The Raven Guard and the Primaris Marines (meta fluff only)

[Filius]

Dear Ravens and Ravenettes,

 

a small foreword: This is an attempt to discuss how the Primaris Marines could be integrated within the major Topics and Themes of the Raven Guard. So this is a kind of meta fluff discussion.

 

When the Primaris Marines were announced a few weeks I go, I was still more or less on the wolf side of astartes life and started a Thread "The Primaris Marines and Space Wolves" over in the Wolves Subforum. My main idea was, that the Primaris Marines could add nicely to some of the major Topics and Themes of the Wolves, especially that of "being old". The Primaris make every other Marine look old, because they are bigger and have cooler Armour. For the Wolves this is not a problem, because "being old" is a virtue or at least a main topic among them (Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Wolf Scouts, Björn …). Plus they have the Legend of Frost Giants (Jotun) as a popular part of nordic Mythology.

 

Now that I tend more to the raven side of the astartes, I find myself thinking about the same Question regarding the Ravens: How or what could the Primaris Marines add to the Raven Guard?

 

The Raven Guard are – in my humble opinion – the most modern Chapter of the First Founding with their denial of any old Culture the resemble and their focus on Stealth, which comes naturally with all sort of High-Tech-Associations (Night-Googles and such). Soo … the general Appearance of the Primaris does not really add to that.

 

Plus: It's been hard to explain anyone how a Superhuman as big as a common Astartes can sneak up on anyone, or hide in the Shadows. But the Primaris are even bigger and bulkier, and they may look cool, but they certainly don't look sneaky and stealthy …

 

… sooo what else do we have? I can see at least a few ways …

 

1. Geneseed Problems solved

 

The Primaris more or less promise to solve several of the Problems with the Geneseed of the Chapters. Plus they are simply a lot. So they are probably welcomed by the Raven Guard, which suffered from constantly being understrength. This might lead the Raven Guard to a bit more "normal" way of warfare and thus to tensions within the Raven Guard, which might be interesting to explore.

 

2.  Death from Orbit

 

The Inceptors Primaris with their Meteoric Descend add to the much much much favoured use of Jump Packs among the Raven Guard. So they fit in "nicely" there, and might become the by far most popular use of Primaris within the Chapter.

 

3. Legacy of the Raptors

 

Corax Experiments during the Horus Heresy with the Geneseed led to the beastial Raptors (not the Successor Chapter). They are a kind or Mr. Hide to the Dr. Jekyll the Raven Guard usually are. One could extend that in the narrative dimension and consider them less sneaky, but more brutal. Something like the Wulfen or the Deathcompany. This wouldn't fit to the main Concept of the Raven Guard, but hey, the Blood Angels are not proud of their Deathcompany either … you can't choose the curse you're given.

 

4. Hit with Force, a lot of Force

 

The Lexicanum defines defines the Raven Guard (among other thing) by their specialisation in "… striking with the precise application of force." The Primaris could be seen as a new height in applying as much force as possible. This would also justify the use of the other more footslogging Types of Primaris Marines, esp. if the Repulsor would be as fast as "normal" skimmer.

 

5. Contradiction in Terms

 

Actually I am a big Fan of Characters that seem to be contradicting: The clever Giant, the sensible Barbarian, the cruel Professor. Maybe there's a working narrative way, to make the Primaris (or just a few of them) even better Stealth Specialist than the current Raven Guard, maybe with some sort of Drawback: They can melt with the Shadows (like the Shadowmasters) but everytime they results in Phases of deepest melancholy and depression … or … it get's harder for them to reappear from the shadows until, one day they vanish forever …

 

 

Okay … so much from the thoughts out of my head … you guys and girls have spent much more time with the Raven Guard and their Lore. Do you have any other Ideas how to melt the Primaris into the Raven Guard?

 

As always: Thank you very much in advance for making this a great place!

