Do the Space Wolves ever get a good win in the Horus Heresy?

[DogWelder]

So every loyalist legion gets mauled badly in the Horus Heresy. I realize that. However, every one of them gets a time to shine.

 

The Ultramarines have Calth where they fight out a phyrric victory even with all the odds against them, Sotha where they decimate a force of 20K NL with 3K Ultramarines, even Nuceria where they actually do pretty well for themselves despite being outnumbered.

 

The Imperial Fists have Phall where an average Captain outsmarts the bulk of the Iron Warriors fleet led by Perturabo himself and inflicts grievous casualties on them, the Battle of Terra where they pull off the most important holding action in the Heresy etc.

 

Hell, even the Salamanders and the Raven Guard get their time to shine in the novels. The Salamanders fight well and win over Nocturne against the Death Guard and the Raven Guard carrying out a brilliant guerilla campaign against Horus' rearguard.

 

However, the Space Wolves? Lets take a look at their battles:

 

-Prospero: While this was technically a SW victory, they needed titan legions, the Custodes, and theSisters of Silence to win. It outright states that Magnus could have wiped the SW out if he really wanted to and if the TS knew the SW were coming so could they. Not to mention the fact that the wolves were doing exactly what Horus wanted them to do which makes this more of a victory for chaos in the end.

 

-Alaxxes Nebula: The SW fleet is ambushed and decimated by the Alpha Legion. They have to retreat into the nebula where they lose a ton of ships to the gas clouds there. They are outclassed in every engagement against the Alpha Legion fleet and even when Russ finally takes command, they fail to make a breakthrough until a Dark Angel starfort comes to help. Then its revealed that Alpharius wasn't even there, meaning that the entire SW fleet and its primarch was about to be destroyed by a regular high ranking Alpha Legionnaire.

 

-Yarant: The Space Wolves make one desperate attack against the traitors advancing on Terra and are smashed to pieces by the traitor vanguard. Russ is so crippled he cannot even stand and the already reduced numbers of the SW are further culled for very little gain. In fact, if Corax and the RG did not pull of a daring rescue mission, the last of the Space Wolves and their primarch would have been killed by Abaddon (if there is a more humiliating fate in the galaxy, please let me know).

It seems the entirety of the Space Wolves involvement in the Horus Heresy involves them getting tricked and then repeatedly used as a punching bag for the traitor legions.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Caius Tadius

[Withershadow]

To be fair, they are really easy to trick or distract.  Even if they don't pause to smell every tree stump and errant butthole they come across, fake-throw a steak or tennis ball the opposite direction, and off they go!

[Morovir]

While I agree that the Wolves haven't been given a good showing so far, I don't think it's fair to say that every one of them gets time to shine.

 

For the Iron Hands, their introduction to the series has been them getting betrayed and butchered, their main novel is better off not talking about, and almost all of their other appearances seem to be to show them as inflexible and having to take lessons from the other Shattered Legions in how to fight. Even in Meduson, they are beaten pretty heavily, and in The Either, it starts with Tybalt Marr returning from destroying Meduson's fleet at Arrisak. 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Morovir

[Noserenda]

I think they get first dibs on the Sweet Terran loot after all the real Legions won the war too? 

[NKCougar]

I think that's just part of how the Heresy unfolds, honestly. Some legions get nearly annihilated, and while the Wolves weren't on Istvaan, they did get beat up pretty badly throughout the campaign. Nobody came through unscathed, and the ones that can hold up silver linings (Meduson, Raven Guard, Ultramarines) have some very dark clouds - RG and IH both got nearly entirely destroyed, IH lost their primarch (at least SW keep theirs) and I think Gloriana, RG had the mutants and lost Gloriana class, UM are nearly entirely destroyed and have to take more losses defending the 500, don't make it to terra, lose Gloriana for duration of Heresy.

 

By comparison, the Wolves took a heck of a lot of SM losses, which can be replaced, kept (at least as of right now, don't know if it survived heresy but I think it did) their Gloriana and Primarch. They may not have made any significant military victories, but they are in a better place than a lot of legions that did.

