Post-release roundtable: what worked? what didnt

[Blackwinter]

Hi brothers,

 

i have seen this topic in BA forums and its very useful i think, so decided to make it work for us.  

 

Copying it as the original:

 

 

 

Now that many of us have a few games of 8th under our belts, let's talk about what happened and what we learned. Posts are encouraged (but not required) to be in the following format:
 

The good:

•  What worked well in your list, or even exceeded your expectations?

The bad:

•  what did not work?

Takeaways:

•  What you learned - what changes will you make, if any? Will you scrap your list entirely, or perhaps slaughter a lamb at midnight for the dice gods?

 

For Russ and The Allfather!

[PeteySödes]

This is an awesome topic idea. I have to wait for tomorrow to play but my plan is to try and emulate my most used 7th lists first as a gauge. Then I'll start working in the things i'm really excited about trying out.

 

Looking forward to seeing peoples thoughts.

[Gherrick]

My experience has been exclusive vs grey knights, but it has been very enlightening.

 

The good:

* Storm shields are a must-have on multi-wound models, for lascannons will otherwise ruin your day.

* WG in all forms are top notch. Having access to combis and two weapons (or weapon + ss) makes these the real star of our army. There's talk that this might change with our codex, but I worry any equipment nerf will turn them from hero to zero.

Vehicles are much more durable, and even the lowly rhino I'd worth throwing into a list to provide better movement for yor foot soldiers.

* wulfen can take a lot of punishment before they drop, thanks to the improved death frenzy rule.

* Bjorn and Murderfang are unique in being characters and vehicles, meaning they can be shielded by your army during the initial rush. Not even our blizzdreads have that much protection.

 

The bad:

I can't find a reason to use GH or BC other than for fluff reasons. WG are just better overall for the points.

 

Take aways:

* combis are REAL good now. Storm bolters are also just nuts. 10 WG @ chainsword *2 and storm bolters = very cost effective unit, with 40 shots and attacks for 180pts.

* TWC are effective, but they are losing out on a shooting round or two compared to bikes.

* stormfangs are much improved, and beat stormwolves unless you need the transport capacity.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

For you guys that have played games of 8th.. I know that combat has gotten a bit of a boost which our Wolves do benefit from but as far as shooting goes do you think a list would be lacking with out any long range shooting? 

I've got an idea for a list that has lot more close in shooting 24-36" range. Which kinda reflects the midrange nature of our Army.. I just don't know how well that'll work against Armies like Tau that can shoot you up close and far away? I definitely think my list is more CC oriented which made me feel like not having the range will workout. 

[Hellrender]

My experience has been exclusive vs grey knights, but it has been very enlightening.

 

 

The bad:

I can't find a reason to use GH or BC other than for fluff reasons. WG are just better overall for the points.

 

 

Not even to get the Batallion detachment for 3 command points? I believe all the others only give 1 command point right? I don't know what sort of role command points will come to play, but the question remains if it will be worth sacrificing 2 command points for army selection flexibility?

[Gherrick]

 

My experience has been exclusive vs grey knights, but it has been very enlightening.

 

 

The bad:

I can't find a reason to use GH or BC other than for fluff reasons. WG are just better overall for the points.

 

 

Not even to get the Batallion detachment for 3 command points? I believe all the others only give 1 command point right? I don't know what sort of role command points will come to play, but the question remains if it will be worth sacrificing 2 command points for army selection flexibility?

 

The only real strategem I found to be useful is the one to interrupt the charge order. The others have an overall minimal impact on results so far. Once we get codex-specific stategems, I'll re-evaluate. Plus, Bjorn by himself gives a CP, and he is pure win for most armies (I recommend the twin lascannon option over the heavy plasma cannon).

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

This is the bat rep I made for my first 8th game. Interestingly it answers your points rather well.

 

So I faced guard in a classic killpoints game. Guard has an easy time with killpoints as casting is easy so I think I would have had a better go at objectives but we wanted to keep it simple as all the new rules slowed us down a bit as it was.

 

His list (memory)

 

Pask

 

Commander

Command squad

Comissar all in a chimera

 

 

2 primaris psyker

 

2 regular guard squads with auto cannon and melta in taurox

 

1 regular guard squads with auto cannon and melta in a chimera

 

3 Lehman Russ battle tanks

 

2 wyverns

 

3 hellhounds

 

Here's what went wrong.

Both the Skyclaws and the TDAWGs botched their deep strike charges. This caused the terminators to die to initial shooting from hell hounds (now a fantastic imperial guard choice for back field defense they are fast and drop a lot of 2 damage shots).

 

I did not have enough armor killing power for the amount of armor guard can bring to the table. Part of that was due to the early loss of the terminators, but over all full mech guard was hard to combat. More range anti tank next time.

