Re-rolls and modifiers

[Kobrakei]

Bit of an odd one this. I've posted it on the Warhammer 40000 Facebook page, but wanted to see what people thought

 

I'll use the example of an Interrogator Chaplain. He has a unit of Deathwing Terminators with power fists next to him, who are fighting in the fight phase.They roll 3's to hit with the fists, which means they miss due to the -1 on the to hit roll modifier on the fist. The Chaplain lets them re-roll all failed to hit rolls. However, as re-rolls are supposed to occur before modifiers as per the designer's notes, they've technically hit as they have rolled a 3+ which is their weapon skill. So can they re-roll, seeing as the modiifer hasn't been applied at the time the re-roll is supposed to take place?

Edited June 18, 2017 by Kobrakei

[Eddie Orlock]

...So can they re-roll, seeing as the modifier hasn't been applied at the time the re-roll is supposed to take place?

Your own citation provides strong guidance on this.

... However, as re-rolls are supposed to occur before modifiers as per the designer's notes, they've technically hit as they have rolled a 3+ which is their weapon skill. ...

At the time you check for re-roll eligibility the three you rolled is a successful hit which means it fails to fulfill the requirements to invoke Litanies of Hate.

[Kobrakei]

Yeah, that's how my gaming group saw it too as well as myself. I think that's one that slipped through the playtesting! 

[Seahawk]

Rerolls before modifiers. This is clear as day in the rulebook, and it's what the designers intended, shared via their FAQ/dev guide.

[Kobrakei]

I guess that makes Litanies only slightly less good! Cheers chaps :)

[Elios Harg]

That is how we have been playing it. This needs clarifying specifically, however. If you take the Resolve Attacks Rules, the Re-rolls side bar, and any "re-roll failed hit rolls" rule together, they basically break the game if played RAW.

 

The normal order of operations for resolving attacks would be (this applies to any re-roll not contingent on success/failure):

 

1a. Roll to Hit                                                                                            | Roll a die

 

1b. Re-roll (let's say 1s for this as used in the designer commentary)     | If die roll meets conditions for re-roll, then re-roll it

 

1c. Apply modifiers after re-roll                                                                 | Add or subtract any modifiers to the die roll

 

1d. Compare to ballistic skill or weapon skill as appropriate to                | If (Roll + modifiers) >= Skill characteristic then roll to wound

      determine success.

 

How many have been playing it for re-roll failed hit rolls is this:

 

1a. Roll to Hit                                                                                            | Roll a die

 

1b. Determine success/failure                                                                  | If Roll >= Skill then success, else fail

 

1c. Re-rolls                                                                                               | If condition for re-roll is met, then re-roll die

 

1d. Apply modifiers                                                                                   |  As before

 

1e. Determine success/failure (again)                                                      | As before

 

However, after thinking of this logically as if I were writing a computer program, I am starting to think it should actually be this:

 

1a. Roll to hit: Roll a die

 

1b. Re-rolls: Check if re-roll conditions are met, if true, then re-roll die (let's break this down)

 

       (To check if re-roll conditions are met for a rule that re-rolls only failed hit rolls (or wound rolls) you have to complete the process for THAT die. Remember, each die is                               technically its own resolve attack process, we are just using the "fast rolling rule" to roll multiple attacks together. This means that:)

       1b1) Apply modifiers

       1b2) Compare to skill to determine success failure (this is the absolute only point at which we are permitted to determine success/failure of a die roll according to the rules. That is:                  AFTER applying modifiers, otherwise, if at any point before applying modifiers I call a hit roll a success, I am free to move to rolling to wound with that die)

       1b3) If roll + modifiers < skill, then return true (the roll has failed and met the re-roll condition)

 

       Note: here we are not actually resolving the attack, we are only seeing if the die can be re-rolled, if it cannot, then we return false, which will deny the re-roll and move along in the                      process

        

1c. Apply modifiers

 

1d. Compare to skill for success/failure                

 

 

I am perfectly ok with GW deciding to alter the rules in a future FAQ and determine that we compare the natural die roll to BS/WS before re-rolling. This is not the same as a re-roll of failed to hit rolls though, strictly speaking. Determining a failed re-roll, necessarily requires that we apply modifiers to determine if it is successful or not. 

