Do the Space Wolves ever get a good win in the Horus Heresy?

[HeritorA]

 

Why how is that - the thread is called 'do-the-space-wolves-ever-get-a-good-win-in-the-horus-heresy' and we get back to Prospero all over again?

Anyone read something after that event? Or is it a verification for the fact that where were none (space wolves victories)

Yeah, I don't think they've had any real victories yet. Prospero was a loss for the Imperium, they limped out of the Alaxxes nebula, then got rekt on Yarant, and I'm sure worse is to come. That's alright, though, because this is the Horus Heresy and there's no real victory to be had from it.

 

Exactly. Do not forget the 'Wolf Cull' disaster that will lead to Yarant.

 

On the IX and Signus - you can't call it one of Sangy greatest victories. He lost 40-50000 of Space Marines, he was wounded, he was distracted from the 'real war', his flaw surfaces, his sons were flawed for eternity, 'Red Angel' was born etc. etc.

[Indefragable]

 

On the IX and Signus - you can't call it one of Sangy greatest victories. He lost 40-50000 of Space Marines, he was wounded, he was distracted from the 'real war', his flaw surfaces, his sons were flawed for eternity, 'Red Angel' was born etc. etc.

 

 

I'm not calling it a victory. I said i could see it in a positive light if I wanted to, much like how one could construe all the SW battles of the HH so far in a positive light. Perspective.

[NKCougar]

 

 

 

Why how is that - the thread is called 'do-the-space-wolves-ever-get-a-good-win-in-the-horus-heresy' and we get back to Prospero all over again?

Anyone read something after that event? Or is it a verification for the fact that where were none (space wolves victories)

Yeah, I don't think they've had any real victories yet. Prospero was a loss for the Imperium, they limped out of the Alaxxes nebula, then got rekt on Yarant, and I'm sure worse is to come. That's alright, though, because this is the Horus Heresy and there's no real victory to be had from it.

Exactly. Do not forget the 'Wolf Cull' disaster that will lead to Yarant.

 

On the IX and Signus - you can't call it one of Sangy greatest victories. He lost 40-50000 of Space Marines, he was wounded, he was distracted from the 'real war', his flaw surfaces, his sons were flawed for eternity, 'Red Angel' was born etc. etc.

Check again, definitely wasn't one of the IX's victories at all, but Horus' victory and a huge one at that - even though there was no reason not to trust him at the time, if Sanguinius hadn't been stuck at Signus there was a good chance he could have stopped the Heresy before it really got rolling on Terra.

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

Why how is that - the thread is called 'do-the-space-wolves-ever-get-a-good-win-in-the-horus-heresy' and we get back to Prospero all over again?

Anyone read something after that event? Or is it a verification for the fact that where were none (space wolves victories)

Yeah, I don't think they've had any real victories yet. Prospero was a loss for the Imperium, they limped out of the Alaxxes nebula, then got rekt on Yarant, and I'm sure worse is to come. That's alright, though, because this is the Horus Heresy and there's no real victory to be had from it.

Exactly. Do not forget the 'Wolf Cull' disaster that will lead to Yarant.

 

On the IX and Signus - you can't call it one of Sangy greatest victories. He lost 40-50000 of Space Marines, he was wounded, he was distracted from the 'real war', his flaw surfaces, his sons were flawed for eternity, 'Red Angel' was born etc. etc.

Check again, definitely wasn't one of the IX's victories at all, but Horus' victory and a huge one at that - even though there was no reason not to trust him at the time, if Sanguinius hadn't been stuck at Signus there was a good chance he could have stopped the Heresy before it really got rolling on Terra.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to 'he could have stopped the Heresy before it really got rolling on Terra.' One Legion would not be able to stop the rollercoster of several Legions.

 

Indefragable

Yes, perspective. You are correct.

[TheRealMcCagh]

I think he meant one of Horus' greatest victories, for the reasons you mentioned. Hard to call Signus a Blood Angel victory, other than the fact that they survived the trap

[HeritorA]

I think he meant one of Horus' greatest victories, for the reasons you mentioned. Hard to call Signus a Blood Angel victory, other than the fact that they survived the trap

Probably.

