Initial Thoughts: Dealing with horde armies

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So the loyalist sections of the boards are full of talk about how to deal with horde armies, specifically 'Nids and Orks both of which seem to -- at least on the surface -- provide knee-jerk reactions of "oh borken, we can't kill 140 Orks!"  Centurions, Whirlwinds, and Thunderfire Cannons seem to be the most common response to the question of how to deal with large numbers of mostly Morale-immune gribbly chaff models sprinting head-long across the mid-field.

 

None of those three models are available to us here in the Great Eye, so I figured I'd bring the conundrum to the rest of you.  How are you personally planning to handle that kind of an enemy?  Vindicators?  Dakkafiends?  CSMs stacked with flamers?  Zerkers going toe-to-toe (or toe-to-claw, as the case may be)?

 

I'm starting off with a quad-heavy bolter Havoc squad and a Baledrake, but I'm curious where everyone else's minds are at.

[Khornestar]

For my World Eaters lists, it will be Berzerkers and Khârn spamming attacks. It's gonna be glorious.

 

For my Renegades, it will be Wyverns, Earthshaker artillery, Stormlord (if we get it)/Macharius Vulcan (if we don't) - but heck, why not take both? Oh, and hordes of my own.

 

Rapier quad heavy bolters will put in lots of work, as will our many small units (bikers, raptors, havocs) that can take 1 flamer per model (or 3 out of 5). Heavy bolter havocs are probably good, but the rapiers will put out more shots. I'm not sure on this, but if a twin weapon gives you twice the shots, a quad weapon should give you 4 times the shots, right? Rapier heavy bolters putting out 12 shots each? Dunno about that, I guess we'll find out soon.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Venomlust

[Sonoftherubric21]

This is a question I have been trying to figure out myself. 

Within Thousand Sons (and chaos itself) having the ap-2 is nice and it means that even cover wont help some of these models retain any kind of save (let alone a good one).....but as I have said in the other thread when faced with 90+ Ork Boyz or Guard it becomes a game of weight of dice doing its job, with 2-4x the rolls it becomes difficult to keep up with numbers. 

Ill be using plenty of soul reapers and Inferno bolters, but we only get 1-2 rounds of shooting before being stuck in combat where we slowly grind/grind/grind. 

 

Flamers are a go-to that I will not ignore, even with something as pricey as a warp-flamer on a rubricae (33 pts!) you need to realize that statistically you are still getting at minimum 1 AUTOMATIC hit.  Theres a 33% chance you will get just as many STR 4, ap -2 hits as a bolter firing would.....and theres a 66% chance of getting MORE hits, which of course helps alot before combat is joined mid-table. 

 

Berzerkers are going to be a go-to option, Cultists/pox walker/tzaangor help us TREMENDOUSLY in that arena as a faction but it does require us to make a balanced list (which is good!) in order to deal with hordes. I myself have taken to using 2 units of Rubricae (soul reapers), and a couple units of Tzaangor in every list (usually numbering around 20) and it helps with numbers tremendously.  Though I am still weighting my options. 

Dreadnoughts with heavy bolters/Missile wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea, dakka-fiends I am quite fond of as of this edition, as you are looking at 8+D3 shots (even hitting on 4's thats fairly good threat) 

 

I have also found that characters this edition are SUPER susceptible to hordes. If a character is out in the open and targeted by a horde...you may as well remove that figure, (at least with orks...) 

 

Orkz in particular are hard to deal with if a warboss is nearby since they have perma run/charge built in now, so they engage before you can really fire to much at them. Guard will be very sturdy, but if you can manage to nail the commissars those units will vanish upon some Morale checks easily enough.  LD 6? 7? something like that. 

Edit; Side note, Noise Marines would also be fantastic in this roll with 3 shot guns each at 24 inchs Assault-moving with full shots at range, ignoring cover.  The enemy will get saves, but you can output 15 shots for 5 models a turn and move with relative freedom. Even IF they die; they still get shots. So its something to keep in mind.  Raptors and Warp talons both feel capable of mulching opposing infantry as well. 

Edited June 15, 2017 by Sonoftherubric21

[CrimsonReign]

same way I always have, cultists with flamers 

 

be the horde 

[Panzer]

Same as usual, but it will be harder than before. It's not like we got some new miracle unit. ^^

 

However depending on the mission you don't even need to kill the whole army. I assume that eventually when people got used to 8th we will see a lot of games where in the end is still a lot on the table and the winner is determined by who played the mission better.

Like focussing your whole damage output on one area to claim a key objective to get points while ignoring the rest of the board for that turn etc.

[Lord Abaia]

Another option is just massed bolters. I ran the numbers yesterday and 20 bolter CSM rapid firing, rerolling 1 from a Lord, and with +1 to hit from Prescience will kill like 16 Orks or 22 gaunts per turn in shooting.

