Seth seems Brutal

[Bronze Katana]

Hi all!

 

My first 'New Topic' in B & C. Looks to be a great forum (long time random lurker), and I'll try and add my bit.

 

I was wondering how people feel about Gabriel Seth. I'm currently working on a too large Flesh Tearers army, and haven't played any 8th edition yet. Getting back into the hobby since 5th, actually, so I'm a little rusty.

 

On paper, to me, Seth looks like a brutal blood spatter forensic expert's dream. Or possibly nightmare.

He's cheap for a HQ, he has a 6" 're-roll to hit' aura, and his Whirlwind of Gore special ability might actually be reasonable (if unreliable) as it can go off on both player's turns.

 

Not sure how survivable he is, although 6 wounds and 4++ isn't anything to sneeze at I guess.

 

Thoughts?

 

EDIT:

I'm aware there is currently another thread discussing Seth's keywords just a couple down the page, however I thought it would be nice to talk specifically about 8th edition tactics. If this is considered a duplicate, someone please remove :)

Edited June 20, 2017 by Bronze Katana

[sebs_evo7]

What delivery system do you have in mind? I had a thought the other day. Is there any reason you couldn't paint up a unit of whatever as flesh tearers, load them into your FT crusader with Seth and still run them in your BA army?

Obviously none of the buffs would carry over from the BA characters and vice versa but if you can include random imperium units in your detachment i don't see why not

[Bronze Katana]

What delivery system do you have in mind? I had a thought the other day. Is there any reason you couldn't paint up a unit of whatever as flesh tearers, load them into your FT crusader with Seth and still run them in your BA army?

Obviously none of the buffs would carry over from the BA characters and vice versa but if you can include random imperium units in your detachment i don't see why not

 

I'll probably go with one of my two previously trusted delivery systems;

 

• In a Landraider Redeemer with max seats filled (previously Tactical, now who knows) and Sanguinary priest
• In a drop pod, with a 4 heavy bolter devastator squad, and a tactical squad in another drop pod and priest.

Either way, there will be Razorbacks zooming up in support. All of the above is to utilise his re-rolls, to maximise shooting on the turn they land. Everything likely in minimum sized squads, for board control benefits and more 'Whirlwind of Gore' rolls when they all get stuck in. 

 

It's probably better to use other heavy weapons on the devastator squad, however these are Flesh Tearers. Even if Seth orders them to embark on the drop pod with lascannons, they'll be disembarking with heavy bolters

Redeemer doesn't have as much benefit from Seth as other landraiders, however I love the model and already own it so...

 

As for Seth in a Crusader? That's a lot of excellent re-rolls. Could be worthwhile running these as a small 'detachment' fighting alongside the Blood Angels. Pretty fluffy too.

 

EDIT: Might be worth taking a second devastator squad with 4 heavy flamers in the same drop pod. Seeing as you can now. Sure, they can't shoot the turn they arrive, but they might be a good counter charge deterrent. And then there's turn two... Ok, not that great an idea. Would look cool though.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Bronze Katana

[Arkhanist]

Heavy flamer dev's in a transport though, I think they're going to wreck face. Auto-hit after moving is an under-rated buff I think. Mine'll be in a razorback or a full squad in a rhino. Roll up 1st turn and blow smoke (if rhino); disembark 2nd turn 3" from transport, move 6", 8" range - anything less than 17" from the transport gets 4D6 S5 hits, plus the sgt combi, plus bolters or razorback assist. Bubble wrap should be nicely wrecked, or medium troops weakened; the transports charge in an soak up overwatch, then the CC troops get stuck in on the juicy targets. Seth'd be best in a stormraven or landraider I think. Charge from deep strike is tough now, so you'd need to drop em in turn 1 and soak up a turn of fire.

 

Mechanised assault, with some coming out the transports (and softening up the line with short range firepower) and JP troops moving up hiding behind the rhinos/cover and then flying into a non-LOS charge (so hopefully no overwatch) will be glorious I think.

[Charlo]

Once I get around to converting a Seth he'll be running exclusively with some assault terminators and a Sanguinary Priest in my Caestus.

 

*BLOOD REAVER REVS LOUDLY*

[Father Mapple]

Seth in a Crusader with lightning class terminators and a priest is something I am painting towards. His rerolls to hit, added with the claws' rerolls to wound, means even higher toughness stuff that is T9 is wounded by 48% of the attacks by the terminators, but T5 and lower means you're chewing through them.

[Kaughnor]

I run Seth with a librarian, priest, company ancient and 5 company vets with plasma pistols in a rhino. On one side of rhino is another rhino with 2 min tac squads with melta guns. On other side of rhino is ten death company in a rhino. It worked really well for me in my last game. Rhinos advance then pop smoke. Turn two seth and company are deployed with buffs for everyone.

[Bronze Katana]

Once I get around to converting a Seth he'll be running exclusively with some assault terminators and a Sanguinary Priest in my Caestus.

 

*BLOOD REAVER REVS LOUDLY*

 

I notice people often like to convert Seth. Do people not like the standard mini?

