Ultima Founding Successors (Salamanders)

[Draakur]

I've done some searching but not come up with anything useful - if you find something concrete that would be amazing! Looking for actual quotes etc. if possible, the ones that are most suggestive of the Storm Giants being successors.

 

If it comes to it I'll just buy the book, but I'd rather not have to. This was all from Nocturne, yes?

Edited July 31, 2017 by Draakur

[Agatone]

Using word search, I went through the ebooks Salamander, Firedrake, Nocturne, and a few others by Kyme. I couldn't find any instance of Storm Giants being mentioned, or anything similar to what was described mentioning Black Dragons and Storm Giants. There was only mention of a Black Dragon inducted into the Salamanders.

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Agatone

[Draakur]

See, this is what I'd worried about ><

 

So often I've seen it mentioned that in the Salamanders books, there's something hinting at closer confirmation of certain Chapters being successors. Consistently, people seem unable to provide the actual quotes and proof of this and it just turns out to be untrue and somehow people just inferred it out of nothing.

 

I'm hoping that someone actually manages to find something here and somehow your search parameters missed something, but that sounds fairly conclusive to me.

 

Thanks for your effort doing that Agatone. Not what I'd hoped for but I really appreciate your time and effort.

[Jagus Kumkani]

I'm going to my storage unit tomorrow. I'll pull those books out and find what you're looking for. I remember Nihilan saying that in the book.

[ruralguardhipcat]

The new Space Marine codex specifically says that "similarities in the physique, marking and tactical dogman of several other Chapters, such as the Black Dragons and Storm Giants, make it seem likely" that subsequent chapters have been created with Salamander geneseed.

 

Later, the Fire Lords are noted for "strange flame craft ... which many find reminiscent of the Salamanders".

 

 

Pages 46 and 58 in the English print version.

 

As a Salamander collector with a big force, I like the idea of being able to add a unit or two from potential successors, without it being 100% confirmed that they are successors. Leaves space to forge your own narrative.

[blackoption]

Side note:  I thought the Fire lords were a successor of Dorn.  In the book 'Legion of the Damned'  they sent a participate to the feast of blades tournament.  Their chaplain had replaces all his teeth with flint and (literally) spat fire during his duel.   At least, I think it was the fire lords.

[Draakur]

The Fire Lords have always been confirmed as Dorn successors, yes. Their lineage has never been presented as being conjecture or uncertain in any way that I'm aware of, until this observation of their practices being reminiscent of some of the Salamanders'. Edited August 2, 2017 by Draakur

[ruralguardhipcat]

I suppose they can be reminiscent of the Salamanders while being descended from another chapter. There is no suggestion / hint of a link to the Imperial Fists, however.

[Draakur]

By that you mean it is in no way uncertain and is very clear, yes?

[ruralguardhipcat]

Interesting that the Fire Lords have been previously presented as Fists successors. They are are listed in the new Codex in the Unknown Founding section, alongside people like the Blood Ravens.

[Draakur]

Oh, seriously? That's quite a change! They've never been presented as anything else before, and as has been mentioned, they attend the Feast of Blades... ain't nobody whose lineage is murky or uncertain getting in there, that gig is strictly confirmed Dorn boys only.

 

How interesting!

[Checkmate]

Actually the Fire Lords have been listed as an unknown founding since at least 6th ed. I wasn't able to find anything regarding their origins in the 5th ed. codex either.

According to the Lexicanum the only source that indicates they're a Imp. Fist successor is a novel about the LotD.

[Ogun]

From what has been said by GW there is definitely going to be at least one Salamander's Ultima Founding chapter. Even the Wolves now have a successor according to the Dark Imperium novel. Its not clear yet though if Cawl produced equal numbers of Primaris marines for each blood line. Guilliman establishes 9 new Primaris chapters in Ultramar alone at the end of the Indomitus Crusade, so its possible that there could be 10 or more Salamander foundings, if they were created in equal numbers. Frankly I would love it if there were!

 

I seem to recall that the Black Dragons are pretty much confirmed as Salamander successors. Vulkan He'stan pretty much says as much in Firedrake when they find Zartath. There are Storm Giants in the Dragon Warriors warband. While I don't recall a cast iron confirmation of their heritage, I think Kyme is pretty much implying that they are a Salamander successor. 

My pet theory about why the Salamander's aren't entirely certain about the Storm Giants is that they might have been founded by a now extinct successor. There is no good lore reason yet why more Salamander's successors could not have been created by the High Lords over 10,000 years, their gene seed is stable. Un-tempered by the Promethean cult however, some of these might have inherited the self-destructive tendencies of the pre-Vulkan legion, or just been plain old unlucky. The Storm Giants might have been founded from one of these. 