It was lose for the Horus from the tactical view (plans failed) - but win from the strategic view.

It was a victory for BA from the tactical view - but horrendous disaster on a strategic plain

[Mellow]

If any of you think that Sanguinius would have given Horus a good kicking you're sorely mistaken. Sanguinius loved his brothers and was too much of a big girl to do anything to them except cry and talk about his feelings.

 

The only reason he even attacked Horus in the siege was because Horus was already in the process of attacking.

 

To Sanguinius Daddy's palace > Brotherly love

[Ascanius]

 

It seems the entirety of the Space Wolves involvement in the Horus Heresy involves them getting tricked and then repeatedly used as a punching bag for the traitor legions.

 

Maybe that's fine?

 

I don't understand the partisan thing of "I want my favourite guys to always have at least some time to shine."

 

Sometimes people have extremely bad runs of fortune. Think of it like your favourite sports team, if you have one; there will be times in their history where they've played badly, come bottom of the table, lost key personnel, and generally taken a beating.

 

My family supports Collingwood in Australian rules football, and they had a run from 1959 to 1989 where they consistently failed to make the finals, or made them but choked horribly in the semis or grand final, et cetera. It was legendary; they even named it the Colliwobbles! Didn't stop the club from being the largest and arguably most fiercely supported in the entire league for all of that time. It also made for a hell of a celebration when they finally did win a grand final in 1990.

 

If you think the Space Wolves are cool, they're cool whether or not they come out looking like winners in the Horus Heresy narrative. Maybe they're even cooler because they took a hammering then. I certainly feel that way a bit about the Iron Hands, who definitely have it worse than any other Legion even once you count in Shadrak Meduson and co.

[Huggtand]

I can understand the sentiment that you want your favorite guys to shine and for me personally the Wolves actually gets those moments.

 

In the larger narrative they indeed have a bit of a bad streak But the thing is that they never give up or lose their spirit even when they are faces with almost certain destruction at Yarrant. They face everything with their dry death defying humor and thats whats make them cool

 

In the small narratives they do have their movements where they shine. Not as a legion with a great battle (no loyalist gets those, its the Heresy after all) but in the small stories. Take Faffnr Bludbroder and his pack as an example where my favorites kick ass. As long as we get those stories I am happy.

 

What I want is for them to stop being so lazy and do more stuff! They went on a two year holliday after Prospero before Alaxxes. And a four year nap until Yarrant!
I need to know what wacky adventures they have on all their free time

 

I hope we see more of Thirteen Stars Falling in the future and Lemans campaign against Horus

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

Why how is that - the thread is called 'do-the-space-wolves-ever-get-a-good-win-in-the-horus-heresy' and we get back to Prospero all over again?

Anyone read something after that event? Or is it a verification for the fact that where were none (space wolves victories)

Yeah, I don't think they've had any real victories yet. Prospero was a loss for the Imperium, they limped out of the Alaxxes nebula, then got rekt on Yarant, and I'm sure worse is to come. That's alright, though, because this is the Horus Heresy and there's no real victory to be had from it.

Exactly. Do not forget the 'Wolf Cull' disaster that will lead to Yarant.

 

On the IX and Signus - you can't call it one of Sangy greatest victories. He lost 40-50000 of Space Marines, he was wounded, he was distracted from the 'real war', his flaw surfaces, his sons were flawed for eternity, 'Red Angel' was born etc. etc.

Where did you get those numbers from?

 

So far all I could find was, "thousands of casualties" and "hundreds upon hundreds"

 

Which implies it wasn't 50,000, but significantly lower.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Triszin]

I for one, enjoy the fact that wolves are getting beatings, yet always rise up to defend no matter their losses.

[b1soul]

Regarding the SW, I still hold that Prospero was the most significant Loyalist victory up till the Siege

 

Yeah...the SW had help, but what do you expect? You're not going to invade a psychic Legion homeworld without support.

