Ancients?

[Jacques Corbin]

What do my fellow Ravens think of the Chapter/Company Ancient? I love the banner abilities, however it just feels odd to have a force of covert ops specialists including a guy waving a big banner.

 

Any ideas on how to implement them on the tabletop? Would love to hear any experience with them in a game. I will post mine when I get the models completed.

 

Also, if anybody has any well painted Ancients & Banners, feel free to post the pics in this thread to inspire others.

[Dosjetka]

You could model the Ancient with a sophisticated comms array instead of the banner. :tu:

[Halandaar]

You could model the Ancient with a sophisticated comms array instead of the banner.

 

This was my immediate reaction as well; essentially a 40k Master of Signal.

[Dosjetka]

Great minds think alike. ;)

 

It's a good way to explain the aura effect the model has.

[Race Bannon]

I was never a fan of banner/flags in 40K since Rogue Trader.  If I want that, then I'll play Fantasy ... er, any fantasy or historical game :lol:

 

So, the comms pack is a really cool idea.  Yet, I think the point of the banner is as a highly visible rally-point or inspirational totem (so to speak).

 

For me, I would not be using them in a game (never have actually), but I'll paint one to get my hobby on - he's just really Really REALLY low on the list.

[Kua]

RG is not only about sneaky ninja stuff, but also about a massive surprise attack here and there.

You know, all the jump pack theme.

 

And in the latter ones something like a standard bearer could have a place. The problem is: Neither can he wear a jump pack nor would I recommend weaving a banner while flying…

 

I’m not yet sure if I’ll make one one day. I see all the troop choice restrictions as overrated anyway, but I didn’t have the right idea where to put him into yet.

 

Edit:

Also consider this. As long as you rely on mixing equipment in a unit for having ablative wounds and longer surviving ‘real’ weapons, the ancient is not as effective. As soon as you can’t or won’t, as with PriMarines, Termies or gunslinger Veterans (without naked ones mixed in), it an entirely other story.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Kua

[WAR]

Here's my take on Ancients/ Standard Bearers in armies I play:

 

Raptors (and Ravenguard for that matter too)- Negative on the banner bearer. Raptors rely on being sneaky, stealthy and being a recon force.  Giant Flag says " Here we are!" and undermines the entire idea. that being said the Master of Signals idea is Aces in my book if you wanted to take an ancient. 

 

Crimson Fists- If I have the points and feel the urge to include it maybe....but points are better spent on taking more sternguard and other stuff

 

Order of Our Martyred Lady- If i have the points probably. Focal point and rally point for my army.....not that the Chick Big   Wings flying is not a big enough focal/ rally point on her own.

[MajorNese]

Well, a standard bearer doesn't belong to combat in case of rather pragmatic sneaky armies, that's clear. I got the primaris ancient, and will build him though, just because it looks nice on the desk. For a more appropriate gaming version, I might convert a techmarine, setting up an Elysian scanner I've got flying around.

 

Rules wise, haven't even looked them up...

[Claws and Effect]

Sometimes the Raven Guard are forced into frontal assaults.

 

I could easily see a banner bearer having a place in a mixed force of several chapters.

 

Raven Guard are naturally stealthy. That is great when they're working alone.

 

Not so great when they're the forward element of a multi-chapter strike force. Friendly fire is a real possibility when you can't tell exactly where your allies are.

 

"See the big flag? Don't aim your Thunderfires near it."

[Kua]

The purpose of a standard here is similar to the WHF one, inspiring adjacent warriors.

For friendly fire in RL, i.e. in WW2 when taking Berlin, the Soviets used white markings on the tanks’ backs while the front stayed coloured in some green camo.

 

White stripes on the backs of SM helmets would look funny though. ^^

[Khine]

I mean.. The Raven Guard are the masters of sleight of hand. I remember in one of the HH books Corax even uses a line like .. "Attack where the enemy isn't expecting you to be".

 

A company banner/ancient etc .. is going to draw the enemies eyes. I could very much see Shadow Captains using that as means of refocusing the enemies attention in order to have other parts of the force striking a key point of the enemies defense or slipping past to get to another objective.

[Jacques Corbin]

Well, the banner gives a 6" bubble of shoot one weapon or swing one more time on a 4+ before being removed as a casualty.

 

It would be good to have him camp near a walking HQ with Assault Marines waiting in the wings. Lure them in and then rip them to shreds.

 

Or how about Devastators with Plasma Cannons? You lose a model to a mortal wound from firing supercharged, and on a 4+ he can shoot supercharged again before dying. Hell, have an Apothecary nearby, and on a 4+ in your next movement phase he will be back on his feet to fire again.