[Splog]

The Space Wolves have to go from being a depleted but still substantial and significant legion formation post Prospero, to at best a handful of chapters post Heresy/Scouring.

[DogWelder]

I think that's just part of how the Heresy unfolds, honestly. Some legions get nearly annihilated, and while the Wolves weren't on Istvaan, they did get beat up pretty badly throughout the campaign. Nobody came through unscathed, and the ones that can hold up silver linings (Meduson, Raven Guard, Ultramarines) have some very dark clouds - RG and IH both got nearly entirely destroyed, IH lost their primarch (at least SW keep theirs) and I think Gloriana, RG had the mutants and lost Gloriana class, UM are nearly entirely destroyed and have to take more losses defending the 500, don't make it to terra, lose Gloriana for duration of Heresy.

 

By comparison, the Wolves took a heck of a lot of SM losses, which can be replaced, kept (at least as of right now, don't know if it survived heresy but I think it did) their Gloriana and Primarch. They may not have made any significant military victories, but they are in a better place than a lot of legions that did.

 

I actually think the Ultramarines came out of the Heresy with the least losses percentage wise.

 

They lost 120,000 Marines on Calth and I'm assuming about 30,000 more during the Shadow Crusade and other battles leading up to the end of the Heresy. So nearly 60% of their Legion was lost. Compare to the 95+% lost by the RG, Salamanders or Iron Hands.

 

That still leaves them with 100,000 marines by the end of the Heresy. A heck of a lot more than the other legions. 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Caius Tadius

[Guest]

I have seen this same question pop up multiple times around the net. On 40klore there someone asked a writer and (if IIRC) it was something along the lines that the writers were trying to keep the "Dauntless Few" either under-strength or away from each other. Manus was killed early in the war and decimated the Iron Hand legion. Space Wolves fought at Prospero and then were harassed by Alpha Legion+allies. Blood Angels were sent on the Signus Campaign, removing them for a while. Imperial Fists were cut off by warp stones and then tasked to take Mars. Space Wolves were also an incredible danger to Chaos due to their training in SM vs SM training, so they had to be dealt a heavy blow making them combat-ineffective.

 

Now in my opinion, as much as I like Russ, he is not a strategist. He is a Tactician and to a degree Operation mindsets, he is in the fight with his men not overlooking the war or the battle. This means that he isn't going to make great strategic decisions, and this fits the Space Wolf idea. They aren't meant to fight huge expansive wars, but win battles and they thrive in that environment. This is why Russ would never be Warmaster, even though he was one of the most loyal primarchs. This is not a slight at Russ but he will make mistakes at a strategic level like rushing to attack Chaos. This isn't an insult, but simply differentiates him from Guilliman who was a strategist, or Dorn who was an operational mindset. Russ was a Blood Claw during the Horus Heresy, and he starts develop into a kind of Grey Hunter at the end and post Horus heresy. Maybe when Russ returns he will be much wiser and realize his faults and become a better warrior, a typical  Hero Norse story and not a typical Fallen-Hero story of losing himself and being a Wulfen.

 

We shouldn't be looking at it "Oh Alpha Legion stopped us, how stupid are we?" we should be looking at it as "It took a full-strength Alpha Legion to try and stop a battle-weary and crippled Space Wolf Legion, and even then we were able to escape." Yes we took a beating, but it shows how much Chaos was willing to do stop them from reaching Terra. The Dauntless Few could not be unified into a effective force otherwise the tide would turn to quickly, so it was delayed until when it was needed.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

a single pack stood between the Night Haunter and his prey. Some even survived. 

 

a pack leader swung his axe with such speed and skill Guilliman was unsure if he could have intercepted it. 

 

 

I dont feel as if the Wolves get a shinning moment of awesome in the heresy, just scenes such as the above. Most of the Wolves vaunted war skills are inferred, not seen.

 

Wait for the Scouring, when Russ and Guilliman give the traitors such a solid beating that fleeing to the hell realm of the Eye seems like a good idea.

[NKCougar]

a single pack stood between the Night Haunter and his prey. Some even survived.