 

 

As for Sang, I really do hope we start seeing an Angel of Wrath, rather than an Angel of Soft Emotions and Tears

[High Marshal Bohemond]

These arguments could be made for several of the first founding legions. Look at my favorite the Imperial Fists and their Primarch Rogal Dorn. Throughout their history they are know for their resilience, tenacity, stubbornness and military acumen but most demonstrations of this in writing shows them being pushed to the brink of destruction but holding the line and winning Pyrrhic victories. Even though Dorn in several sources is consider one of the best military minds of the Primarchs and likely would have been Warmaster but he is the reluctant hero. Dorn is often misrepresented or not fully developed, he became the defacto Warmaster during and after the siege, his crusade after the defense of Terra kind of kicks off the scouring and the Fist play a major part in that but I am sure they will get little love in place of Girlyman. I see Dorn and Guilliman as two sides of the same coin, they are both very similar in many ways but I think prior to and immediately after the Heresy is what makes me think Dorn is a much deeper character that is just waiting for a strong writer to delve into. He empowers worlds they conquer but does not subjugate them (even though one of his successors is a little more brutal....my Subjugators...lol) He gets pigeon holed into being a niche mind because of the defense of Terra and his being selected by the Emperor to fortify the Palace.....but there is more than enough out there to show he is so much more.  

 

So that diatribe is solely to point out that regardless how you feel about your favorite legion and their primarch as well as the other loyalist legions, they all have their moments and play their part, some more than others, that is just how military actions occur. During a pitched battle you could have four units bogged down in heavy fighting while three other units see almost no action during the battle, it just happens that way and I think the HH stories do a good job of showing that.

Edited July 11, 2017 by High Marshal Bohemond

[DogWelder]

These arguments could be made for several of the first founding legions. Look at my favorite the Imperial Fists and their Primarch Rogal Dorn. Throughout their history they are know for their resilience, tenacity, stubbornness and military acumen but most demonstrations of this in writing shows them being pushed to the brink of destruction but holding the line and winning Pyrrhic victories. Even though Dorn in several sources is consider one of the best military minds of the Primarchs and likely would have been Warmaster but he is the reluctant hero. Dorn is often misrepresented or not fully developed, he became the defacto Warmaster during and after the siege, his crusade after the defense of Terra kind of kicks off the scouring and the Fist play a major part in that but I am sure they will get little love in place of Girlyman. I see Dorn and Guilliman as two sides of the same coin, they are both very similar in many ways but I think prior to and immediately after the Heresy is what makes me think Dorn is a much deeper character that is just waiting for a strong writer to delve into. He empowers worlds they conquer but does not subjugate them (even though one of his successors is a little more brutal....my Subjugators...lol) He gets pigeon holed into being a niche mind because of the defense of Terra and his being selected by the Emperor to fortify the Palace.....but there is more than enough out there to show he is so much more.  

 

So that diatribe is solely to point out that regardless how you feel about your favorite legion and their primarch as well as the other loyalist legions, they all have their moments and play their part, some more than others, that is just how military actions occur. During a pitched battle you could have four units bogged down in heavy fighting while three other units see almost no action during the battle, it just happens that way and I think the HH stories do a good job of showing that.

 

To that end I actually want to see the power struggle between Dorn and Guilliman after the Siege of Terra. With Dorn being focused on bringing vengeance to the fleeing traitors and Guilliman concentrating on consolidating the Imperium as a whole and rebuilding its political structure from the ground up. The more Dorn is missing from Terra, the greater Guiiliman's influence grows until one day Dorn returns to find that Guilliman has effectively become Lord Commander of the Imperium, supplanting him as regent of Terra and issuing decrees like the Codex Astartes.

 

I'd love to read about the two clashing in the political arena. 

[Withershadow]

Regarding Signus, there were several plans under way that worked at cross purposes.  Erebus and the first batch of daemons were all about converting him, Horus and the Khorne daemon (iirc) changed it to "kill Sanguinius".  The disagreement over the fallout is what got Erebus his facial.

