Wounds for any lucky Sniper Mortal Wounds. Digging him out is going to take effort so he can afford to spend multiple turns killing a single support character.

[gilt_imp]

I just discovered a possible solution for my idea for a Vanguard detachment of assassins. Who would be the HQ?

 

Hmmmm how about Cypher?

 

He is still faction Imperial and is a HQ. I have the Gathering Storm figure anyway so will try him out. I actually quite like this idea even if it doesn't play out so well

[Lysere]

A lone assassin usually isn't much of a threat. If you need them to do their job well it's always been important to take more than one. A lone vindicare won't be dropping characters every shot but two to three are all but guaranteed to so exactly that.

 

This is by far the best iteration of the vindicare. His shots are almost mortal wounds yet have the potential to do up to 6 damage which no other lone sniper can do.

[NatBrannigan]

Yep, he looks good to me. Having a good chance of killing a support character at an inopportune time will be a very handy option. If the enemy is banking on that priest for the extra attacks next turn or for an Act of Faith from an Imagifier (How good do sisters look this edition by the way!? About Damn time they were bought up to everyone else's level) the Vindicare is there and ready. Blam.

 

I don't know if I'm lucky but I often took one in 7th and he was almost always amazing. Now in 8th he's not going to be blowing up vehicles (which makes sense to me) or picking out special and heavy weapon carrying models (very handy) so he's lost some utility. But really if he kills a couple of terminators even that's points paid back.

 

Good, but not amazing for his points. And really, I want most units in the game to be good but not amazing.

[WarriorFish]

The Vindicare can still pick off individual models right? That was always great, as removing a specific model can do wonders for your wider battle plan. I think the Assassins are not meant to be one model wrecking machines, seems more so in 8th. It's about getting the best from them in the right situation which while sometimes easier said than done I'd much rather have some nuance than point and click. I think I might try my Vindicare out soon, see how he does :tu:

[lazyj]

The Vindicare can still pick off individual models right? That was always great, as removing a specific model can do wonders for your wider battle plan. I think the Assassins are not meant to be one model wrecking machines, seems more so in 8th. It's about getting the best from them in the right situation which while sometimes easier said than done I'd much rather have some nuance than point and click. I think I might try my Vindicare out soon, see how he does

They can pick off an individual IF that model is also a character, so things like commisars, apothecaries, chaos sorcerers etc are all fair game, although he probably won't kill any of these in one shot (unless he gets really lucky on the to wound roll).

 

However, his old ability of being able to pick out individuals in a unit is now gone. That means we can no longer use him to snipe out heavy/special weapons in a unit, or squad leaders.

Edited June 17, 2017 by lazyj

[WarriorFish]

Poo, I used to really like that :(

[Gothical]

To expand upon my previous post regarding the mere presence of a Vindicare being powerful, the Designers Notes/FAQ contains a note that really furthers the effectiveness of positioning.

 

If a unit is out of coherency, and cannot regain coherency in a single movement phase, then it cannot move and therefore remains out of coherency with all the associated penalties. This massively restricts the daisy-chain potential of Conscripts from a hidden Commisar, as it means the opponent either has to remove models from the front of the unit (putting them out of range of objectives, rapid-fire tricks and so on) or remove them from the back (meaning they will be out of range of the Commissar's bubble); if they pull from the middle of the unit then the whole unit will need to reposition, likely backwards if they are trying to not expose the Commissar, or move the Commissar into a different position and risk the sniper's bullet.

[Joasht]

Curious about the lack of Callidus and Culexus mentions in a thread about assassins :X

 

I love the Eversor and will probably never play a Vindicare, but the Callidus and Culexus seem pretty useful; Culexus especially since I expect to see Psykers in every army (psychic powers are pretty powerful IMO in this edition).

 

Callidus I'm a bit lukewarm. You seem to be paying a lot of points for her fancy disruptive ability, which frankly probably doesn't matter much.

[Silentz]

Eversor notes after 1 game vs Orks.

 

Expectations: He would do a 9" charge into a massive squad of Orks, kill a bunch of them and then die. 

 

Reality: He failed the 9" charge with a roll of 2, 2, 1.. so not even rerollable!  But... managed to kill a Trukk, and about 20 boyz who charged him before getting overwhelmed.  He was a fantastic distraction, great at Overwatch and is genuinely useful against hordes for 70pts. 