[duz_]

Well, the banner gives a 6" bubble of shoot one weapon or swing one more time on a 4+ before being removed as a casualty.

 

It would be good to have him camp near a walking HQ with Assault Marines waiting in the wings. Lure them in and then rip them to shreds.

 

Or how about Devastators with Plasma Cannons? You lose a model to a mortal wound from firing supercharged, and on a 4+ he can shoot supercharged again before dying. Hell, have an Apothecary nearby, and on a 4+ in your next movement phase he will be back on his feet to fire again.

 

I agree no reason he can't be holding the back field inspiring the "newbies" (ie Dev's) on how its done in the RG chapter

His benefit still works nicely there

 

I do like the MOS idea too though... how about I split it down the middle? Do one with comms relay with banner on top of the backpack! ;) :D

[Kua]

Ancient with plasma Devs:

If an enemy kills models, you remove the bolter guys first if you can, the banner gives you little.

If you roll a 1 with overloaded plasma, you have a 50 % chance of shooting one more time with the model.

 

Captain with plasma Devs:

You hit better all the time, even when not overloading (already having some benefit).

If you roll a 1, you not only have a 83 % chance of keeping the model, but also a 67 % chance of making the miss a hit.

 

So… no, thanks @ Ancient + Devs.

[Lord Doyok]

I play Co. Ancient in my 2k Brigade list. He is like the MVP of my army, and much hated by the enemy.

 

I like the feel of 'the trap is sprung' when my LasDevs dealt damage before it is removed.. and later came back with apothecary

 

And that plasma trick mentioned by Jacques Corbin, i always Supercharged my Plasmas and i can say, Gets Hot has never felt so good before

[9x19 Parabellum]

I used a Chapter Ancient last night in my first game of 8th edition. I have to say he was a bit of a let down and wonky to use.  That may be because remembering to use his Banner ability was not intuitive (given that it's a brand new thing to 8th edition). I forgot to use it several times.  The inability to have a proper shooting weapon and nothing except for power sword really limits his options as well.

[Kua]

I don’t see the use of a chapter ancient anyway and don’t know why they made distinguished rules for both, chapter~ and company~.

+1 Ld on a char not able to share his a Ld with a unit, and no weapon options. Why?

So that one can say “Your standard bearer is from the wrong box/wearing the wrong helmet and that’s why he is chapter and not company and accordingly not WYSIWYG!”?

[9x19 Parabellum]

Well the +1 leadership is to <chapter> units within 6", so that's cool, and he doesn't need to be "in" the unit to help.

[Kua]

Both have the +1 bubble.

I’m speaking of the meaningless Ld 9 instead of 8 for the model itself.

(It sure will have a rare application when the Eldar get a codex with 6 farseer psy powers and mind duel amongst them, or maybe some effects that already are in the indices, but it’s still very rare.)

[9x19 Parabellum]

Both have the +1 bubble.

I’m speaking of the meaningless Ld 9 instead of 8 for the model itself.

(It sure will have a rare application when the Eldar get a codex with 6 farseer psy powers and mind duel amongst them, or maybe some effects that already are in the indices, but it’s still very rare.)

 

Oh I see what you're saying, right.  

[Lord Doyok]

At the extra cost of a Power Sword when compared to Co. Ancient, the Chapter Ancient comes with +1 Ld, +1 save and a Power Sword. That is a good buy, but the downside is we can't change his wargear.

 

My Ancient's role is to boost my gunline while my Assault Squads and Scouts push forward. So I choose Co. Ancient with range weapons. Even a Storm Bolter can contribute to the game, and if I have the points, Combis

 

How to use Ancient? The best is with ranged units as the model we about to remove will be able to use full profile of weapons to attack (e.g. Heavy 3 = 3 shots), compared to just 1 attack with CC weapons.

 

Put him with 3+ squads of Devs (i uses 4 units of 5 with 2 Heavy Weapons each) and Tacts with Plasmas within the bubble. Make sure there's a Apothecary nearby and a Captain or Shrike for rerolls and counter attack. For a complete combo, add a Primaris Lt (i dont have any yet)

 

Having 20 units to deploy means I always go 2nd. In one game, I lost 2 Marines with Lascannons in the first shooting phase, but they took out 2 Destroyers along with them. Come my turn myassult squads easily took out the remaining 4 Destoyers, allowing my Devs to focus on the 2nd squad of 6 Destroyers.

 

In another game, one squad of LasDevs wipedout in the first shooting phase, but they took out 9 wounds off a Land Raider before dying.

 

Rolling 4+ to get that free attack is 50-50. So far it worked well for me. I dread the day when the dice went below average, but having 12 Command Points would helped a lot.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Lord Doyok