Tide v Horde

[Firepower]

So among the number crunches going on, it's argued that huge horde armies are the new ultra invincible armies: the sorts of armies that bring a hundred or more infantry to the table, off the notion that there is no way to spit enough bolters, nuclear blue balls and fiery splat damage to thin their numbers before they get stuck in.

 

Of course we are the preeminent horde Marines by reputation, but Marines are still relatively pricey to other units.  

 

I don't know the rules for Orks and such, as I haven't seen them.  So I'd like to know how we can stack up if we go Tide versus Horde.  Can almost straight up infantry Templars win a slap fight against a table full of puny tyranids or shrooming Orks?  Is it a good solution, or can the widely accepted approach of mechanized infantry prevail despite the rumored invincibility of hordes?  What sorts of load outs are the best approach?  The same number crunchers seem insistent that only Plasma guns and Grav Cannons are worth more than a bowl full of spit.

 

Regardless of viability, I look forward to a battle between a table full of marching Templars and a table full of greenskins or bitey bugs. :)

 

And naturally, if we get special rules reminiscent of our 4th edition stuff now that you can consolidate into combat, all the better :D

[Honda]

A friend of mine is an Ork player (among many other armies) and a good one at that. We've both been discussing a MiniWargaming battle report on Youtube.

 

What is interesting to me about that report is:

 

1. Not that the SM player took a crappy list and then didn't play it very well,

 

2. But what the 30 man boyz mobs were able to do with some buffs from Ghaz and a Pain boy

 

Basically, the Ork player was getting 15-20 boyz in assault (i.e. a charge), with usually around 4 or 5 attacks PER boy. He was throwing 80+ dice on a regular basis, so even when hitting with half of his rolls, it was a huge number of saves for anything he ran into. Now, he only took two of those 30 man mobs, but that made a huge impression on me.

 

Where we fit into this is hard to say right now. I don't know what our max number of attacks can be, but it would seem like the only way to really counter that kind of foot army is with large Crusader squads. So far, I haven't seen a weapon system that kicks out enough damage to take one of those units off. I will admit that IG may have more of that capability with their artillery.

 

What I think will be interesting is the fact that Orks may become the new meta buster this year, because a lot of tournament players will still be afraid of Wraithknights and Rip Tides and the Orks are going to sneak in there with 200 bodies and freak a lot of people out.

 

So coming back full circle, can we take them on...maybe LRC + a large Crusader squad could take on one of those units and defeat them. The challenge then might be what if the equivalent number of boys to that point/power total is 60-75 boyz @ 4 attacks?

 

I think we're about to find ourselves in the middle of a very interesting exercise.

 

Do I think we'll be able to solve the problem? Yes, but I don't know that I know what the answer is just yet.

[Lysere]

The most important thing is bringing the mob of boys down enough so they lose the bonus for having a large unit. After that just try and get the charge or make them fight something they can't really hurt to waste attacks.

[Brother_Angelus]

A friend of mine is an Ork player (among many other armies) and a good one at that. We've both been discussing a MiniWargaming battle report on Youtube.

 

What is interesting to me about that report is:

 

1. Not that the SM player took a crappy list and then didn't play it very well,

 

2. But what the 30 man boyz mobs were able to do with some buffs from Ghaz and a Pain boy

The battle report was a mess though. Ghaz's +1A only works in a fight phase after the unit charges, but kept being used every fight phase thereafter.  It makes a huge difference when you're talking about 20+ bonus attacks.

 

You can't really ignore the fact the marine player was running a massively sub-optimal army to face orks. Missile launchers, hurricane bolters, a whirlwind all would helped bring those mobs down to a manageable size. Even a couple of flamers might have helped. He was rolling centurions like a Riptide was about to show up.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Brother_Angelus

[Rustican]

Played a match vs an Ork Player yesterday.   He was fielding two 20 man boys squads with a weird boy and nobs and a warboss in a battle wagon.  I had a 15 man crusader squad with bolters, an another 15 man crusader squad with CCW/Pistols in a LRC with Grimaldus. And lastly one squad of the cenobite servitors.

 

On the first turn the weird boy teleported one 20 man boys squad 9" from my lines.   Luckily he failed the assault even with his rerolls.  The BW defroller took 3 wounds from the LRC The Nobs/Warboss disembarked and assaulted my LRC but did nothing.  

 

I counter assaulted on my turn assaulting both the boys and Nobs with my disembarked close combat squad and shooty crusader squad.  Grimaldus was a huge help,  the rerolls and extra attacks were a massive help.  I wiped out the Nobs and took the warboss to half.  The boys squad also lost 9 boys.   They took 7 more wounds due to moral.  