 

a pack leader swung his axe with such speed and skill Guilliman was unsure if he could have intercepted it.

 

 

I dont feel as if the Wolves get a shinning moment of awesome in the heresy, just scenes such as the above. Most of the Wolves vaunted war skills are inferred, not seen.

 

Wait for the Scouring, when Russ and Guilliman give the traitors such a solid beating that fleeing to the hell realm of the Eye seems like a good idea.

The Scouring is going to be fun to read. There are legion home worlds to destroy, after all. Not to mention some loyal primarchs going batty and ripping every traitor they see into little tiny shreds.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

After some thought on this topic, I would like to request that everybody please exercise some good judgement prior to posting.

 

The Space Wolves, Rout, Vlka Fenryka, Space Furries, the Puppies, the Sixth Legion have a very dividing effect on many of posters across the Internet. Some love them, some hate them. Either is fine and completely allowed.

 

What is not allowed is the downward spiral many of the threads discussing them end up in performing, so please, be respectful to each other.

 

Follow the Tao of Bill and Ted: "Be excellent to each other"

 

 

 

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

Moderator of the B&C

Edited June 22, 2017 by Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

[b1soul]

Russ vs. Magnus and Prospero count as victories

 

Arguably the most resounding loyalist victories prior to the Siege. Perhaps only topped by Thramas.

 

I'm not sure how awesome you want the SW to be.

 

EDIT: You could say Prospero was a "qualified" victory, with the help of allies and favourable circumstances...but what victories are unqualified curb-stomps in the HH? I don't think there are any, not even Istvaan.

Edited June 22, 2017 by b1soul

[Scribe]

Russ vs. Magnus and Prospero count as victories

 

Arguably the most resounding loyalist victories prior to the Siege. Perhaps only topped by Thramas.

 

I'm not sure how awesome you want the SW to be.

 

This, anything beyond this at this point, would just be fan service really. You have nobody to blame but Abnett.

 

(I take note the good Jarl above me, and thats all I hope needs to be said on this thread.)

[AceofAllTradez]

I was always under the impression that the space wolves time to shine was during the scouring and hell even Prospero. Not sure why many feel the space wolves are entitled to some ungodly decisive victory even after Prospero. Keep in mind what Russ did to Magnus in their duel. The absurd destruction they caused on Prospero is something no other legion can claim to have accomplished.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I was always under the impression that the space wolves time to shine was during the scouring and hell even Prospero. Not sure why many feel the space wolves are entitled to some ungodly decisive victory even after Prospero. Keep in mind what Russ did to Magnus in their duel. The absurd destruction they caused on Prospero is something no other legion can claim to have accomplished.

I understand Wolf fans...dissatisfaction with the covering of Prospero so far. The below is just my point of view.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp_mTYeG_Ng

 

1. Prospero only occurred because Magnus let it happen. and then sat out most of the fight.

2. The real "victors" of Propero were the Sisters of Silence. In re-reading A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, wherever the SoS werent, the TS were slaughtering the Wolves with ease. It was only when their powers were nullified did the Wolves do any real damage (excluding the Wulfen and Russ)

3. Russ was only victorious in his duel as one of his Wolves bit Magnus at a key moment, distracting him and allowing Russ to go all WWE on him. They seemed evenly matched and traded some crazy blows

 

In that light, the "time to shine" for the Vlka Fenryka can be greatly derided.

 

So, for this Wolf (and Raven, and budding Iron Warrior...dont examine that too closely), it's mostly a waiting game for the Scouring.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

[b1soul]

Well, it's not exactly 100% clear why Russ wins...

 

The blade burst from Russ’ back and the Wolf King loosed a deafening bellow of pain. A chorus of the wolves that were not wolves added their howls to that of their master. The two enormous lupine monsters that accompanied Russ leapt upon Magnus, fastening their jaws upon his legs. Magnus slammed his fist into the black wolf’s head, driving it to the ground with a strangled yelp, its skull surely shattered. With a bellow of anger, Magnus tore the white wolf from his leg with a thought and hurled it away over the heads of the milling army at Russ’ back.

. . .