[Draakur]

Didn't realise this - good to know, Checkmate!

 

Any news on the information from the books, BreezyLamar?

Edited August 6, 2017 by Draakur

[Jagus Kumkani]

Didn't realise this - good to know, Checkmate!

 

Any news on the information from the books, BreezyLamar?

@Draakur: So I went through my books.

 

"Firedrake" book II in the Tome of Fire

On page 63 this is what is said by Nihilian.

 

"We may come from different heritage, the Chapters that spurned us, that constricted and took our love and loyalty for granted. Storm Giant, Black Dragon, Iron Warrior, Marine Malevolent...' He paused before the last of the names, spitting it out as if it left a canker in his mouth. '...Salamander. These honorifics mean nothing to us. Now we are one. Dragon Warriors, all."

 

Nihilian is basically giving us confirmation that Storm Giants and Black Dragons are indeed successors of the Salamanders. Even at that gentlemen, that fact that Nihilian a former Salamander, is talking about the Storm Giants and Black Dragons in a Salamanders book at all says all we need to know.

 

Also, the Black Dragons are very much apart of the story in the Tome of Fire Trilogy. This is no coincidence. This ingrained aspect of the Black Dragons in these stories is deliberate. We're being told who these Chapters truly belong to.

[Xisor]

Given that Salamanders like alone time, and helping out, recall that they might be the go-to people for training/shepherding difficult Successors. E.g. being the permanently seconded senior officers of Chapters whose view on legacy/independence isn't in line with the "enlightened" Imperial dogma (specifically looking at Space Wolves, Iron Hands and Dark Angels).

 

It also does some good service at diminishing the pernicious fascination we all have with bloodlines and authenticity. Of a Salamander was your first Chapter Master, Scout Company Captain and all your Scout Sergeants, then you're a Salamanders successor. You might not have Vulkan's genetic legacy, or perhaps inherited some difficult traits off your genetic forebears, but *functionally* you're absolutely a Salamanders successor.

 

I'd love to see that sort of thing reinforced in the lore. Everyone obsessed about purity and lineage, but it's dangerous nonsense - the Salamanders can and should be bringing the enlightenment. (Well, they're salamanders, so it's probably closer to an enkindlement, a much hotter, burning fire than a mere warm glow of illumination...)

 

As such, I think I'd lean towards that: some Salamanders vets overseeing a Primaris Chapter, but otherwise be A N Other where Geneseed is concerned. (E.g. known to be *not* Vulkan's, but the specifics not necessarily relevant.)

[Kelborn]

Since I saw this thread and read the respective part in the new C:SM about the Salamanders, I'm tempted to include a Salamander Primaris force in my current Black Templar crusade.

 

The crusade's goal is to reclaim the Dominion of Storms, a region within Segmentum Ultima, which became my overall project. Those BTs are accompanied by a force of Primaris, some being scions of Dorn and some of unknown origin. While the BTs and the IF Primaris are hurrying to reconquer the entirety of the Dominion, said other Primaris want to consolidate their situation, leading to compromise.

 

In the end, the IF Primaris are absorbed and become Black Templars themselves, while the other Primaris force is heavily influenced by the BT's zeal, combat doctrine and so on. When they seperate in order to spread their forces, it is revealed that those Primaris are sons of Vulkan, becoming a new chapter by themselves. This way, I could implement a Primaris concept I've written down when I heard about the Ultima Founding for the first time: the Black Panthers (name wouldn't fit anymore, thus I'd have to change it).

 

A chapter which is basing upon western African tribes and Caribbean voodoo (and to some degree Marvel's Black Panther) and emphasizes on infiltrators (scouts and Reivers) and fast & massive assaults (BT influence, fast & flexible units like Tactical squads, Intercessors, Inceptors and Aggressors), supported by heavy fire (Dreadnaughts, tanks, etc.) Although they were heavily influenced by the Black Templars, they still cling on the teachings of Nocturne about self-sacrifice, caretaking, etc. Maybe they even tame deadly predators from their homeworld to accompany their scouts and infiltrators. Their skin color would be (of course) black but not because of radiation. Rather because of the population of their homeworld. So no demon looking & kind monsters, except they're clad in full armor.

 

Appearance: Black with either decent silver or bone-white details & accents; pelts instead of scales

 

This way, I got the background for two Liber Astartes articles and expand upon my Dominion project and its 8th edition version.

 

What do you think?