 

My shooty squad was down to half strength but I ignored the moral test due to the cenobytes.    The rest of the game was a drawn out slog fest as the other 20 man boys squad made it into the rumble and things got messey from there.  The game ended in a draw, with the LRC and cenobyes facing off against a BW and one Nob with a power claw.  

 

I think the mob of boys is going to be the theme going forward.  Had the 20 boy deepstriking unit made it into assault the first turn, it would have been a different game.  The only things that kept the game level was Grimaldus and the cenobytes.   They are worth their points and I think they are auto-take now it you plan on black tide or large crusader squads. 

[Castellan Doren]

I been thinking shooting terminators deepstriked into their backfields. Make them choose a direction.

[Firepower]

I been thinking shooting terminators deepstriked into their backfields. Make them choose a direction.

 

Divide and conquer sounds good, but a big enough army can deny deep strike by placement, since you gotta find a 9" space to land in.

[redmapa]

Necrons, Orks, IG and Tyranids are absolutely bonkers and I think we shouldnt be focusing on matching their strengths be they numbers, shooting or anything else but rather focus on their weakness which in the case of all those armies is their reliance on character for buffs. It might be easier said than done but kill their synapse creatures/commissars/overlords/warbosses and they will all crumble under pressure.

 

Drop Pods, deep striking units or scout snipers will probably become staple in most lists in order to get to a character and kill them.

[Castellan Doren]

I would plan the DS for turn 3 or 4. All but IG would be advancing which should leave the backfield open. Or leaving them undeployed in the edge of the table is sometimes good enough to rattle a player or two.

 

Used to do that in another game to herd players.

 

Necrons have to be 100% focused down one unit at a time since they can roll for the whole unit if one is still alive in that unit. I lost my first game of 8th not knowing about that.

[Gendo]

I've spent days trying to find the best tactics and units loadout for this edition and I'm non the wiser.

 

To run CC units we need lots of firepower to support them and some distraction, used to run a TFC in the barrage profile, LasPredator and Pods behind enemy lines but that doesn't seem good this time around.

 

CC squads on foot won't make it in enough numbers to take down a larger specialised mob and running more than one means we lose the much needed buffs from our HQs due to only a 6" bubble.

 

Mixed squads maxing out on Grav or Plasma (supercharged if rerollable) and have the rest with Chainswords seems a good option, thin down the enemy unit and then charge instead of "all in charge and hope i make it", but i wonder if with this approach we have enough punch either way.

A good combo for this approach could be two large mixed squads on foot with Grimaldus, Retinue and Apothecary following in an AC Razorback, hoping i can keep the characters safe in a sandwich and everything catching the Retinue 12" bubble.

 

Or Allies, given that GW is making it very easy that seems the best way to go, we can buy cheaper artillery and firepower elsewhere and have a wall of fire around our enemies while we charge up.

 

Edit: still grinding the gears lol.

 

Having something shooty that moves fast like bikes or jump packs could be a good support as well, they either have to worry about that very close firepower or the slowly advancing tide which will be an issue next turn.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Gendo

[Andrés Pacheco]

All-bolter centurions look pretty good for horde duty, or the classic flame wall. Combi-flamer "sternguard" should put a good dent in a large mob, or flamer assault centurions with hurricanes.

[Firepower]

The more gleefully pessimistic folks (I'm a pessimist but more weary than gleeful) are ranting about the range issue of Flamers when it comes to defensive roles like Overwatch, i.e. charging from 9 inches away means the 8 inch range of the Flamer removes it from the Overwatch firing (pun!) line.

 

Hurricanes on the other hand are very tasty options, but tend to come on semi-prohibitively expensive platforms.  But I do look forward to an ill advised close up look at my LRC by a self destructively curious horde.

[HenricusTyranicus]

As a guard player, I can confirm that it's snipers above all else  that worry me. Take away my commissars and commanders, and my troops will lose 50% of their effective shooting and be vulnerable to battleshock. 

 

Now this represents a problem to the classic Templar player, because sniper scouts are a no-no for them. In that case, my suggestion would turn either to assault marines (Fly over the main squad, target the buffer) or an allied Vindicare.

[Andrés Pacheco]

The more gleefully pessimistic folks (I'm a pessimist but more weary than gleeful) are ranting about the range issue of Flamers when it comes to defensive roles like Overwatch, i.e. charging from 9 inches away means the 8 inch range of the Flamer removes it from the Overwatch firing (pun!) line.

 

Hurricanes on the other hand are very tasty options, but tend to come on semi-prohibitively expensive platforms.  But I do look forward to an ill advised close up look at my LRC by a self destructively curious horde.