 

A 30 man boyz squad starts to take morale after 13 dead models (on a 5+) and if they don't have another large unit or a Warboss nearby it goes downhill quick from there because each lost model counts twice. For instance after losing 16 boys in a turn they will lose another d6+2 models.

 

The humble bolter might be one of the most points efficient methods of killing hordes for MEQ in 8th. Send more corpses into the grinder and crush them with the iron without.

[CrimsonReign]

from the maths over on the loyalist side, flamers are around 3x more effective than rapid firing bolters (also can fire after advancing)

 

this is amplified on units with worse bs, such as cultists 

[Vanger]

Well... looking at the prices... I could get 100 CSM for 1300 points. Give them heavy bolters and sprinkle a few lords here and there for those re-rolls. Gunline vs horde. A picture aout of the WH40K artbook.

 

On a more serious note, All these horde lists have the same idea: they flood the board with cheap bodies and provide a few characters to bolster them. If chaos follows the same idea, they get 162 or up to 2/3 the number of bodies, with better grunts which imo can even it out.

 

But honestly, skulls for the skull throne, let's see how they fare against a Maelstrom of Blood.

[Brother Aiwass]

Fielding a full company of bolter dudes with some hidden PF's doesn't look bad at all. Maybe MSU to avoid battleshock shenanigans?

 

But if you want the more elite feel, a couple squads of zerkers with axes, a DA for each one and a lord to taste packed in rhinos/LR/Spartan cannot go wrong.

 

Also, leviathans with dual grav excel at anti-everything. A unit of 30 guys is going to eat 11,6 S9 AP -4 hits on average, per gun. Which is 9,72 dead dudes (19,44 if you shoot with both weapons at the same unit).

 

Not convinced on flamers tho. The average wounds are nothing otherwordly (7,7 guards per 5 flamers if I did well).

[Lord Abaia]

I also think any savvy Ork player will make sure to charge big footslogging units containing flamers from 8.1" away negating any chance the flamer has to do work in overwatch or your own shooting phase. They get to reroll charges as a rule and two tries to get 8 or more isn't that big of a gamble.

 

I think flamers will work best on mobile units like Raptors, Rhino embarked units of Chosen, Havocs, or Rubrics, or on teleport/warp time Termies (or LR embarked if you feel like bringing lascannons to a choppa fight).

 

I think I'll try running a 4 flamer/ 1 combi-flamer Havoc unit in a combi-flamer rhino up to a blob, roasting it, and then charging it with the Rhino and a unit of 10 Raptors with Icon of Despair. Hopefully it will cause some morale losses. And if the Raptors survive long enough to stop the blob from charging my Havocs, my Raptors can fall back and I can walk up until I'm 3" away, roast them again with the Havocs, and either charge or try to bait them into charging me for some overwatch depending on their numbers.

 

I hope to find out if it works this weekend. It might work awesomely or it might fail tremendously.

[Ashe Darke]

The Death guard power where you roll a die for each model in the unit and each 6 is a mortal wound could be nasty.

 

Also I'd like to see how units like Poxwalkers when supported by Tyhpus and a lord does against hordes. Being able to get Poxwalkers back means it's more effort on behalf of the horde to finish them off and the longer they are in combat the more they will get worn down

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Anyone know how demolisher cannons work now? I used to use a pair of vindicators in my TS for anti hoarde/tank.

[Raven1]

Anyone know how demolisher cannons work now? I used to use a pair of vindicators in my TS for anti hoarde/tank.

D3 attacks S10 AP -3 D6 damage so against characters or MSU or multi wound squads great 20 W1 models awful.

 

Don't forget combi flamers. Chosen or Havocs flamers x4 with champion with combi flamer might put in some good work.

 

I think with cults its a bit more difficult because of the restricted list

Edited June 15, 2017 by Raven1

[Panzer]

It's golden against something like Crisis and 'Nid guards. Aka units that are something between infantry and MCs. Also of course great against anything above those, like actual MCs and vehicles. S10 really makes a difference compared to S8 and S9 in 8th and the 1d6 damage are really nice as well.

Alternatively you could see it as d3 better Lascannons with slightly worse AP.

[Lord Abaia]

Well vs a unit with >5 models a demolisher cannon makes d6 Heavy shots. The Vindicator doesn't have any way of mitigating the -1 to hit for moving, and with a 24" range you might have to move it unless you have some really great terrain setup to bring units within range so you will be hitting on a 4+ (until you start taking damage). And then it's S10 AP-3 d6 damage, so it's probably better suited for high toughness high wound models with good saves and not hordes.