 

Kelborn

Edited August 8, 2017 by Kelborn

[Jagus Kumkani]

Since I saw this thread and read the respective part in the new C:SM about the Salamanders, I'm tempted to include a Salamander Primaris force in my current Black Templar crusade.

 

The crusade's goal is to reclaim the Dominion of Storms, a region within Segmentum Ultima, which became my overall project. Those BTs are accompanied by a force of Primaris, some being scions of Dorn and some of unknown origin. While the BTs and the IF Primaris are hurrying to reconquer the entirety of the Dominion, said other Primaris want to consolidate their situation, leading to compromise.

 

In the end, the IF Primaris are absorbed and become Black Templars themselves, while the other Primaris force is heavily influenced by the BT's zeal, combat doctrine and so on. When they seperate in order to spread their forces, it is revealed that those Primaris are sons of Vulkan, becoming a new chapter by themselves. This way, I could implement a Primaris concept I've written down when I heard about the Ultima Founding for the first time: the Black Panthers (name wouldn't fit anymore, thus I'd have to change it).

 

A chapter which is basing upon western African tribes and Caribbean voodoo (and to some degree Marvel's Black Panther) and emphasizes on infiltrators (scouts and Reivers) and fast & massive assaults (BT influence, fast & flexible units like Tactical squads, Intercessors, Inceptors and Aggressors), supported by heavy fire (Dreadnaughts, tanks, etc.) Although they were heavily influenced by the Black Templars, they still cling on the teachings of Nocturne about self-sacrifice, caretaking, etc. Maybe they even tame deadly predators from their homeworld to accompany their scouts and infiltrators. Their skin color would be (of course) black but not because of radiation. Rather because of the population of their homeworld. So no demon looking & kind monsters, except they're clad in full armor.

 

Appearance: Black with either decent silver or bone-white details & accents; pelts instead of scales

 

This way, I got the background for two Liber Astartes articles and expand upon my Dominion project and its 8th edition version.

 

What do you think?

 

Kelborn

 

I think it sounds good. The Nocturneans are swarthy in their complexion as it is. The theme for your successor fits as well. You cound base them off of the Mali Warriors, or the Zulu. The Zulu are ferocious close combat fighters. But anyhow, I like it, I'm interested to see what you've come up with. Keep my posted will ya?

[Kelborn]

Thank you.

 

Yes, I'll keep you posted. Will take some time thought as my to do list looks like this:

 

- update the overall fluff of the Dominion to 8th edition

- write down the Tempestus Crusade (Black Templar LA article), introducing the Salamander Primaris

- create the Salamander Primaris article

 

in between:

- write some fanfiction due to the Liber thought experiment campaign

 

;)

[Draakur]

 

 

Didn't realise this - good to know, Checkmate!

 

Any news on the information from the books, BreezyLamar?

@Draakur: So I went through my books.

 

"Firedrake" book II in the Tome of Fire

On page 63 this is what is said by Nihilian.

 

"We may come from different heritage, the Chapters that spurned us, that constricted and took our love and loyalty for granted. Storm Giant, Black Dragon, Iron Warrior, Marine Malevolent...' He paused before the last of the names, spitting it out as if it left a canker in his mouth. '...Salamander. These honorifics mean nothing to us. Now we are one. Dragon Warriors, all."

 

Nihilian is basically giving us confirmation that Storm Giants and Black Dragons are indeed successors of the Salamanders. Even at that gentlemen, that fact that Nihilian a former Salamander, is talking about the Storm Giants and Black Dragons in a Salamanders book at all says all we need to know.

 

Also, the Black Dragons are very much apart of the story in the Tome of Fire Trilogy. This is no coincidence. This ingrained aspect of the Black Dragons in these stories is deliberate. We're being told who these Chapters truly belong to.

Really appreciate the effort here :) To take time out of your day to do something like this for what is essentially just a random name amongst a sea of names on the internet is a genuine act of good will and kindness for our community here - cheers man :)

 

I'm not sure I read the actual text itself the same as you do - I'm not seeing any of the subtext that you're seeing in Nihilian's quote, in terms of a suggestion that they share a heritage. To me it reads like he's basically suggesting the opposite, in fact - that despite bring from very DIFFERENT backgrounds, their shared hatred for the Salamanders unites them, isn't he?

 

The point that it seems pretty coincidental that we just happen to be seeing suggested potential Sally successors in a Sally novel, however, I think is quite valid, the more I think about it. They seem to just keep on showing up in this sort of context... it's more than fair to assume that this is a sign, agreed :)

[Jagus Kumkani]

 

 

Didn't realise this - good to know, Checkmate!

 

Any news on the information from the books, BreezyLamar?

