MSU vs Large Units in 8th

[Lord Abaia]

Question: Is a CSM army of MSU units functionally as good as a CSM army composed of large units? Better? Worse?

 

Here's some ideas I've come up with:

 

1) Now that character buffs are auras you can get the same benefit by bubble wrapping a Lord, Prince, or Dark Apostle in four 5-man squads as you with one 20-man squad.

 

2) 5-man CSM squads will only ever lose 1 model to morale and only then if you lose 4 models in one turn and roll a 6 (assuming you kept the Champion alive).

 

3) Large squads will benefit more from Sorcerers especially considering the rule of one.

 

4) The Icons will be more cost effective on larger units, but spammed Icons of Flame on 5-man squads has the potential to get silly. Still not worth it in matched play with points though, unless you're fighting pure Knights or something weird.

 

5) Even if they are all sticking within 6" of a buff character four 5-man squads can spread out further than one 20-man squad and deny more deep strike area.

 

6) With the exception of Pox Walkers I don't think we have any Heretic Astartes units that gain a bonus for having large units.

 

7) Champions are now a free upgrade and power weapons cost as much or less than our former Champion tax.

 

8) Two 5-man squads can now carpool in the same vehicle making mounted MSU not as inefficient.

 

9) Mo' detachments, mo' Command points.

 

10) Four 5-man squads forces the enemy to choose their targets more wisely in both shooting and CC compared to one 20-man squad or else risk losing shots or attacks to overkill.

 

11) A large unit charging into a 5-man unit and trying to pile in/ consolidate into other nearby small squads avoids a lot of overwatch, but can only attack the unit it charged for that turn. The units piled into will still be able to fight normally.

 

12) You will almost certainly go second with lots of min sized units.

 

13) RaW (for now) Raptors +1 morale rolls for enemies within 1" stacks.

 

I'm currently thinking a mix of both will be best depending on role. Deepstrike units hoping for same turn assault via Warp Time or Icon of Wrath will want to be bigger. Obviously Pox Walkers will want to be in big blobs. Everything else though I'm thinking min-sized.

 

I haven't put much thought into cultists though. I don't have any and don't have any imminent plans to get any. I've got Orks to scratch that itch.

[bozo69pd]

If you use psyker buffs you will want blobs. I think the DG blightcaster or whatever its called has a spell that helps footslogging.

[jgascoine011]

Min sized units is the way to go...no real reason not too.

 

You could take a 10 man plague marine unit with 3 plasma guns....or a 2 5 man units giving you 6 plasma guns and put them all in a rhino.

 

Also say you have a 10 man squad, and you loose 5 to shooing...well now you have to roll a 3 or less o 2D6 to not lose even more.

 

 

There are so situations where larger squads are better (Tactical squads for example...but even then you should always combat squad them) but in general, unless going for fluff reason, always take min sized units.

[bozo69pd]

I think I will make some sort of ensemble with Typhus, 200 cultists, 40 pox walkers, a blob of 20 PM, nurgle sorcerer support in TDA, 5 helbrutes, 1 renegade knight, and a plague reaper of nurgle.

[Zodd1888]

It depends on how you'd use the powers, or rather on what specifically.

 

I was pondering 4 squads of 5 with a Rhino, one squad with flamers. That's 4 mortal wounds minimum per turn, plus whatever other psychic punch you're bringing, and a flamer squad for to wipe horde units. If you perils and accidentally kill yourself with MSU it's no biggie, plus you have the potential to knock some enemy units surrounding you.

 

I'm thinking many mind bombs may be a decent way to get some coverage and do some damage. Grab some SCO for deepstrike and pick your poison for whatever else you want in the list (maybe Magnus?). Could be interesting!

[Extropian]

The correct number is of course 7. 

[Sception]

There's some advantage to larger squads in melee, in that they get to swing earlier.  If two squads of five CSMs (or chosen, or berzerkers, or possessed, or w/e) are fighting in combat, one swings, then the opponent gets to attack the other before it gets a chance to swing, potentially killing some and reducing the number of attacks they get to make.  Even if they charged in, command points can be used to the same effect.  If instead they were one squad of ten, then the whole squad of ten would get to swing as a single unit before the opponent could respond to blunt their attack.

[the jeske]

 

Question: Is a CSM army of MSU units functionally as good as a CSM army composed of large units? Better? Worse?