Ahriman looked past the approaching monsters to see Magnus and Russ locked in battle high above the causeway, the furious horror of their struggle obscured by ethereal fire and bursts of lightning. A flare of black light erupted and Russ cried out in agony. His blade lashed out blindly and struck a fateful blow against his foe’s most dreaded weapon: his eye.

In an instant, the pyrotechnic cascade of light and fire was extinguished

 

...but win he does, and the only loyalist primarch to do so.

[Guest]

 

I was always under the impression that the space wolves time to shine was during the scouring and hell even Prospero. Not sure why many feel the space wolves are entitled to some ungodly decisive victory even after Prospero. Keep in mind what Russ did to Magnus in their duel. The absurd destruction they caused on Prospero is something no other legion can claim to have accomplished.

 

3. Russ was only victorious in his duel as one of his Wolves bit Magnus at a key moment, distracting him and allowing Russ to go all WWE on him. They seemed evenly matched and traded some crazy blows

Well we do have the theory that Russ's wolves are actually innate psyker spirit wolves or psyker enhanced SW's as they are much larger, stronger than any Thunderwolf and were impossibly long lives and recovered from what should have been killing blows. I mean a punch to an unarmored SM head from Magnus would have reaulted in death. Though these wolves continue on.

[bluntblade]

I'd like to see a novella of the FW episode where a Grand Company(?) beats back an EC Millenial, especially as those two forces hardly ever go toe-to-toe.

[Laughingman]

Having read the Corax Anthology the battle of Yarant sounded like the kind of battle the space wolves were unsuited for. Long attritional conflicts, with limited orbital support.

[AceofAllTradez]

 

I was always under the impression that the space wolves time to shine was during the scouring and hell even Prospero. Not sure why many feel the space wolves are entitled to some ungodly decisive victory even after Prospero. Keep in mind what Russ did to Magnus in their duel. The absurd destruction they caused on Prospero is something no other legion can claim to have accomplished.

I understand Wolf fans...dissatisfaction with the covering of Prospero so far. The below is just my point of view.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp_mTYeG_Ng

 

1. Prospero only occurred because Magnus let it happen. and then sat out most of the fight.

2. The real "victors" of Propero were the Sisters of Silence. In re-reading A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, wherever the SoS werent, the TS were slaughtering the Wolves with ease. It was only when their powers were nullified did the Wolves do any real damage (excluding the Wulfen and Russ)

3. Russ was only victorious in his duel as one of his Wolves bit Magnus at a key moment, distracting him and allowing Russ to go all WWE on him. They seemed evenly matched and traded some crazy blows

 

In that light, the "time to shine" for the Vlka Fenryka can be greatly derided.

 

So, for this Wolf (and Raven, and budding Iron Warrior...dont examine that too closely), it's mostly a waiting game for the Scouring.

 

Point 3 I disagree with. If Russ's wolves were the cause of his victory then explain why both him and Magnus continued their duel after Magnus dispatched Russ's wolves? Russ's blade did not lash out the instant his wolves interfered.

[Petitioner's City]

I think it's pretty flawed to say there are any "good wins" for the Loyalists in the Heresy, and the OP's examples are not at all "good" wins.

 

 

The Ultramarines have Calth where they fight out a phyrric victory even with all the odds against them, Sotha where they decimate a force of 20K NL with 3K Ultramarines, even Nuceria where they actually do pretty well for themselves despite being outnumbered.

 

The Imperial Fists have Phall where an average Captain outsmarts the bulk of the Iron Warriors fleet led by Perturabo himself and inflicts grievous casualties on them, the Battle of Terra where they pull off the most important holding action in the Heresy etc.

 

Hell, even the Salamanders and the Raven Guard get their time to shine in the novels. The Salamanders fight well and win over Nocturne against the Death Guard and the Raven Guard carrying out a brilliant guerilla campaign against Horus' rearguard.