[Bedouin2]

Well if from what I've read is true, there is another type of Primaris unit out there that are adapted for stealth called the Reivers. So of course you can see them getting incorporated into the ranks of the RG fairly easy. As for the others... I'm kinda torn about. For one, the Raven Guard needs the numbers. Their geed-seed isn't that stable and riddled with mutations, making it hard to get new recruit's bodies to accept it. On the second hand though, they are outsiders. Yes they come from their Father's gene-seed, but made from someone else's hands. Two things can happen in my opinion, they are accepted in but there is much distrust. Or they are accepted in and are used as diversions, sent to the thickest part of the battle to soak up the casualties while the regular RG do what they do best. I can't see the Primaris just coming in and everything be great and they be experts at stealth. It takes years for a regular RG to gain the knowledge needed to successfully operate in the shadows.

 

This is just my two cense though lol.  

[Filius]

Ah, right the Reivers, thanks! I read about them but instantly forgot that again. Wether or not they'll be real Minis, in the Fluff they exist, so we can work with them.

 

And … this is a good point to ask a question about the Raven Guard: The Lexicanum says, that they "rely on Gene-seed stocks from Terra". Does that refer the Organs and such, or to the Recruits?

 

And yes, indeed … the Raven Guard are very distrusting Chapter. I hadn't thought about that, darn … hm-hm … I'll keep thinking …

[Bedouin2]

I believe when it comes to the gene-seed stock it for the organs. As for recruits, I have no clue, haven't read anything about that. I can imagine they, like many, use their home world and moon to recruit, but citizens of Kiavhar suffer mutations more than a usual forge world does, the only thing that saves them from extermination is the quality of product the forge world produces. So you can see why it is so hard for the RG to get new numbers.

 

Their gene-seed being unstable just adds to it. Some organs that are in other Space Marines don't even exist in them, like the Belcher's Gland and the Mueranoid. And of course what the Melanchromic organ does, pale skin and coal black hair and eyes.

 

Every casualty suffered is taken hard by the RG, and all are trained in extracting the progenoid gland of their fallen because it is so important for them to get it back. I have yet to read about a RG Apothecary (in the 40k side), though I know they exist, but are not relied upon like other chapters to do that task.

 

These are the only reasons I can see that justifies them allowing the new Primaris into their ranks. But the Horus Heresy hit them hard, so hard that the distrust for others developed by the ones there and Corax, are still felt 10,000 years later.   

[Kua]

To my understanding, gene seed is the progenoid part, which makes a human with some implanted organs into a space marine of the legion in question.
 
Also:
I hope very much that something as described in point 5 will not come true.

Primaris, if at all, have to be new, not knowing how things work and not being trusted by the chapter’s establishment.

Primaris that all of the sudden are even more sneaky and more emo than any other raven would be just… I don’t even know how to describe my opinion on them without insulting anyone.

[Filius]

 

*snip*

 

These are the only reasons I can see that justifies them allowing the new Primaris into their ranks. But the Horus Heresy hit them hard, so hard that the distrust for others developed by the ones there and Corax, are still felt 10,000 years later.   

 

Totally! Plus: Their style of warfare is based on superior knowledge. This of course makes them distrusting, as they know best how extremely valuable the right information is in the wrong hands. I really haven't seen it this way before, but actually the Raven Guard have better Reasons to distrust the Primaris than the Space Wolves or Dark Angels (and their distrust ist overwhelming, when you read the subforums around here ).

 

Withing the Rout I always argued with the Dan Abnett Quote, that the Emperor only allowed "something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist" only to bring down another legion, what includes that the foremost virtue of the Wolves is and must be Loyalty. And when you value to the Emperor above all, than you have no chance to stand against the Primaris, as they come directly from Roboute Guilliman himself, Lordcommader of the Empire, Son of the Emperor, Brother of your Primarch and the only Primarch we currently have. Refusing the Primaris means putting something else above Loyalty. So did I argue within the Wolves-Forum.

 

Buuut … here things are different, if I am not mistaken. Although Corax pretty immediatelly agreed with the Codex Astartes and such agreed with Roboutes lead in this, the Raven Guard – as it seems to me – kept an autonomy and distance from most other Imperial Institutions second perhaps only to the Iron Hands. That is really an interesting point and a souce to tension – which, from a narrative point of view – is a good thing.

 

I would also agree that, when Corax saw the greater Wisdom in the Codex Astartes, the Raven Guard Chapter Command should also be intelligent enough to see the advantages of the Primaris for them … but I am still not sure about this myself. That's why we are discussing here.

[Filius]

To my understanding, gene seed is the progenoid part, which makes a human with some implanted organs into a space marine of the legion in question.