Everything msu? it is way worse. That does not mean though that you can't use some units in smaller/msu size. 6 havocks with 3 AC are ok. 5-7 Raptor units as mop up/counter charge 3ed wave unit for a swarm list do ok. First line 10 man pox or 10 man cultists units [but it is hardly msu when your runing 4x10 or more of them] are ok too.

 

But for deep strike push back you want 20 man pox/cultists squads. You want your csm/zerkers at 8-12 man size, if you want to go melee.

[Closet Skeleton]

5) Even if they are all sticking within 6" of a buff character four 5-man squads can spread out further than one 20-man squad and deny more deep strike area.

 

 

2 20 man units denies more area than 8 five man units. You also want to be using cultists and their marked equivalents for area denial because you can't shield your elite units with elite units.

 

10 man cultists have the advantage over 20 man units unless the 20 man ones literally spread out in a thin line.

[Panzer]

 

2 20 man units denies more area than 8 five man units. 

 

No.

8 five man units can spread out just as much as 2 20 man units. HOWEVER they don't have to stick as close to each other so you could easily set them 18" apart from eachother.

The enemy still won't be able to deep strike there without you having to have models placed in that empty space to keep unit coherency.

[Sception]

Fewer, larger units will cover more ground in the specific circumstance that you're trying to keep all the units within range of a buff aura, however.  For instance, cultists around an apostle or chaos marines around a lord.  To keep 8 five man squads within range of a lord, you must have 8 models within 6" of the lord, and no model gets to be more than 4 models of coherency worth further than that.  On the other hand, for 2 20 man squads, only 2 models need to be within 6" of the lord, and they can stretch 19 models worth of coherency away from him, enough to encircle a couple large vehicles deployed to either side of the lord, for instance.

 

If you're not concerned with trailing units into character buffing range, then yeah, more smaller units can cover, if anything, more terrain than fewer bigger ones, although...

 

another advantage of fewer bigger units is that you have greater freedom in choosing where the casualties come from.  Imagine a single unit of 20 models vs 4 units of 5 bubble wrapping a big target, like a knight or warhound or something, when a unit of chainfist & combi-weapon armed khornate terminators with an icon drops in, supported by a Termi Sorcerer with warp time.  Thanks to warp time and their Icon, they will probably have range to shoot & charge, despite the extra distance forced by your screen when they deploy.

 

If they shoot at your knight or whatever with their combi weapons, they'll damage it, but not critically.  If they charge in with those chain fists they'll rip it apart, but they can't charge through your screen.  In the case of several small units, the terminators can use their shooting attacks on the nearest part of the screen to clear just the models between them and their primary target, then charge through the gap.  But if they try that on the single big unit, you'll just pull the casualties from the far side of the screen, so the best the terminators can do is put a couple wounds on the big thing with their combi weapons then charge into your screen.

Edited June 16, 2017 by malisteen

[Dallas Drake]

MSU Berserkers, yes. I've seen lists running 5-8 squads in Rhinos all going full pelt at the enemy.

 

Otherwise I agree with Jeske. 5 man Havocs etc are okay. 5 man CSM with a cheap heavy weapon are alright objective campers too.

 

I personally think bigger units of less valuable models are better, more area denial and better at taking/contestng objectives.

[Brother Aiwass]

8 is the magic number of zerkers :P

 

I do plan on run 9+DA in a rhino tho.

[Cheex]

One big advantage in Matched play is getting to choose who goes first if you finish deploying first.

 

I don't know if it definitely outweighs MSU, but it's something to keep in mind.

[Heliomanes]

The Frontlinegaming guys who were playtesters actually suggest a single change to the rules for the tournaments they are going to arrange in the future: changing it from what it is now - the player with the lowest unit count goes first unless his opponent rolls a 6 - to giving him a +1 to the roll to go first instead. Shooty knight lists can reliably go first and shoot away lascannons and other threats early on. The same logic can be applied to other armies. Having few units and tailoring for a brutal alpha strike can let you target the primary threats early and give you a big advantage.

The other points are still valid though, there are definately pros and cons about all of the various approaches.

[the jeske]

Going first is kind of a crucial in any objectives game, because it lets you do objectives first, discard first, and get new ones first. I don't see people going first when runing multiple 8x10 cultists/pox units. Also conga buffing is easier with big units. If you have an aura that buffs a unit withing X" of a dude, 20 dudes can go a realy long way. Not saying it is going to happen offten, but you could have a dude buffing your fire base in your deployment and a unit of pox/cultists/csm snaking the whole deployment doing melee in your opponent deployment getting the buff too.