 

The thing is, it's the biggest, most horrendous, most disastrous event in human history, and every victory is not a victory. Every "win" is also a loss, because the only thing that happens each time is humanity looses. Every victory is Pyrrhic, from Prospero to Terra. But it also reflects real conflicts, wherein "great" victories were also losses. I think a problem here is trying to hold other grey defeats and Pyrrhic victories, where 10000s or 1000s of loyalist astartes and thousands more mortals die and sometimes, as with Calth, millions of civilians - events which lead to huge strategic defeats and disasters also - and portraying the small gains in them as "good" (if there are any gains) ... and then taking the VI's victories and missions where "mission objective" did to a much greater extent occur, and call them "bad", seems silly - or worse, blind.

 

Furthermore, it's the fething Heresy - it is never "good". There is never a "good" win. Half of the enemies have been seduced by a monster or a demagogue and led unwittingly into damnation - others have chosen it, seeing in the Emperor a worse monster. Worse, every person the VI or other loyalists have to kill - they were all once your POV character's brother or comrade or ally. Having to kill them, or being killed by them, is one further step to humanity's damnation. 

 

Sorry to rant, but none of what the OP describes as a supposedly "good win" for the other legions is really that, and worse, matches or is worse than what he uses for the VI. 

 

What is this? Which legion fans deserve the most pity because their RPG legion have suffered so much? It's a weird team/fannish perspective to take, because it feels utterly ideologically blind... 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Petitioner's City

[bluntblade]

Retibution, I think, mentions some Wolves facing down a Millenial of Emperor's Children and winning. That could make for a neat story.

[b1soul]

Yeah, but retribution is like a collection of half-forgotten skirmishes and minor battles (I am unaware of the SW vs. EC bit) . . . I think OP is looking for something on the scale of Prospero but completely in the Wolves' favour with no asterisks

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

I was always under the impression that the space wolves time to shine was during the scouring and hell even Prospero. Not sure why many feel the space wolves are entitled to some ungodly decisive victory even after Prospero. Keep in mind what Russ did to Magnus in their duel. The absurd destruction they caused on Prospero is something no other legion can claim to have accomplished.

I understand Wolf fans...dissatisfaction with the covering of Prospero so far. The below is just my point of view.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp_mTYeG_Ng

 

1. Prospero only occurred because Magnus let it happen. and then sat out most of the fight.

2. The real "victors" of Propero were the Sisters of Silence. In re-reading A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, wherever the SoS werent, the TS were slaughtering the Wolves with ease. It was only when their powers were nullified did the Wolves do any real damage (excluding the Wulfen and Russ)

3. Russ was only victorious in his duel as one of his Wolves bit Magnus at a key moment, distracting him and allowing Russ to go all WWE on him. They seemed evenly matched and traded some crazy blows

 

In that light, the "time to shine" for the Vlka Fenryka can be greatly derided.

 

So, for this Wolf (and Raven, and budding Iron Warrior...dont examine that too closely), it's mostly a waiting game for the Scouring.

 

Point 3 I disagree with. If Russ's wolves were the cause of his victory then explain why both him and Magnus continued their duel after Magnus dispatched Russ's wolves? Russ's blade did not lash out the instant his wolves interfered.

 

 

Okay, here's why I think the Wolves were the distraction root for Russ's victory:

Fight goining down between demi-gods

Magnus stabs Russ with his sword, it erupts from his back. Russ is reeling.

Wolves then pounce on Magnus, get stomped for their attempt. Russ is still reeling.

Next time Ahriman sees the fight, black lightning strikes Russ and he is now in agony.

Russ makes blind swing and strikes the Eye of Magnus.

Now Magnus is reeling, and Russ breaks his back.

 

Russ only lasts long enough to strike his lucky blow as Magnus is shock-putting the Wolves into the ranks of the Vlka Fenryka

 

WLK

 

 

I was always under the impression that the space wolves time to shine was during the scouring and hell even Prospero. Not sure why many feel the space wolves are entitled to some ungodly decisive victory even after Prospero. Keep in mind what Russ did to Magnus in their duel. The absurd destruction they caused on Prospero is something no other legion can claim to have accomplished.