[the jeske]

Chaos should be played horde style in 8th, mono csm or not. The whole edition ranks single wounds higher then T, and the multi wound causing weapons make single wound models more efficient then models with multiple wounds. Mono sm without FW can either go full melee with a mix of zerkers and csm[probably with the 5th 1 to 2 squad ratio], we sadly lack cheap rifle man dreads, but havocks or AC/RL dreads could work too. obligatory blanket of pox walkers or cultists  to push away deep strike units from our fire base. I seen BA tested as a wave army, and I think chaos could work the same [charging is crucial] first wave of suicide units [can be cultists can be csm, cultists are probably better, then a second line of units that are actualy ment to do the charging [like zerkers supported by HQs], with maybe a third line of finisher/chase/anti deep strike units like raptors hanging at the back, mostly used to finish stuff off or grab objectives.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

 

Anyone know how demolisher cannons work now? I used to use a pair of vindicators in my TS for anti hoarde/tank.

D3 attacks S10 AP -3 D6 damage so against characters or MSU or multi wound squads great 20 W1 models awful.

 

Don't forget combi flamers. Chosen or Havocs flamers x4 with champion with combi flamer might put in some good work.

 

I think with cults its a bit more difficult because of the restricted list

 

Ouch, that kind of sucks....

Well least I still have my Psychic powers, oh wait...

Has anyone had any luck with vindicators? not going to lie as much as I love mine I just can;t see them doing that well, or requiring a lord/daemon prince to babysit them/reroll there ones.

Depending on there rules, maybe a sicaran, scorpius or Deredro dread?

[Raven1]

I hadn't brought up FW but it could some good options. Won't know really until the books comes out tomorrow. Except the hellfordged leviathan is good against loke everything especially with the grav flux cannon. Though I wouldn't equip it both ranged guns just because it can regain wounds in close combat.

 

In the end I think the best anti horde is horde cultists/poxwalkers/tzaangors

Edited June 16, 2017 by Raven1

[Andrés Pacheco]

Flamers are a go-to that I will not ignore, even with something as pricey as a warp-flamer on a rubricae (33 pts!) you need to realize that statistically you are still getting at minimum 1 AUTOMATIC hit.  Theres a 33% chance you will get just as many STR 4, ap -2 hits as a bolter firing would.....and theres a 66% chance of getting MORE hits, which of course helps alot before combat is joined mid-table.

Warpflamers! I know they're faction specific, so not everyone will be able or want to take them, but they eat orks at an alarming rate. Warptime them into range and watch as 30 Boyz vanishes into a gaping rift in realspace, as an otherworldly avian screech boils the air where they stood.

 

Much cheaper and more widely available, how about 2 x 5 havocs with flamers in a rhino? Combi-flamers everywhere you can, still puts out some horde hurt for not too many points.

[Closet Skeleton]

Anyone know how demolisher cannons work now? I used to use a pair of vindicators in my TS for anti hoarde/tank.

 

Against T7 or less vehicles like most transports Rubric marines are the best anti-tank in a TS army. Against anything tougher its Magnus but for things like predators then harassing them with heldrakes is simpler than killing them.

[Prot]

Warpflamers and Tzaangors. (and no, that isn't the name of a fancy club on the Planet of Sorcerers.)

 

I actually like... believe it or not, Baledrakes. I think they are a great unit this edition because just like in the old codex they can rip into flyers, or do a giant T1 move, flame out some chaff, smash into it for Close Combat, then move away next turn without repercussion.

 

But I honestly have not played a horde style list yet. Maybe tonight I will.

[Dallas Drake]

These are my initial thoughts.

 

1. I think Cultists are an auto-include, my latest list I'm trying out this weekend has 3x20 at 1500 points & I'd like more. Yes, individually they're crap but with a Dark Apostle or a Lord buffing they can stick around and S3 can hurt T5 just as easy as T4 now. Cultists give us numbers, important for claiming objectives, and let us mitigate Deep Striking into our flanks/back line. They also give us dispossible troops we don't care much about. Against Nids I got Havocs and CSM sqauds shut down by assaults & the horrible consolidate into new combats via pile in (which Hormagaunts are scary at) and Cultists now let me shield my army (mainly Havocs) from this. Plus, Cultists falling back isn't a big loss, where as CSMs/Havocs etc is.

 

2. As for dealing with Hordes. Everyone else has it right IMO. I think combi-flamers are good as you can shoot the bolter when out of range then fire everything at BS4+ (which doesn't effect the flamer) when close in, being assault weapons too means you can advance and shoot which is handy. Personally, I think defeating hordes is where melee comes in, MSU Berserkers are just perfect for it, power weapon Chosen and maybe even Possessed too aren't 'bad'. I'm going down the Heavy Bolter route because I fancy keeping hordes at arms length. I'll see how that works out and take it from there I guess. I also think the Baledrake is a good pick, expensive but gives you lots of utility against a whole range of armies. I'd hate to go up against Flyers without at least 2 tbh.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

Just cracked open the new Imperial Armor- Hellforged Preds with flamestorm cannon/heavy flamer sponsons should be absolutely terrifying versus hordes.

[Raven1]

That's not bad and if you chaosify a Baal predator you can get in all plastic at a fraction of FW prices.