 

Also:

I hope very much that something as described in point 5 will not come true.

Primaris, if at all, have to be new, not knowing how things work and not being trusted by the chapter’s establishment.

Primaris that all of the sudden are even more sneaky and more emo than any other raven would be just… I don’t even know how to describe my opinion on them without insulting anyone.

 

Hehe, this is very civilised of you! And other people of other chapter are not that civilised, as I can tell from first hand experiences.

 

Two additions on that topic.

 

First … there was a very, very nice Reply within the Wolves-Thread with a dramatised suggestion how an "integration" of the Primaris into the Space Wolves might look like …

 

**Thunderhawk Gunship lands in remote part of Asaheim**

 

Wolf Priest stands up: "Every one of you Jotunn monstrosities ON YOUR FEET!

 

Remove all of your gear save your combat blades.

 

NOW GET OFF OF MY THUNDERHAWK!

 

IF we see you at The Fang, we'll have bolt pistols, chainswords and the rest your stuff and you've earned a place."

 

**Thunderhawk Gunship takes off**

 

… this could be as well applied for the Raven Guard:

 

**Thunderhawk Gunship lands in remote part of Kiavahr**

 

Chaplain stands up: "Every one of you monstrosities ON YOUR FEET!

 

Remove all of your gear save your combat blades.

 

NOW GET OFF OF MY THUNDERHAWK!

 

IF we see you at Ravenspire, we'll have bolt pistols, chainswords and the rest your stuff and you've earned a place."

 

**Thunderhawk Gunship takes off**

 

Or of course something similiar …

 

Second … what I wrote in Point No. 5 was just one possible Idea, and even how I shaped it, was just one possiblity of manies. The basic Idea was: They are obviously bigger and stronger. And they should add somehow to the Chapter without just being Meatshields. So give them an unexpected gift, that makes them somehow stand out. But! Not without a cost, without a dark side. Nothing in 40k ever comes without a dark side. All Chapters, especially the First Founding ones are deeply flawed and so must be the Primaris. With great Strength come great Flaws … that was my direction of thought here …

 

P.S.: … and even that is just an Idea. If that doesn't work for you and/or the other Ravens around here, then it doesn't work. That's the Idea of this discussion: To exclude those Ideas that don't work and to find some or maybe even none, that do work.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Filius

[Claws and Effect]

Your dramatization of the Raven Guard Primaris integration would be a really good way of ensuring they have no Primaris.

 

Any Primaris that makes it from the wilds of Kiavahr to the Ravenspire with nothing but a combat knife should be elected Chapter Master immediately.

 

The Ravenspire is on the surface of Deliverance....Kiavahr's moon.

[Filius]

Your dramatization of the Raven Guard Primaris integration would be a really good way of ensuring they have no Primaris.

 

Any Primaris that makes it from the wilds of Kiavahr to the Ravenspire with nothing but a combat knife should be elected Chapter Master immediately.

 

The Ravenspire is on the surface of Deliverance....Kiavahr's moon.

 

Yes, I do know that … but at least they do have chance to sneak into a transport or capture a shuttle or something like this. If I had put the scene on a remote part of Deliverance they would have been frozen in the vacuum a few moments after the Thunderhawk had opened it's doors, if I am not mistaken.  

[Kua]

I have no problem with them being meat shields and only partly fitting into the usual chapter tactics, posing a conflict there.

They have their 2W/model for something after all, should go use them…

On the opposite, the fluff would be of the most ugly kind if the newcomers outshone the chapter veterans in what the chapter is good at by tradition.

 

Also, what Gemini wrote, is not even so much of a joke because SWs actually do have this kind of a ritual for recruiting.

As for how RG would react, I just don’t know. They are much less drastic and I wouldn’t expect such fierce reactions, they don’t need similar recruitment rituals because the enough of the recruits are already killed by the gene seed itself.