Pessimists are actually the positive ones, the world just constantly fails to live up to our high expectations. Never trust an optimist, they must have very low standards :)

 

I quite like the flamer ruling, personally, although I can see how it could easily frustrate. Weighing up a more difficult charge range against getting a burn wall to the face makes for some tactical play. In a perfect world I suppose you try to get the first shots in, which puts the unit close enough to be within 8", then just set (flame) spears vs. charge and wait for the rush :)

 

Hurricanes are gonna be messy I think. 5 bolter cents in a Crusader with a Cap for RR will cost half an army but should just silence infantry by about T2. Stick the remaining ~1100 points in anti armour and call it a day :)

[Lysere]

One thing I feel we really need to get used to is our characters being much more useful.

 

Before now a banner was kind of meh, the apothecary was just for the command squad, and the champion was just a cheap way to get a power weapon on the squad.

 

All three of those are now incredibly useful, and our captains and chaplains are even more useful than they were before.

 

I mean if you have a squad in range of a banner when it gets charged, half of the models that die are going to get to swing anyway with whatever bonuses we have. Add in our cenobyte servitors which we can just tuck behind a tank so they can't be seen and we don't even care about morale.

[Acebaur]

LRC's are going to be scary for orks. Just on average they are going to kill 12 orks per round of shooting. Add in Helbrecht's rerolls and that number jumps to 15-16.

[Lysere]

LRC's are going to be scary for orks. Just on average they are going to kill 12 orks per round of shooting. Add in Helbrecht's rerolls and that number jumps to 15-16.

Add a nearby lieutenant for rerolling wounds of 1 for even more dead orks.

[Acebaur]

 

LRC's are going to be scary for orks. Just on average they are going to kill 12 orks per round of shooting. Add in Helbrecht's rerolls and that number jumps to 15-16.

Add a nearby lieutenant for rerolling wounds of 1 for even more dead orks.

Yes but There are no Primaris in my crusade ;)

[The Spanish Inquisitor]

Depending of the points level of the game, you can take a vindicator Assassin to shoot Ghaz and the painboy. 

 

I confirm for the efficiency of LRC. I played a game with a single LRC with Helbrecht giving rerolls to ALL misses to the LRC. 

The LRC killed at least half of the army of an Emperor's children  player. 

 

Add a second LRC, shoot and charge the survivors. Xenos purged. 

[Kilamandaros]

The LRC is definitely our most effective anti-horde weapon, plus the fact it can deliver a huge CC threat of its own. In mine I'm going 2 5 man Crusader squads, Grimaldus + cenobytes, Apothecary and either Emperors Champion, Helbrecht or Banner.

 

Vindicares are definitely a good idea for picking off buff characters, got one already thinking about another. Assassins seem like a steal this edition.

 

Fliers might also be a good option.

[Andrés Pacheco]

+1 on fliers, a bolter raven only costs old landraider money, and throws out shells like water from a fountain. 3 of those filled with the Emperor's favourite psychopaths should be purgier than The Purge, which in itself contained high quantities of purgationisation.

[Firepower]

Currently have a list tinkering over in the subforum with an LRC and a Raven.  It rather negates any chance of a Tide army for myself, costing so much, but it certainly seems closer to a 'proper' solution versus hordes.

 

Still, it'd be nice to find a way to throw 40 or 50 Templars at 100 or more heretics with some likelihood of coming out on top.

[Andrés Pacheco]

How about something like this:

 

2 x full crusader hammer/fist squads with Grimaldus & Cenobytes

 

4 x min heavy bolter crusader squads

 

5 x Ven Dreads with Las/Auto

 

Bare bones Cap & Bare bones Primaris Lieutenant (I know, I know. ..call them the Master of Ordinance or something)

 

That's 10 lascannon shots and 20 autocannon shots hitting on re-rollable 2+, re-rolling 1s to wound, screened by 4 small deep strike prevention units, covering the advance of 40 morale-immune troops.

 

7 CP for maxing lascannon damage, that should give your opponent something to think about at least.

[Castellan Doren]

Run 3 preds with lascannons. 12 LC shots. Probably cheaper than dreads. And i think higher wounds too.

[Andrés Pacheco]

Run 3 preds with lascannons. 12 LC shots. Probably cheaper than dreads. And i think higher wounds too.

Defo a worthy consideration. Ven Dreads have a 2+ BS though, which gets silly with the captain for rerolls of 1! Pretty much nothing mixes all game :) Save 87 points, too, which pays for the Lieutenant. You lose out on mobility and wounds though, as you said, so both options are worth a look I think.