3. Russ was only victorious in his duel as one of his Wolves bit Magnus at a key moment, distracting him and allowing Russ to go all WWE on him. They seemed evenly matched and traded some crazy blows

Well we do have the theory that Russ's wolves are actually innate psyker spirit wolves or psyker enhanced SW's as they are much larger, stronger than any Thunderwolf and were impossibly long lives and recovered from what should have been killing blows. I mean a punch to an unarmored SM head from Magnus would have reaulted in death. Though these wolves continue on.

 

 

That's a theory? 

I remember them interacting with the tutularies, but must have missed the rest of that

[NKCougar]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was always under the impression that the space wolves time to shine was during the scouring and hell even Prospero. Not sure why many feel the space wolves are entitled to some ungodly decisive victory even after Prospero. Keep in mind what Russ did to Magnus in their duel. The absurd destruction they caused on Prospero is something no other legion can claim to have accomplished.

I understand Wolf fans...dissatisfaction with the covering of Prospero so far. The below is just my point of view.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp_mTYeG_Ng

 

1. Prospero only occurred because Magnus let it happen. and then sat out most of the fight.

2. The real "victors" of Propero were the Sisters of Silence. In re-reading A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, wherever the SoS werent, the TS were slaughtering the Wolves with ease. It was only when their powers were nullified did the Wolves do any real damage (excluding the Wulfen and Russ)

3. Russ was only victorious in his duel as one of his Wolves bit Magnus at a key moment, distracting him and allowing Russ to go all WWE on him. They seemed evenly matched and traded some crazy blows

 

In that light, the "time to shine" for the Vlka Fenryka can be greatly derided.

 

So, for this Wolf (and Raven, and budding Iron Warrior...dont examine that too closely), it's mostly a waiting game for the Scouring.

Point 3 I disagree with. If Russ's wolves were the cause of his victory then explain why both him and Magnus continued their duel after Magnus dispatched Russ's wolves? Russ's blade did not lash out the instant his wolves interfered.

Okay, here's why I think the Wolves were the distraction root for Russ's victory:

Fight goining down between demi-gods

Magnus stabs Russ with his sword, it erupts from his back. Russ is reeling.

Wolves then pounce on Magnus, get stomped for their attempt. Russ is still reeling.

Next time Ahriman sees the fight, black lightning strikes Russ and he is now in agony.

Russ makes blind swing and strikes the Eye of Magnus.

Now Magnus is reeling, and Russ breaks his back.

 

Russ only lasts long enough to strike his lucky blow as Magnus is shock-putting the Wolves into the ranks of the Vlka Fenryka

 

WLK

 

 

I was always under the impression that the space wolves time to shine was during the scouring and hell even Prospero. Not sure why many feel the space wolves are entitled to some ungodly decisive victory even after Prospero. Keep in mind what Russ did to Magnus in their duel. The absurd destruction they caused on Prospero is something no other legion can claim to have accomplished.

3. Russ was only victorious in his duel as one of his Wolves bit Magnus at a key moment, distracting him and allowing Russ to go all WWE on him. They seemed evenly matched and traded some crazy blows

Well we do have the theory that Russ's wolves are actually innate psyker spirit wolves or psyker enhanced SW's as they are much larger, stronger than any Thunderwolf and were impossibly long lives and recovered from what should have been killing blows. I mean a punch to an unarmored SM head from Magnus would have reaulted in death. Though these wolves continue on.

That's a theory?

I remember them interacting with the tutularies, but must have missed the rest of that

There have been some potential hints to it. Theory now is that Russ was an Alpha level psyker on the same level as Lorgar, but with far less control - "I am not Russ, to be able to howl and have every wolf on the world howl with me".

 

His howl has been shown as a figurative wall/wave of psychic shock.

 

also, at the end of Scars, Magnus may have hinted to Russ having psychic powers - ‘I’m glad you came to see me, Jaghatai. We always saw eye-to-eye, you and me. You were brittle, but at least you spoke the truth. Unlike that bastard Russ. Do you know what he is, underneath? Do you have any idea what Leman Russ really hides inside those furs and totems? Here’s a clue – his Space Wolves have to cover their every axe blade with runes, lest they scream their nightmares into the void. Is that natural?'

 

I could believe that though, Russ being a psyker would be absolutely perfect.