[bluntblade]

I think you'll find a correct term is Chogorian facelift

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

If you think the Space Wolves are cool, they're cool whether or not they come out looking like winners in the Horus Heresy narrative. Maybe they're even cooler because they took a hammering then. I certainly feel that way a bit about the Iron Hands, who definitely have it worse than any other Legion even once you count in Shadrak Meduson and co.

 

 

An alternative explanation for the dissatisfaction. Part of the issue is that the Wolves' role in the Hersey has changed. They've essentially gone from the cavalry to the red shirts. Before the current HH series, the Wolves did Prospero, which was a success, skirmished around a bit (win some, lose some, the action at Alaxxes allowed the Scars to reach Terra), met up with the DAs, and legged it to Terra, where their imminent arrival forced the climactic showdown on the Vengeful Spirit. They then mop up what's left of the Traitors, and take a leading role in the Scouring, the Heresy having not hit them as hard as the Legions at Istvaan and the palace. Also, Nikea made sense and there wasn't this constant, irritating 'SWs are hypocrites because Rune Priests! Are Rune Priests psykers?' stuff.

 

Whereas now, it's a cavalcade of failure and questionable decisions. Irritation at the perceived sidelining of the VI themselves at Prospero. Alaxxes (why were the Wolves stuck in a nebula for 2 years anyway?) has gone from a successful holding action that gave Khan the opportunity to defend Terra, to the Scars hanging the Wolves out to dry and a Legion-ending defeat is only averted by a surprise contingent of forgotten DAs (not even their main force, and off shoot of Luther's off shoot). Yarant has gone from a minor, company-level defeat not even worth mentioning in most sources to 'the Wolf Cull', with a crippled Russ and potentially Istvaan V-level casualties for the VI (and they only survive, because this time the RG rescue them). It's reaching a point where the question has to be asked if the Wolves will still be in the picture as a force come the Scouring, given the apparently catastrophic beating they take at every turn.

 

Compare to the Iron Hands (who do have a claim for 'most screwed Legion by the Heresy'). Their thing has always been centered around taking a hammering, thanks to Istvaan and the loss of Ferrus. However, it could be argued that they're actually benefiting from the HH series. They've gone from 'Drop Site Massacre, lost Primarch, that's about it' to 'they take a mighty hammering and are shattered, but the survivors, like Meduson and Morr, do a bunch of cool things, even with a fair bit of success'. If you liked the IHs before, despite the hammering and minor role, the new fluff is an added bonus. Not so for the Wolves, where a lot of the new fluff (Inferno itself wasn't too bad) only seems to shaft the Legion, without anything awesome to compensate, making them seem far different/worse (ymmv) than the force that drew you in before the current HH series.

 

That's just my take though .

[A D-B]

 

 

If you think the Space Wolves are cool, they're cool whether or not they come out looking like winners in the Horus Heresy narrative. Maybe they're even cooler because they took a hammering then. I certainly feel that way a bit about the Iron Hands, who definitely have it worse than any other Legion even once you count in Shadrak Meduson and co.

 

 

An alternative explanation for the dissatisfaction. Part of the issue is that the Wolves' role in the Hersey has changed. They've essentially gone from the cavalry to the red shirts. Before the current HH series, the Wolves did Prospero, which was a success, skirmished around a bit (win some, lose some, the action at Alaxxes allowed the Scars to reach Terra), met up with the DAs, and legged it to Terra, where their imminent arrival forced the climactic showdown on the Vengeful Spirit. They then mop up what's left of the Traitors, and take a leading role in the Scouring, the Heresy having not hit them as hard as the Legions at Istvaan and the palace. Also, Nikea made sense and there wasn't this constant, irritating 'SWs are hypocrites because Rune Priests! Are Rune Priests psykers?' stuff.

