Unit of the Week 8th: Tactical Squad

[Acebaur]

So a new edition and new books across the board means a whole lot we need to discuss. Especially considering the very drastic changes to the game(most of which I think are great). So in light of that we are kicking off the UotW this year with 3 initial topics to get the ball rolling!

 

First up is one of the staple units of Space Marines, the tactical squad. While not a lot about this unit has changed there are some notable differences. First you now get the veteran sgt for free and there is a 1 point drop in their base cost. However this is offset by the significantly increased cost of special and heavy weapons. Which I think isn't necessarily a bad thing, Those weapons, several of which were basically useless in previous versions **Cough**Looking at you plasma**Cough** are now excellent choices especially since you are able to split fire now. Also Marines in general are more durable, able to still get a save from things that previously would kill them outright. 

 

So how will you be running your Tac Squads in 8th? Is it still worth it to go 10 men and combat squad? Or is 5 better due to the increased power of combi weapons? What kind of tactics will you use to make the most of them?

 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I love Tac Squads.  As a required unit, I early on found ways to make them work exceedingly well back in 5th Edition and I believe that they are still more effective than most players think.  It's not hard to get good damage out of them so long as you gear them, deploy them, and employ them properly.  Now then, when it comes to what options are available to sergeants, I've been focusing mainly on my Chaos Marines rather than my Codex Marines, so if I've got an option wrong I can only apologize.

 

For my part, I've been a proponent of the five man squad in a Razorback and continue to be so.  It leaves you space for a character to ride along, which is nice since the much-expanded character options give us some cheapish buff-leaders and melee killers that the Tacticals won't mind tagging along.  Trying to build this paradigm into a Rhino-based mechanized army will effect the lethality of your squads since you have to sacrifice that critical tenth man -- the second weapons trooper -- to make room for the character.  Alternatively, you can Combat Squad, but I really feel that MSU with a paired special weapon & combi-weapon will be the way forward.

 

On that note, my take on equipping the sergeant:

 

1. As I stated above, I think a combi-weapon is the best bet, particularly one that matches the special weapon the squad is equipped with. . . unless you're taking a non-mechanized squad with a heavy that is intended for backfield babysitting.  In that case, I think you're doing it wrong.  Devastators fill that role so much better by massing heavy weapons together, and you're not paying for bolter boys you don't particularly need.

 

2. Plasma & grav pistols got cheaper, so if you can take two pistols it's not a terrible idea.  I personally wouldn't -- I think the combis are better -- but they're no longer the horrible point sink they were.

 

3. In the same vein, I'd stay away from special CCWs too.  Tacticals have always been a shooting unit at heart; I have launched assaults with them, but that was always either a desperation play or because it helped me shape the battlefield by locking down enemy units.  The draw of the "hidden" power fist has returned, but in a five man squad, chances are you're not going to have much of a chance to use it.  If any CCW is of real use, I think it's actually the chainsword.  It increases your output without subtracting from your point total, but even then it's really there as a contingency.  In case you end up in combat.  In case your five man squad isn't wiped out.

[Acebaur]

I feel that there is very little reason to take 10 guys anymore and combat squad them because you no longer have to pay for the veteran Sgt and having access to the new combi platform means that you can basically get a special and a heavy in a 5 man unit.

 

Speaking of which, I'm not seeing many if any reasons to take a grav gun over a plasma gun. It has shorter range and less strength. Sure it has the possibility of being able to do more damage but only against certain units and plasma can do that too(albeit at a risk). And that risk can be mitigated by buff units.

[Jacques Corbin]

I disagree, the -1 BS for moving is better than being forced to Snapfire, but in terms of Melta weapons, there is no benefit to taking a Multimelta over a Meltagun, save range. Now for Plasma, it is only Heavy D3, on a Cannon versus Rapid Fire 1 on a gun. You have a 1 in 3 chance of a third shot at -1 BS, or Rapid Fire at full BS. I prefer my Tacs mobile, so it is combined and special for me.

[Claws and Effect]

I'll be deciding loadouts based on what I want that squad to do.

 

Ride in a Razorback/Rhino and get in the middle of things? Combi and special.

 

Camp in an objective in my own deployment zone? Long range heavy and a melee weapon on the sarge.

 

The objective campers will get a long ranged weapon so the squad can still contribute if my opponent ignores them for extended periods.

[Cap'm Heckus]

I'm thinking I might try MSU tacticals. 4 5-man squads with plasma and combo-plasma or plasma pistols (good again) in razorbacks. I'll let the transport be my heavy weapons guy.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I do have a bunch of unassembled Rhinos and some plasma/lascannon turrets I bought from Bitzpudlo.

 

Plasma-combi, plasma, twin-plasma, lascannon on the Razorback. That's a lot of plasma.

[Kua]

Twin plasma + LasCan blows up your tank because it’s “slain” on 1, not losing some wounds as it is with the new “heavy” plasma cannon.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So don't overcharge?

[Kua]

How about not taking plasma guns on tanks?