[sebs_evo7]

I like the standard mini

Got a friend who does commissions to paint him up for me

[Charlo]

 

Once I get around to converting a Seth he'll be running exclusively with some assault terminators and a Sanguinary Priest in my Caestus.

 

*BLOOD REAVER REVS LOUDLY*

 

I notice people often like to convert Seth. Do people not like the standard mini?

 

Really dislike his face, personally!

 

I also run my own successor so I like to have my own Chapter's versions of the special characters. "Seth" is basically the Chapter Champion for the Sanguine Vision.

[Father Mapple]

It was impossible to convert him easily before the new assault squad set as there weren't any power armor eviscerators. It was always stacking multiple chainsword blades to varying levels of success.

 

But how rules also weren't great in 5th edition where he didn't have a power weapon, or 6th and 7th where this huge eviscerator swor,d which was AP1 in a sisters army, was AP4 for some reason meaning power armor got their full save. With the new AP system, it's a AP-1 thinner hammer, which is pretty good compared to other power weapons since it has 3 damage.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Father Mapple

[H311fi5h]

This may sound like heresy, but bare with me for a second.

Gabriel Seth is just 135 points. He provides a 6" re-roll to hit bubble. You could have him just hang out next to a bunch of Predators, Razorbacks, Devastators etc. to boost their firepower, and be a counter assault unit. Have a Chaplain with Jump Pack buff the assault elements, while Seth provides a solid base of fire.

Edited June 21, 2017 by H311fi5h

[Thoridon]

It might come as a surprise but I did a quick chart to look at his melee...

 

http://i.imgur.com/rRzBr95.jpg

 

I compared him to Dante and a generic Captain with 2 different weapons to get an idea of his individual combat prowess (so this chart doesn't factor in ranged weaponry or how they buff other units).

 

vs Horde

Seth is about the same as a typical Captain here, very slightly lower. Dante is obviously ahead for damage output in this category thanks to his extra attacks but the humble Captain is more point-efficient (when a melee weapon is the only upgrade).

 

vs MEQ

Unfortunately bottom of the pack here. His 8 strength hits will do damage, he just lacks the AP of the other options shown. Dante again up ahead for damage, Captain for points efficiency.

 

vs Multi-Wound

This is where Seth catches up a bit. While he still has weaker AP against the higher armoured targets his fixed 3 damage per wound will come into play. He's  not far behind dante vs non-characters here for damage output, though Dante jumps up if the target is a character and the hammer Captain is powerful regardless of that. In terms of points efficiency Seth is almost the same as a Relic Blade Captain when the target has multi-wounds, and does surpass Dante against non-characters.

 

So for me if I was taking him for his damage output there are more efficient options. Where he could add something special is his Whirlwind of Gore ability. If you throw him into the middle of a bunch of enemies with some Flesh Tearers units either side of him there's a 1/6 chance each will get to fight again in the same turn (if they survive). It's a low chance but it sure would be fun on the rare occasions that it happens!

 

The biggest downside for me is his lack of mobility. With no Jump Pack you're counting on a transport to get him close quickly, and if you pair him with a jump pack unit he'd struggle to follow them. If you take him with a non-JP unit to match up you're then stuck with 2 non-JP melee units, which might be ok when you first hop out of a transport but can then be a limiting factor in getting to the next preferred target.

 

In 7th I would run Seth and Corbulo together as they are both stuck on foot but unfortunately they can no longer buff each other.

 

How would I use him?

I will use Seth as I like the model and every now and then I run different characters for a bit of a change and to use models I own (like Tycho) but it will be in the knowledge that he's less efficient as a spearhead damage dealer than other options and his Whirlwind is a small chance of a bonus, not to be expected to occur at any point.

 

I would probably give him 1 or even 2 units to run round together - if I'm going to use him I might as well try to make the most of that low Whirlwind chance. With him being most efficient against multi-wound targets I'd maybe pair him with something like Hammer DC, see if they could kill one unit on the charge, consolidate into another to avoid being shot at and have Seth trigger the extra fight for them. If I did take an expensive unit they'd get Jump Packs though, to get them moving fast the rest of the game. Seth would then just have to keep up as best he can. They'd probably be delivered in some kind of transport, depending on the capacity needed to carry him plus the unit(s). Maybe a Flesh Tearers wing arriving in a decent size group from a Stormraven to support my main BA force?

 

In 7th I would also pair him with CC Scouts as his weapon was more infantry-focused and the Scouts were effetive in that role as well as providing ablative wounds for Seth. In 8th I feel anti-infantry would be a waste of his 3D so that combination is out for me.

 

He's a tricky one. Points-wise there are better options, but fluff-wise he's awesome and I will field him sometimes just for that! His Whirlwind of Gore will be irrelevant most of the time you play but there will be that one game one time where it triggers at a vital moment and gives you the extra damage you need to turn things round to claim victory.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Thoridon

[Thoridon]

This may sound like heresy, but bare with me for a second.