 

Whereas now, it's a cavalcade of failure and questionable decisions. Irritation at the perceived sidelining of the VI themselves at Prospero. Alaxxes (why were the Wolves stuck in a nebula for 2 years anyway?) has gone from a successful holding action that gave Khan the opportunity to defend Terra, to the Scars hanging the Wolves out to dry and a Legion-ending defeat is only averted by a surprise contingent of forgotten DAs (not even their main force, and off shoot of Luther's off shoot). Yarant has gone from a minor, company-level defeat not even worth mentioning in most sources to 'the Wolf Cull', with a crippled Russ and potentially Istvaan V-level casualties for the VI (and they only survive, because this time the RG rescue them). It's reaching a point where the question has to be asked if the Wolves will still be in the picture as a force come the Scouring, given the apparently catastrophic beating they take at every turn.

 

Compare to the Iron Hands (who do have a claim for 'most screwed Legion by the Heresy'). Their thing has always been centered around taking a hammering, thanks to Istvaan and the loss of Ferrus. However, it could be argued that they're actually benefiting from the HH series. They've gone from 'Drop Site Massacre, lost Primarch, that's about it' to 'they take a mighty hammering and are shattered, but the survivors, like Meduson and Morr, do a bunch of cool things, even with a fair bit of success'. If you liked the IHs before, despite the hammering and minor role, the new fluff is an added bonus. Not so for the Wolves, where a lot of the new fluff (Inferno itself wasn't too bad) only seems to shaft the Legion, without anything awesome to compensate, making them seem far different/worse (ymmv) than the force that drew you in before the current HH series.

 

That's just my take though .

 

Some really interesting points, dude. Thanks for elaborating on them, I appreciate the insight.

[Vesper]

 

 Yarant has gone from a minor, company-level defeat not even worth mentioning in most sources to 'the Wolf Cull', with a crippled Russ and potentially Istvaan V-level casualties for the VI (and they only survive, because this time the RG rescue them).

I would gladly get a source on that, from what I know, the only stuff we've had on Yarant prior to the HH fleshing out by Black Library was : "The Space Wolves are routed on Yarant", with notes that the Alpha Legion and Abaddon are present there.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, because I'm not yet omniscient, but I don't think there was any mention of company-level engagement. So I've always assumed it was a meaningful engagement worth mentioning, since it was mentioned unlike thousands other clashes. And being routed doesn't sound awesome.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Vesper

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

 Yarant has gone from a minor, company-level defeat not even worth mentioning in most sources to 'the Wolf Cull', with a crippled Russ and potentially Istvaan V-level casualties for the VI (and they only survive, because this time the RG rescue them).

I would gladly get a source on that, from what I know, the only stuff we've had on Yarant prior to the HH fleshing out by Black Library was : "The Space Wolves are routed on Yarant", with notes that the Alpha Legion and Abaddon are present there.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, because I'm not yet omniscient, but I don't think there was any mention of company-level engagement.

 

Hell, I didn't even have that quote. The only mentions I could even find of it in the older accounts of the Heresy I have access to (the lack of mentions being a big part of the 'it must've been pretty minor' impression) came from the old Index Astartes series. It's mentioned in the Black Legion one, as a campaign Abaddon fought in, but that's it, no mention of scale, opposition, or even who won, just 'he led his SoH Terminators at Yarant'. It's also mentioned in the AL one, where they specifically defeat a company of SWs, but that's it, no indication of a larger, Legion-scale, battle that they were a minor element of, so the obvious implication is of a company-level engagement.

[Mellow]

So to answer the OPs question. No, they don't get a win. Not now. Not ever. Even that new series had their home system being utterly ruined by Chaos ... by Magnus.

[Vesper]

 

 

 

 Yarant has gone from a minor, company-level defeat not even worth mentioning in most sources to 'the Wolf Cull', with a crippled Russ and potentially Istvaan V-level casualties for the VI (and they only survive, because this time the RG rescue them).

I would gladly get a source on that, from what I know, the only stuff we've had on Yarant prior to the HH fleshing out by Black Library was : "The Space Wolves are routed on Yarant", with notes that the Alpha Legion and Abaddon are present there.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, because I'm not yet omniscient, but I don't think there was any mention of company-level engagement.