 

Here's what was awesome

Bjorn is a beast. The character rule got him up the board and when he finally lost tgat protection he survived a whole round of focused fire from all guard not engaged in combat. He dropped a Russ and a chimera and then died to smite. Plus contributed good shooting on his way up. Smite is something to look out for btw.

 

Rhinos are tough now. They lasted 3 and 4 rounds each. The razor back only lasted 2 but it got focused on because lascannos are scary.

 

The predictor was awesome. It dropped pask (with a bit of help from the razorback) and a hell hound and more than half of another helhound before it got dropped.it was obscured for several shots, and that 2+ is good.

 

The swift claws did awesome after thier first failure as well. They dropped an infantry squad and their tramsport, as well as the commander, comissar and a primaris psyker. I may switch them to melta in the future though as that would have been useful, even on a 4+.

 

Lastly consolidating into combats is an awesome trick to keeping guys alive or forcing the opponent to withdraw and forgo shooting.

 

All in all the units did good. There were a couple tactical errors on my part (new character rules are gunna take a bit of getting used to) but overall i think 8th has helped us quite a bit.

 

Fenris hjolda!

[Brother Hellion]

I've only done one game so far but from what I've seen here is the list.

 

The Good

 

*WG Terminators take a lot more punishment and can dish it out.*

 

*Stormshields are a most for units that you want to survive a lot of shooting*

 

*twin linked assault cannons are the most badass weapon to date. 12 shots of strength 6 that just mow down everything*

 

*Stormwolf pimped out can really kill stuff. like a leman russ in one turn of shooting*

 

*Long fangs with missiles are great again! Yes.*

 

The bad

 

*Krom may still be good but feels nerfed due to the lack of his old abilities.*

 

*Krom's abilities don't work when inside a Land raider*

 

*TWC are tougher but can't re roll charges by themselves. Hate when they fail charges*

 

*Elites can be swarmed a lot more if they are charged by guardsmen.*

 

*armor saves can easily be over come with the right weapons*

 

*Deep strikes are nerfed (see below)*

 

Takeaways: 

 

*I have to disagree with Gherrick on GHs because they seem to do fine in my game. I upgraded each pack leader with plasma pistol but I might switch to combi plasmas for more range and firepower. Plus you can have one GH switch out just his bolt pistol with a plasma and keep the bolter on hand. So potentially you can have a five man team fire off five shots plasma in 12 inch range but at max still have the ability for four shots bolt and two shots plasma. This can essentially give a small pack some teeth when holding objectives or moving through cover to surgical strike enemy positions.*

 

*Can't say I have an opinion on BCs cause I haven't used them in a game yet. Though its interesting they got their headstrong rule back*

 

*I feel more should have been added to Krom to make hims stand out from regular foot slogging Wolf lords since the fluff makes him out to be a raging spicy alcoholic who finds penitence during Warzone fenris. I'm not sure how to improve upon him but while he was out my long fangs and land raider was shooting better*

 

*While the mishap table is gone, so too is the ability to pocket units deep within enemy emplacements. I think you need to think more tactically when you drop units instead of just looking for open space to pop them down.*

[Freman Bloodglaive]

 

 

WG Terminators take a lot more punishment and can dish it out.

 

Did we ever expect to see the day when that could be said?

[Hellrender]

This is the bat rep I made for my first 8th game. Interestingly it answers your points rather well.

 

 

Here's what was awesome

Bjorn is a beast. The character rule got him up the board and when he finally lost tgat protection he survived a whole round of focused fire from all guard not engaged in combat. He dropped a Russ and a chimera and then died to smite. Plus contributed good shooting on his way up. Smite is something to look out for btw.

 

 

 

I love bjorn, what weapon did you run him with?

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I ran plasma it was a decent all rounder. Gonna try Lascannon next see if that work. He was always one of my favorites glad to see he's been so heavily buffed

[Nrthstar]

Three games deep

 

The Good

No one has mentioned it, but I gladly will, a full blood claw unit in a rhino is good. Real good. 12" movement on a rhino, that you can now assault out of. Put Wulfen or Ragnar nearby for the rerollable charges. In 8th getting a +1 attack on the charge isn't common, so these boys with get three attacks on the charge, hit on 3's instead of 4's finally, and can be kitted up for cc with the dual pack leaders. All my previous games I ran two squads of gh in razors or foot, and one squad of bcs in a rhino. For a "fun times" tourney this weekend I am changing that to two bc squads in rhino's. Especially since I will also have two squads of Wulfen, so the 12" buff will be nice.

 

WGTDA: the deepstrike where you need, weather the storm of fire, and come in hot. I did only give them two th/ss previously, that was a mistake, now adding three. With Nids they showed up and started wrecking monsters.