[Filius]

Now also officially announced, including Pics:  "guerilla specialists of the Primaris Space Marines", which "aren’t just about stealth, but terror", Primaris Marines in Knickerbocker Power Armour. I have to admit: if the Skull-Helmet weren't a design canibalism of the Chaplains, I'd been kinda enthusastic right now … but you can always change Heads. Hmm … looks like things start getting complicated in the Raven Guard Fluff / Meta …

 

… on the other Hand: While being on the Playground with my Daughter I had a lot of time to read more in the Sons of Corax Anthology and

think about this Thread (among other things). It might aswell work, if the (common) Primaris were given the Battlefield Role as Meatshields, when the Battle and the Situation demands it. In Helion Rain for example some really tough Meatshields would have been of good use.

 

Plus: The Chapters Name is neither Raven Assasins, nor Raven Sharpshooters, but Raven Guard – so there is at least a link to a major Aspekt of the Chapter. In German we have the Term "Schildwache" literally translated with "Shield Guard", which might suite the role of the common Primaris within the Raven Guard well …

[Race Bannon]

There has been a lot of opinion shared about the new Primaris dudes.  Frankly, I'm still absorbing what I'm seeing ...

 

It's obvious, per GW,that the Raven Guard have accepted the "reinforcements".  As was stated earlier, it makes sense as their recruitment was slower than other Chapters.  In a way, I am hoping the Primaris development does not affect the Raven Guard tradition (so to speak) that was developed because of their recruitment rate.

 

So, where do the Reivers fit?  I'll need to see more than what we've been given.  I always thought Space Marines were "terrible" in that causing, or likely to cause, terror.  And some Chapter do this with ease, yet current fluff suggests Raven Guard excel at that tactic.  So why should these few dudes be more terrifying?

[Kua]

Do we have new info on this cause?

Yesterday there were news about new models and boxes, and else?

[Mr. Poe]

Nothing else....

 

It's very strange and kind of annoying how they are releasing this stuff....

 

The index hasn't been out two weeks yet and we already know of a handle full of Primaris models that are not in it..

 

Supposedly these models along with the Librarian are going to be released in July so I guess it's safe to assume the SM Codex will be getting released then too. There is no way they are releasing models without a source for the rules. 

[Claws and Effect]

It's also possible that these new guys are going to be the start of the "rules are in the box" thing we were hearing about.

 

In fact, I think it likely.

[Mr. Poe]

Have they done something like that previously? Maybe for AoS?

[Kua]

In 2nd edition there was a time… ;)

Also, they already added new units to existing codices in the more recent past.

I think the Nightspinner, even it had FW rules for long at that time, is such a case?

[Race Bannon]

White Dwarf was also a source for new units.  Not recently that I can recall though (Sisters "Codex" notwithstanding).

[Kua]

Necrons 3rd (pre codex), Blood Angels 3rd (pre codex), …

Yes. And the later added single units had also rules on the website, ofc. “Rules in the box” is just a term, since 2nd Ed they are not really in the box only in the sense that you’d need the box to get the rules.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Kua

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

It states right in the core book that kits come with their dataslate, so I think it's safe to assume all these new units will follow that logic.

[Filius]

In Kill Team there was also a small Booklet for each Astartes and T'au containing the Builiding Instructions and the Dataslate.

 

Same for the Skaven and Dwarfen Expansions for Blood Bowl …

[TokenTank19]

There has been a lot of opinion shared about the new Primaris dudes.  Frankly, I'm still absorbing what I'm seeing ...

 

It's obvious, per GW,that the Raven Guard have accepted the "reinforcements".  As was stated earlier, it makes sense as their recruitment was slower than other Chapters.  In a way, I am hoping the Primaris development does not affect the Raven Guard tradition (so to speak) that was developed because of their recruitment rate.

 

So, where do the Reivers fit?  I'll need to see more than what we've been given.  I always thought Space Marines were "terrible" in that causing, or likely to cause, terror.  And some Chapter do this with ease, yet current fluff suggests Raven Guard excel at that tactic.  So why should these few dudes be more terrifying?

 

Think on it this way, your a normal human facing a 7ft tall guy built like like a Greek god who's dressed in thick heavy armour and all your shots are bouncing off his armour , even those shots that do cause damage are not stopping this guy, he just keeps coming towards you, and his gun is blowing up your fellow humans so easily, space marines just don't stop unless you put them down or they kill you, if that was me i would be pretty damn terrified.

 

I see Reivers as a kind of upgraded scouts with better armour and gear.

Edited December 30, 2017 by TokenTank19