 

The only downside is that he gives me -1 CP in my pure AdMech force... but AdMech aren't naturally great at hordes and I still think he's a worthwhile addition.

[Charlo]

Vindicare is easy, point and click at infantry characters you want dead. Best save anyone is getting is a 5+, as you ignore cover and a 2+ is reduced to a 5+ and all invulns ignored. Things like chaplains, librarians and such are all easy meat.

 

Best thing to support an Eversor? A second, third and fourth Eversor!

 

Will it blend...? That's the question!

 

Callidus is interesting, honestly feel shes the combat version of the Vindicare now, with a low enough roll on her infiltration you'll be able to get her closest to a character instead of an enemy unit. Pop off some mortal wounds with her pistol, then charge in ignoring those pesky invulnerable saves. Really good against things like Eldar Farseers who only ever have a 4++ which is totally ignored.

 

Culexus is the patient mans assassin. By far the tankiest thanks to your opponent only being able to hit him on 6+. Position him near a Psyker and pop some -4AP wounds off with his head cannon and let the rage induce. His best target is things with good armour but lacking in an invuln, as he ignores armour saves in combat.

[Arkeo Nox]

I ran some test :

 

An execution Force (1 Vindicare, 1 Cullexus, 1 Callidus and 1 Eversor) against Kaldor Draigo.

 

Our target : T4 Save 2+/3++ 7W

 

Keep in mind : No cover, our 4 assassins are able to deepstrike within 9", and all of them will charge successfully (easy for eversor and callidus, and they do most of CC damage).

 

  Hit rolls Wound rolls Save rolls Damages

Vindicare (shoot) 0,83 0,69 0,46 1,35

(CC) 4,17 2,08 0,35 0,35

Eversor (shoot) 3,33 2,5 0,83 0,83

(CC) 6,67 5,93 1,98 1,98

Cullexus (shoot) 2,92 1,94 0,65 0,65

(CC) 3,33 1,67 0,56 0,56

Callidus (shoot)       1,5

(CC) 5 2,64 1,58 1,58        

 

Total : 8,8 unsaved wounds.

 

On average, we have a kill !  Even with some excedent wounds.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Arkeo Nox

[Silentz]

You forgot his unmodifiable 1+ rerollable invulnerable plot armour save. Edited June 21, 2017 by Silentz

[Vel'Cona]

All the Assassins seem to have a niche, though with the rapidly-evolving 8th edition meta it's going to be tough to nail down the best choice.  The Vindicare is the "safe" choice given he can predictably hand out 2 Wounds on average a turn to whatever Infantry unit you want, and is going to be annoying for many opponents to remove (though a Hellturkey will roast him alive).  The Eversor is the bargain choice and could be the secret sauce for taking out camping characters, unless your opponent is smart enough to bubble wrap (leaving him as pure anti-horde).  The Callidus is decent in both phases and has some nifty tricks, as well as effective delivery, but she really wants to target low-Ld units and those might be tough to find as a rule.  Finally, the Culexus is godlike versus Psyker-spammers, especially now that he's that much harder to target/destroy.  He'll be fighting with Sisters of Silence for list space but he's way cheaper, all things considered.

[Gentlemanloser]

I dislike that the Vindicare doesn't Mortal Wound like every other Sniper in the game. :(

[Charlo]

I dislike that the Vindicare doesn't Mortal Wound like every other Sniper in the game.

 

I mean, sure - but he ignores invulnerable saves already and the best save someone can get from him is a 5+

 

Much better than the occasional single wound on a 6.

[Gentlemanloser]

Other Snipers deal extra Mortal wounds on a 6+, in addition to their normal damage.  It seems to be a staple of the Sniper weapon, baked in as a unit ability.

 

The Vindi should have had this as well.

 

Ignore Invulnerable saves is ok, but an extra Mortal Wound on top would have been better.  And in fitting with the abilities of, lesser, Snipers. ;)

[Charlo]

Other Snipers deal extra Mortal wounds on a 6+, in addition to their normal damage.  It seems to be a staple of the Sniper weapon, baked in as a unit ability.

 

The Vindi should have had this as well.

 

Ignore Invulnerable saves is ok, but an extra Mortal Wound on top would have been better.  And in fitting with the abilities of, lesser, Snipers.

 

Yeah but instead he deals 6 damage on a 6+ to wound, against which will only ever get a maximum 5+ save (then FNP rolls etc)!