You lose the option to use a quite important firing mode else, getting half a weapon while paying for the full one.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

That's not really an option for me, as I already hacked up my other turrets to make las/plas turrets and I can't afford to buy new ones.  So I'll be sticking with las/plas Razorbacks for my Tac Squads, and enjoying it.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Keep a Captain within 6" of it to re-roll 1s. You'll need one for the plasma squad anyway.

[Captain Idaho]

I enjoyed Tactical squads with plasma guns and combi plasma as they match the bolters well yet are powerful enough to be used on other targets if need be.

 

Remember that most vehicles are toughness 7 so wounding on a 4+ is important.

 

In addition, overcharge is excellent for Tactical Marines as they are more expendable than say a Captain yet more likely to need the leg up for extra damage.

 

A game of objectives with large opposing units needs larger squads. I plan on 40 Tactical Marines in 4 squads going forward. 2 full squads in Rhinos for swift bolter-shock and 2 for objective holding and helping deal with deep strikers (there will be loads this edition).

[Kua]

Remember that most vehicles are toughness 7 so wounding on a 4+ is important.

 

Against vehicles (multiple W) I’d overcharge plasma anyway, for wounding better AND doing more damage.

That’s one of the advantages of regular marines over PriMarines and bikes: They don’t risk much.

As for characters, only a captain should carry plasma, IMO.

 

One more point about the vehicle thing:

I think it’s a bigger misconception of the overheating rules. With exceptions for dreadnought plasma and differently working exceptions for imperial tank plasma, not speaking of the razorback that just shouldn’t explode b/c of some plasmagun.

Apparently GW tried to stay with only “mortal wounds” (for the unit) or “slain” (for the model) as expressions, but it didn’t work well and they invented some inconsistent exceptions.

[Kua]

Another question:

What do people think about the close combat equipment for the sergeant?

We already had this thread.

 

I have redone some calculations for chainsword, power axe (assuming other basic power weapons give similar results), single lightning claw and thunder hammer.

Mostly because I was curious about the claw being middle ground between the acceptable power axe and the usually not recommendable (for a 2A model) thunder hammer.

 

Unsaved wounds from one 2A-model attacking against MEQs:

CS: 0.33

PA: 0.59

LC: 0.67

TH: 0.69

 

Against a rhino or dread:

CS: 0.22

PA: 0.30

LC: 0.49

TH: 1.7 (due to 3D)

 

What targets are missing to get a more complete picture?

What would would you give your sergeant? And what if it is a flamer squad and expected to end up in melee?

Do you think the lightning claw has a place or is at least worth consideration? It’s preferred targets would probably have high T (5–7) but only single wounds. Are there any of those even out there?

[Freman Bloodglaive]

A model with a claw is cool, and losing the second attack for an extra melee weapon means that its main disadvantage against other weapons has disappeared.

[Aziras]

I am oldschool and ran 10man tacticals split to combat squads for years in 2nd ed. Most likely I will continue to field some going forward.

 

The special+combi weapon 5man in a Razorback is pretty neat, but they get expensive (175 with plasmas and twin-h.bolters). It is a good shock unit, that has tactical value.

 

The alternative is good too. Sometimes you need a squad to hold an objective, or block off an area from deep striking clearance. Marines do not have a lot of disposable units and you are sort of stuck with long-range tanks and dreads, sniper scouts or a tactical squad. For this purpose your special weapon will rarely get to shoot at anything but a target of opportunity. And unless the objective is important or your opponent want to clear the area, the squad will just sit there. But if you stuff in a heavy weapon you suddenly have a higher threat level. The synergies of such a tactical "camper" and not moving with the h.weapon works well. I always liked missile launchers for this, but not everyone like them. I like the flexibility for a unit that will likely shoot at targets of opportunity rather than move/position to take out specific threats. The new casualty rules help out here too, as you can safely leave your missile launcher marine at a good vantage point without fear of him getting sniped. Your opponent need to get through the other 4 marines first even if they are hiding behind a wall.

 

The other "feet on the ground" are either more expensive elites or specialized units, or scouts. Scouts are a viable alternative to the ranged combat squad. They can have a heavy weapon too and sniper rifles put up a reasonable threat level. You have a slightly worse save, but for a unit that is likely to just be a target of opportunity for your opponent they often do not take a lot of fire. Combined with deploying them rather easily in cover (if you play with a proper battlefield) the save is less of an issue. The infiltrating deployment rule can be a blessing or a curse though. It is very effective to get them in a good position and awesome at blocking off an area for turn1 deep strikes. But it also draws a lot of attention to the scouts and often puts them in a position where they are the only target for enemy guns.

[Montford]

I fielded a missile launcher with my 5 man Tac Squads, but after my last game I think I will swap them out for Multimeltas. It'll be a better bang for my buck.

[Jagus Kumkani]

I run my Salamanders in 5 man squads, Sgt has a Combi-Melta and a squad member has a flamer. It's worked out well dealing with infantry and armor. It's also worked out well in the morale phase.