 

If I were GW, I would simply issue an errata that re-rolls that trigger on a die roll result (1, 6, etc.) are resolved before modifiers and all others are resolved when they meet their conditions such as when a hit roll or wound roll is failed.  That or just change any instance of "failed <type> rolls" to "any <type> rolls." However, the latter would have the added consequence of allowing re-rolls of successes. Either of these changes plays much nicer with their existing rules.

[Acebaur]

GW has already confirmed how it works.

 

You roll to hit with your Heavy bolter, you roll a 2, 3, and a 6

 

The 6 is a hit and so is the 3.

 

You have a chapter master nearby that grants you a re-roll. So you can only re-roll the 2. You roll a 4

 

BUT! You moved, so you must now take a -1 which means you rolled a 2, 3 an 5.

 

Is it weird? Yes, but there are so many re-rolls out there now that I think they did this to make it so it would balance out.

[Elios Harg]

Their question and answer in the designer's commentary specifically addressed re-rolls on a specific number:

 

"Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or after applying modifiers to the hit rolls? A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll ability is triggered before applying modifiers." (italics mine) (p. 1)

 

This does not address "re-roll failed hit rolls" at all except to reinforce that re-rolls happen before modifiers which is exactly what causes the problem. The intent of the re-roll before modifiers rule is, I'm fairly certain, to prevent -1 to hit to give you re-rolls on 1s and 2s (since no die roll may be modified below 1). I believe they wrote the rule with that in mind without considering the consequences of rules that re-roll failed to hit rolls (or other similarly triggered re-rolls). For example, I am unaware of any rule that allows re-rolled armor saves right now, however, if there are any, it would be almost useless versus anything with decent ap that still permits a save. However, I may be wrong and perhaps it is their intent to make "re-roll failed x rolls" rules far worse than they used to be. Regardless of the intent, the rule is broken as written as we are not told by the rules to check for success/failure until after we apply modifiers to determine success/failure any sooner in the process means I would get to start rolling to wound  and we would skip the apply modifiers phase altogether as I've already "scored a hit" by the rules, if it didn't score a hit, then I would get to re-roll because the result is binary, it succeeds and scores a hit or if fails and the attack ends (unless you have a re-roll). 

[Gentlemanloser]

It addresses all rerolls. The on a 1 was an example only.

 

Not the only type that was answered.

 

All types of rerolls work the same way.

[Grandmaster damion]

Gentlemamloser I agree they have given an answer to all rerolls but in doing so they have made one type unusable if there are any modifiers in play as it makes it so you check if you can reroll after the point that you can reroll.

 

I hope that makes sense.  Basically as you check success after modifiers any rerolls that are triggered by success/failure cannot be used as you rerolls before the modifiers that have just given you the success/failure.

 

Or have I missed something? 

[Gentlemanloser]

They're not unusable.  We're told exactly how they work.

 

If you ignore Saves atm (as they aren't any reroll failed saves yet, although I'm unsure how Fortune works now), we're told in the core rules that to check to-hit/to-wound you simply roll 1d6 and compare it to the stat.

 

Modifiers are only mentioned there for natural 1's.

 

So we roll, if the natural roll is lower than the stat, we fail and can reroll.

 

Then we apply all other modifers and have the final result.

 

It might feel wrong, but the core rules still work.

 

 

There is an argument that due to the wording of the saving throw section (which includes AP as a modifier to the roll), Pass/Fail rerolls can't work for saving throws.

 

Luckily there aren't any, so the core rules are safe.  For now. ;)

[Ganders]

I have to say this thread and the larger similar one make my head hurt.

 

I've been watching all the miniwargaming battle reports for 8th and I've never seen any of this come up. They just seem to roll after taking into account modifiers (i.e. tank popped smoke so -1 to hit, so a 4+ needed rather than a 3+). The way its being described here seems massively complicated for an edition than was meant to simplify and speed the game up.