Gabriel Seth is just 135 points. He provides a 6" re-roll to hit bubble. You could have him just hang out next to a bunch of Predators, Razorbacks, Devastators etc. to boost their firepower, and be a counter assault unit. Have a Chaplain with Jump Pack buff the assault elements, while Seth provides a solid base of fire.

 

That would be an interesting use. Pairing him with Devastators would keep them having the same movement speed and let them walk around while getting rerolls on all their missed with the 4+. As you say, if anything either charges the Devs or gets too close Seth would be on hand to either heroically intervene or take the initiative to charge them while the Devs continue shooting.

 

On the other hand, for the same/similar points would you rather just run an extra unit of Devs to get double the number of shots rather than reroll misses, and more chance of one unit staying free to keep shooting if the other does get charged?

[H311fi5h]

For a single unit it's probably not efficient. But you can easily fit 4 tanks/squads into his 6" bubble. 2 shooting units + Seth is about as much firepower as 3 units without Seth. Taking his cost into consideration, I'd say Seth should buff 2+ Devastator Squads or Predators, or 3+ Razorbacks. 

[Charlo]

This may sound like heresy, but bare with me for a second.

Gabriel Seth is just 135 points. He provides a 6" re-roll to hit bubble. You could have him just hang out next to a bunch of Predators, Razorbacks, Devastators etc. to boost their firepower, and be a counter assault unit. Have a Chaplain with Jump Pack buff the assault elements, while Seth provides a solid base of fire.

 

Look at Tycho's cost, then get a little bit giddy. He's a really cheap buffer... 19 Melta Bombs!

 

Add in a Primaris Leuitenant and for about 175 you give everything within 6" of them re-roll 1s to Hit & Wound.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Charlo

[sebs_evo7]

Any ideas on what you would have with Seth in a crusader? I'm thinking a squad of death company, maybe a small 5 man squad of tacs and a few company veterans

[Bronze Katana]

Any ideas on what you would have with Seth in a crusader? I'm thinking a squad of death company, maybe a small 5 man squad of tacs and a few company veterans

 

Seth could also work well with traditional terminators. Re-rolls on all those storm bolter shots and moving heavy weapons, PLUS re-rolls with power fists is very useful - seeing as they are less likely to hit.

 

Less useful as you add modifiers after re-rolls, but still. And it is the same for all re-roll buffing units anyway.

 

Gotta say, I don't mind the original model, head and all. If you tilt him into a more sprinting forward stance it works better, IMO.

 

Like this (wish I had a better pic on me, and I'm about to replace his base with 32mm);

 

http://i.imgur.com/GEPVcRP.png

[Lucumon]

So, a thought on how Seth could be used in a very non-fluffy way:  firebase support.  Isn't he the cheapest chapter master out there?  Pop him next to 5 twin lascannon razorbacks with a Primaris LT and you are doubling the number of hit re-rolls.

 

It's like you have a mini-Roboute Girlyman but for half the price.

[Bronze Katana]

So, a thought on how Seth could be used in a very non-fluffy way:  firebase support.  Isn't he the cheapest chapter master out there?  Pop him next to 5 twin lascannon razorbacks with a Primaris LT and you are doubling the number of hit re-rolls.

 

It's like you have a mini-Roboute Girlyman but for half the price.

 

I'll be running him at the core of my major push. 

Vanguard vets will be creature hunting with a chaplain, heavy bolter devastators and twin las dreadnoughts providing fire support.

 

Seth will be going up the middle (or wherever the bulk of my forces are) as part of a mechanised push - 3 Razorbacks, a Redeemer, and a well placed drop pod and standard terminator squad - bulk Flesh Tearers Infantry with Seth's 6" bubble maxed out as much as possible. That's a lot of re-rolls.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Bronze Katana

[Nova_chron]

I have to admit I've always liked Seth because he just epitomizes the controlled rage that I feel the BA as a whole represent I've seriously thought about running FT instead of BA

[Nova_chron]

So I seem to have thought myself into using Seth in my army what would you guys do for a shoot army list vie roughed out a 1000 point list running him a primaris LT two intercessor squads a sniper scout unit and a light company vets unit of 4 guys with shields and a power sword on the sergeant in a battalion and a spearhead with a priest 2 devastator squads with heavy bolters, and one lascannon with a stock predator. Any thoughts on how to expand this or tweak it inside 1000 at first.

 

My usual opponent is probably orks

[Grazcruzk]

So I seem to have thought myself into using Seth in my army what would you guys do for a shoot army list vie roughed out a 1000 point list running him a primaris LT two intercessor squads a sniper scout unit and a light company vets unit of 4 guys with shields and a power sword on the sergeant in a battalion and a spearhead with a priest 2 devastator squads with heavy bolters, and one lascannon with a stock predator. Any thoughts on how to expand this or tweak it inside 1000 at first.

 

My usual opponent is probably orks

 

I would put in a vote for stormbolter/chainsword company vets for cheap dakka against orks if that is an option. Great with the auras that you have. Jump packs would allow them to fall back and still shoot if/when they get charged.

[Nova_chron]

I would need to find points elsewhere for jump packs