 

Bjorn: Yes. Everytime. Extra CP, 5 attacks at d6 damage, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s. Character that can be screened with a 5+ fnp. Yes.

 

Long Fangs:. Great with their own built in reroll 1s. More in the takeaway.

 

The bad:

Njal himself isn't bad, but taking psychers is a gamble. 2 out of three games he accomplished nothing because of deny the witch. Jaws really only shines against slow things, and most big things are fast. Or are knights. But he did also cancel out his fair share of powers.

 

 

Takeaways:

 

I KILLED MAGNUS!

 

So I have fought Tzeentch with Magnus, Tyranids and AM with four flyers.

 

Even though Njal didn't cast much, he cancelled a lot too, so unless you want to just get take a psychic beating, play psychers. Two rune priests in power armor are the same cost as Njal in Terminator armor.

 

Named character costs. Always take the named character. Njal in tda is the same cost as a rune priest in tda with the same gear, but he gets so much more than a standard rune priest. Almost all named characters are well priced.

 

Mass flyers are problematic for assault armies. I did have two long fang packs in that game, but they weren't enough. I think there long fang packs are really needed if you're getting shoot against flyers.

 

Knights are evil. At 24 wounds and the ability to just walk out of combat, what used to take a squad of wulfen to destroy now takes so much more.

 

Bjorn is fantastic, but so are so many other big badasses. He lost to the Swarmlord in combat, but it was straight dice rolling luck. Magnus was a draw, Bjorn hit all 5 attacks, wounded with all 5, and Magnus saved all 5, but in return Bjorn saved 7 out of 9.

[Gherrick]

Lukas gives a +1 to hit aura for all BCs, translating to a 2+ in melee and a 3+ shooting. This is very frightening when you have 2 or more units of BCs in rhinos. IMO, if you are running *claws, having wulfen and lukas nearby is a must.

[Hasuro]

Lukas gives a +1 to hit aura for all BCs, translating to a 2+ in melee and a 3+ shooting. This is very frightening when you have 2 or more units of BCs in rhinos. IMO, if you are running *claws, having wulfen and lukas nearby is a must.

Moreover, +1 to hit in shooting provides immunity to "gets hot"-alike stuf.. Few packs of skyclaws with overcharged 2 plasguns each dropping around just disembarked Lukas?

Btw, as I get it, WGPL does still have same keywords as his unit, so he receives this bonus and shoot his combi-plasma on 2+.. 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Hasuro

[Stancer]

 

Lukas gives a +1 to hit aura for all BCs, translating to a 2+ in melee and a 3+ shooting. This is very frightening when you have 2 or more units of BCs in rhinos. IMO, if you are running *claws, having wulfen and lukas nearby is a must.

Moreover, +1 to hit in shooting provides immunity to "gets hot"-alike stuf.. Few packs of skyclaws with overcharged 2 plasguns each dropping around just disembarked Lukas?

Btw, as I get it, WGPL does still have same keywords as his unit, so he receives this bonus and shoot his combi-plasma on 2+.. 

 

 

+1 to hit does not give you immunity from gets hot.

If you roll a 1, its a 1 and gets hot applies.  It doesn't become 2. Its the dice roll result of the natural 1 that counts.

You MAY get to re-roll that dice, but that's another matter.

The game mechanics of 40k has always worked this way. It hasnt changed. 

[eyeslikethunder]

Pro

Thunderwolves these guys have rocked for me so far

Harald death wolf. 2+ invuln vs shooting

Wulfen these guys are such force multipliers must have

Stormwolf helfrost 2 lascanon 4 melta really kills vehicles that's 48 wounds potentially

Edited June 22, 2017 by eyeslikethunder

[CaptainStabby]

 

 

Lukas gives a +1 to hit aura for all BCs, translating to a 2+ in melee and a 3+ shooting. This is very frightening when you have 2 or more units of BCs in rhinos. IMO, if you are running *claws, having wulfen and lukas nearby is a must.

Moreover, +1 to hit in shooting provides immunity to "gets hot"-alike stuf.. Few packs of skyclaws with overcharged 2 plasguns each dropping around just disembarked Lukas?

Btw, as I get it, WGPL does still have same keywords as his unit, so he receives this bonus and shoot his combi-plasma on 2+.. 

 

 

+1 to hit does not give you immunity from gets hot.

If you roll a 1, its a 1 and gets hot applies.  It doesn't become 2. Its the dice roll result of the natural 1 that counts.

You MAY get to re-roll that dice, but that's another matter.

The game mechanics of 40k has always worked this way. It hasnt changed. 

 

Nope. Thats the way it used to work and the way it frankly should work, but according to the FAQ you check after modifiers are added.