@Draakur: So I went through my books.

 

"Firedrake" book II in the Tome of Fire

On page 63 this is what is said by Nihilian.

 

"We may come from different heritage, the Chapters that spurned us, that constricted and took our love and loyalty for granted. Storm Giant, Black Dragon, Iron Warrior, Marine Malevolent...' He paused before the last of the names, spitting it out as if it left a canker in his mouth. '...Salamander. These honorifics mean nothing to us. Now we are one. Dragon Warriors, all."

 

Nihilian is basically giving us confirmation that Storm Giants and Black Dragons are indeed successors of the Salamanders. Even at that gentlemen, that fact that Nihilian a former Salamander, is talking about the Storm Giants and Black Dragons in a Salamanders book at all says all we need to know.

 

Also, the Black Dragons are very much apart of the story in the Tome of Fire Trilogy. This is no coincidence. This ingrained aspect of the Black Dragons in these stories is deliberate. We're being told who these Chapters truly belong to.

Really appreciate the effort here To take time out of your day to do something like this for what is essentially just a random name amongst a sea of names on the internet is a genuine act of good will and kindness for our community here - cheers man

 

I'm not sure I read the actual text itself the same as you do - I'm not seeing any of the subtext that you're seeing in Nihilian's quote, in terms of a suggestion that they share a heritage. To me it reads like he's basically suggesting the opposite, in fact - that despite bring from very DIFFERENT backgrounds, their shared hatred for the Salamanders unites them, isn't he?

 

The point that it seems pretty coincidental that we just happen to be seeing suggested potential Sally successors in a Sally novel, however, I think is quite valid, the more I think about it. They seem to just keep on showing up in this sort of context... it's more than fair to assume that this is a sign, agreed

 

No problem, I wanted to look through them again myself to make sure what I was saying was correct.

But yes, they all possess a shared hatred for the Salamanders, but the fact that he mentions the Storm Giants at all, the fact that the Storm Giants are even in his company says something. I mean its not plainly obvious but I'm reading through the lines in what he's really saying.

 

Plus the physiology of the Storm Giants are identical to the Salamanders. I think its safe to say they are indeed Salamanders successors. Granted, we haven't had confirmation from GW. Kyme gaves us Salamanders fans what we really wanted to know I think.

 

In the next 6 months to a year, I believe we're gonna be getting a bunch of Salamanders successors from GW. Its inevitable...10,000 is a long time to not have more than two successors.

[Draakur]

Yeh ok. Much appreciated anyway :)

 

I know they're mentioned as being bigger and heavier set than the average Astartes - are the Storm Giants described as also being ebon skinned and with fiery eyes etc? I'd heavily doubt it of course but realised Ive never asked this of the people who own these books!

[Ogun]

Yeh ok. Much appreciated anyway

 

I know they're mentioned as being bigger and heavier set than the average Astartes - are the Storm Giants described as also being ebon skinned and with fiery eyes etc? I'd heavily doubt it of course but realised Ive never asked this of the people who own these books!

 

I don't think the books ever specify which of the Dragon Warriors was a former Storm Giant sadly, and some of them are so mutated that it would be hard to say anyway. I think those features would only emerge if they spent prolonged periods in high radiation. The Black Dragons definitely don't appear to possess it, but then their gene seed was fiddled with, so they are a little iffy as a reliable example of non-Nocturne born Salamanders.

 

Nihilan's chief henchman in Nocturne, Ghor'gun (I think that was his name, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong!), is never implied to be a Salamander, but his uncanny ability to heal from unquestionably fatal wounds makes me wonder if he could be a Storm Giant. When Nocturne first came out that ability just seemed like the result of a Chaos mutation, but the release of Vulkan Lives put a rather different spin on matters.... I rather like the idea that the Storm Giants could be more prone to Vulkan's perpetual mutation, it would create some interesting narrative potential. 

[Xisor]

I was vaguely fond of the idea that the Storm Giants were one of the early Primaris Marine Chapters, albeit one deployed on field trials, perhaps amongst the earliest trialled in public. E.g. they were literally 'giants' ("big, even for a space Marine"). Perhaps in adapted earlier marks of armour & boltgun too.

 

So when they turn up being all Primaris, nobody batted an eyelid, because... as far as anyone else knew, they were just unusually big Space Marines!

 

And, being Salamanders successors, nobody would be too surprised that they'd extensively adapted equipment either.

 

Perhaps even the Salamanders didn't know about their Primaris element.

 

----

 

A little headcanon for you there.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Xisor

[Draakur]

Some very interesting thoughts here :)