 

Hell, I didn't even have that quote. The only mentions I could even find of it in the older accounts of the Heresy I have access to (the lack of mentions being a big part of the 'it must've been pretty minor' impression) came from the old Index Astartes series. It's mentioned in the Black Legion one, as a campaign Abaddon fought in, but that's it, no mention of scale, opposition, or even who won, just 'he led his SoH Terminators at Yarant'. It's also mentioned in the AL one, where they specifically defeat a company of SWs, but that's it, no indication of a larger, Legion-scale, battle that they were a minor element of, so the obvious implication is of a company-level engagement.

I'll check that out, thank you.

[1ncarnadine]

 

Hell, I didn't even have that quote. The only mentions I could even find of it in the older accounts of the Heresy I have access to (the lack of mentions being a big part of the 'it must've been pretty minor' impression) came from the old Index Astartes series. It's mentioned in the Black Legion one, as a campaign Abaddon fought in, but that's it, no mention of scale, opposition, or even who won, just 'he led his SoH Terminators at Yarant'. It's also mentioned in the AL one, where they specifically defeat a company of SWs, but that's it, no indication of a larger, Legion-scale, battle that they were a minor element of, so the obvious implication is of a company-level engagement.

 

I've been buried in my garage re-organizing lately, and found my old copy of 2nd Edition Codex Chaos last week. While paging through it I remember finding at least one reference to Yarant. I'll try and dig it back out. Pretty sure it was in Abaddon's character entry and was just listing the major battles he fought at in the Heresy, but maybe there's something there. Actually, if it lists Yarant as a major battle at all I guess that's something.

 

Edit - Found two!

One under the Alpha Legion:

"The brethren of the hydra inflicted stinging defeats on the loyalists at Tallarn, Yarant and dozens of smaller outposts before moving onwards into the Ultima Segmentum like an all destroying comet."

One under Abaddon:

"He led the Terminator armoured Sons of Horus in campaigns on Istvaan, Yarant and in the siege of the Imperial palace on Earth."

Edited July 12, 2017 by LetsYouDown

[DogWelder]

 

 

 Yarant has gone from a minor, company-level defeat not even worth mentioning in most sources to 'the Wolf Cull', with a crippled Russ and potentially Istvaan V-level casualties for the VI (and they only survive, because this time the RG rescue them).

I would gladly get a source on that, from what I know, the only stuff we've had on Yarant prior to the HH fleshing out by Black Library was : "The Space Wolves are routed on Yarant", with notes that the Alpha Legion and Abaddon are present there.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, because I'm not yet omniscient, but I don't think there was any mention of company-level engagement. So I've always assumed it was a meaningful engagement worth mentioning, since it was mentioned unlike thousands other clashes. And being routed doesn't sound awesome.

 

 

The source for the Disaster at Yarant is the short story Weregeld in the Corax series.

 

There, the Raven Guard find the Space Wolf Legion decimated and broken on the plains of Yarant, facing down the combined forces of the Traitor Vanguard that is advancing on Terra. Russ is so crippled that he is unable to even stand or speak properly when Corax comes to see him. He's literally on life support there and Abaddon is racing forward with the Justerian Terminators to finish off the Wolf King and his officers.

 

Vengeful Spirit indicates that Russ and the Wolves were planning once last desperate strike into the heart of the Traitor Vanguard with the aim of taking out Horus before he reaches the Sol System as fitting the "Emperor's executioners". It even states that he brought a special weapon given to him by the Emperor, the "Wolfspear" to do that. 

 

However, after Molech, Horus has essentially become a near Emperor-level God and is fully aware of Russ and his intentions.

 

With this knowledge, its not hard to guess what happened at Yarant.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Caius Tadius

[Vesper]

@Caius

I was refering to pre-HH series sources. Like Index Astartes and codices.

 

EDIT : typo.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Vesper