 

TBH, they way they have FAQ'd the rerolls and modifiers simply doesn't work. The order of operations is literally un-resolveable the way they have stated it.

[Gherrick]

 

+1 to hit does not give you immunity from gets hot.

If you roll a 1, its a 1 and gets hot applies.  It doesn't become 2. Its the dice roll result of the natural 1 that counts.

You MAY get to re-roll that dice, but that's another matter.

The game mechanics of 40k has always worked this way. It hasnt changed. 

 

Nope. Thats the way it used to work and the way it frankly should work, but according to the FAQ you check after modifiers are added.

 

TBH, they way they have FAQ'd the rerolls and modifiers simply doesn't work. The order of operations is literally un-resolveable the way they have stated it.

 

Link to this FAQ please, because I believe Stabby is correct, and you are not.

[gnalbel]

 

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,

‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites

of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or

after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?

 

A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll

ability is triggered before applying modifiers.

 

For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+)

moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst

within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’

ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).

 

The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.

 

Re-rolls are applied before modifiers. In this example a single

dice is re-rolled because of the Captain’s ability, this time

resulting in a 3.

 

Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. In this example there is

a -1 modifier to the hit rolls for moving and firing a Heavy

weapon. That means that the post-re-roll scores of 2, 3 and 5

are modified to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final results to the

model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target.

 

Q: When making a hit roll with a supercharged plasma

weapon, do you determine whether a ‘1’ was rolled

before or after applying re-rolls and modifiers?

 

A: You apply all re-rolls and modifiers first.

For example, if, after re-rolls and modifiers, the final result

is then a 1 (or counts as a 1, as explained above), then the

supercharged plasma weapon injures or kills the firer.

 

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Honestly glad they spelled that out, there were a lot of interpretation flying around. It's definitely new and weird, but I fail to see where it is unresolvable

[Valerian]

They should have just gone with 'natural' 1s, but it is what it is, and at least it has been resolved.  

[Kasper_Hawser]

Just wanted to ask, has anyone tried the old Loganwing yet? I believe there's a detachment with just elites in it, so a Loganwing should be possible right? Or if not Loganwing, at least a mostly terminator army.

 

If so, roughly how large is a terminator army in a 2000 point game? I think in 7th edition, at 1500 points it would mean roughly 5 packs of 5 Terminators with varied loadouts of combis, TH/SS and Claws, plus Logan or a tooled up Wolf Lord. Given the varied expenses of combi weapons now, would 2000 8th Edition roughly equal 1500 points in 7th edition?

 

The takeaway I've been getting so far is terminators are great and far more resilient so far. But one thing I've tried and failed miserably back in 7th was pure terminator.

 

I plan to play my first game with just my dusty terminators. Wish me luck, hope it doesn't backfire. Will try to make a list at 2000.

[PeteySödes]

Got a game in last night finally and came out with a damn solid win. List was roughly

 

Rune priest

5 GH 

TLAC Razorback

 

Wolf Priest

5 GH

TLAC Razorback

 

Iron Priest on TWolf

3 Twolves

 

Axe Dread

 

Sniper Scouts

 

Long fangs (2 las, 2 HB)

TLAC Razorback (didnt end up deploying inside)

 

Fought an Ad Mech/Skitaari mashup he took some rangers, onagers, castelans, the scouting roboty pistol guys and some characters. I dont know enough about the army otherwise.

 

Broad strokes, Venerable dread tanked every shot i was worried about from the heavy hitters but lost 6 wounds to a single squad of the troops that deal 2 wounds on a 6 so that was gross. Assault cannons a flippin' great, mostly just shot basic squads but dealt a lot of wounds. I think he just spread out too much and the Dread, Twolf, Iron Priest combo just kind of steam rolled. They didn't kill his surprisingly tanky Warlord but he conceded before he got truly ganged up on. Long fangs did ok, nothing great but he rolled well on saves against them.

 

Storm shields. Never leave home without them...

[DanPesci]

Honestly glad they spelled that out, there were a lot of interpretation flying around. It's definitely new and weird, but I fail to see where it is unresolvable

 

Aye itll take a bit of getting used to, but i see no real conflicts in there.

 

So...dont move and fire plasma cannons (as unless you have buffs, you get hot on 1 or 2)

 

Lukas is indeed mint next to plasma claws, as the +1 modifier means they can never roll 1s on their shooting if he's close enough.

 

Having my first couple of small games this weekend, cant wait to try out some new stuff!

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

 

 

Honestly...

So...dont move and fire plasma cannons (as unless you have buffs, you get hot on 1 or 2)

 

Fortunately it'll only kill you if you over charge. You can shoot am regular without fear