 

I'm not saying miniwargaming are more correct than anyone else but they seem to have playtested the hell out of it and ive never seen this mentioned in the videos or in the comments (and comments aren't slow to point out any minor infraction).

[Seahawk]

Just because a group does it wrong, doesn't make it right. ;)

[Grandmaster damion]

Right got it.

 

So we roll and check results against stats.

 

Then reroll any eligible die.

 

Then apply modifiers to all rolled die and recheck against stats.

 

Any die meeting the required number hit.

 

Cool makes sense think edition lag was causing me to over complicate

[Quixus]

So a modifier is a value you add or subtract from a die roll, right? Now explain to me how ATSKNF is supposed to ever work?

 

Supposedly you are allowed to reroll failed morale tests, right? But you have to check whether the roll is failed before applying modifiers. The number of wounds caused by the opponent is a modifier, so you compare the result of a d6 to your leadership (which always is 6 or higher) meaning, before modifiers the roll cannot be failed. But after modifiers, which is what counts, they can be failed. So in conclusion ATSKNF does nothing. I doubt that is intentional.

 

Am I misreading something?

[Gentlemanloser]

Moral rolls as base before modifiers are x + 1d6.

 

Where x is models lost.

 

This is not a modifier. This is the basic roll.

 

Unless we think psychic rolls are allways modified. As they are 1d6 plus 1d6.

 

The core rules tell us 2d6 is just 1d6 added to 1d6.

 

So that must be a modifier as well.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Quixus]

How is

To take a Morale test, roll a dice and add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn.

different from

If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceding Movement phase, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn.

?

 

Both instruct us to first roll a d6 and then modify the result by a number.

 

I am not aware that modifiers can be variable, but yes, 2 d6 is one roll modified by another.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Quixus

[Gentlemanloser]

So all psychic tests are modified? As they are 1d6 modified by another 1d6.

 

You know that's not correct. ;)

 

You have a base/core/unmodified roll.

 

This can be 1d6, 2d6 or 1d6+x.

 

Anything that changes these rolls modifies them.

[Quixus]

I cannot find an unmodified roll defined as d6+X. Nor do they say whether modifiers only apply to characteristics. If you can find them please show me, It would make the game a lot less dysfunctional.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not defined explicitly. Not a lot in 8th is.

 

But we know its the unmodified roll as it's the base roll as presented. Much like to hit unmodified is 1d6.

 

Do you want to claim that psychic rolls, including deny the witch rolls are always modified.

 

As 2d6 by the core rules is defined as 1d6 plus 1d6. Which would be 1d6 modified by another 1d6.

[Quixus]

But we know its the unmodified roll as it's the base roll as presented. Much like to hit unmodified is 1d6.

There is no indication that 1d6+x is considered unmodified. The rule states that you roll the die and then add the number of models slain. To me this addition sounds like modifying the roll of the die.

 

If you are rolling multiple dice, such as for a psychic test, you do not modify one die roll with another one, you are instructed to roll all of them at the same time

Some rules refer to 2D6, 3D6 and so on – in such cases, roll that many D6s and add the results together.

[Gentlemanloser]

What's your definition of 'modify'?

 

To add to a dice roll?

 

Adding two d6 together is simply adding 1d6 to 1d6.  Which is adding a variable to the roll of 1d6.  Which is what a Moral Test is.  Adding a variable x (number of models slain) to the roll of 1d6

 

Either these are both modified rolls, or neither are.

[Quixus]

You'd have a point that the second d6 could be a modifier to the first, if the rules didn't say that you roll both dice and then make the total. The Morale roll however is a single d6 to which a variable number is added. The roll thus is modified.

[Gentlemanloser]

How do you make the total (For the Psychic rolls)?

 

By adding a variable to the result of a d6.

 

Doesn't matter that you roll them at the same time.  One result is added to the other.

[Quixus]

Ok then both rolls are modified, it does not change the fact that the number of slain models modifies the dice roll of the morale test. The rules make no distinction between optional or mandatory modifiers, so yes, the decision whether a re-roll is allowed has to be done before applying the number of slain models, which means as written ATSKNF does not work at all.