Do the Space Wolves ever get a good win in the Horus Heresy?

[AceofAllTradez]

I still have a hard time seeing how the wolves were the sole cause of his victory. The way I interpret the text is that we don't actually know how much time has passed in between when the wolves interfere and when the lighting strikes Russ, so in my opinion its strange to claim that Russ won due to his wolves interfering as these could be two separate events. Since we are dealing with primarchs its possible Russ could have recovered from the the sword through his body without his wolves stepping in. We can't assume that the fight was over once Magnus stabs Russ.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was always under the impression that the space wolves time to shine was during the scouring and hell even Prospero. Not sure why many feel the space wolves are entitled to some ungodly decisive victory even after Prospero. Keep in mind what Russ did to Magnus in their duel. The absurd destruction they caused on Prospero is something no other legion can claim to have accomplished.

I understand Wolf fans...dissatisfaction with the covering of Prospero so far. The below is just my point of view.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp_mTYeG_Ng

 

1. Prospero only occurred because Magnus let it happen. and then sat out most of the fight.

2. The real "victors" of Propero were the Sisters of Silence. In re-reading A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, wherever the SoS werent, the TS were slaughtering the Wolves with ease. It was only when their powers were nullified did the Wolves do any real damage (excluding the Wulfen and Russ)

3. Russ was only victorious in his duel as one of his Wolves bit Magnus at a key moment, distracting him and allowing Russ to go all WWE on him. They seemed evenly matched and traded some crazy blows

 

In that light, the "time to shine" for the Vlka Fenryka can be greatly derided.

 

So, for this Wolf (and Raven, and budding Iron Warrior...dont examine that too closely), it's mostly a waiting game for the Scouring.

Point 3 I disagree with. If Russ's wolves were the cause of his victory then explain why both him and Magnus continued their duel after Magnus dispatched Russ's wolves? Russ's blade did not lash out the instant his wolves interfered.

Okay, here's why I think the Wolves were the distraction root for Russ's victory:

Fight goining down between demi-gods

Magnus stabs Russ with his sword, it erupts from his back. Russ is reeling.

Wolves then pounce on Magnus, get stomped for their attempt. Russ is still reeling.

Next time Ahriman sees the fight, black lightning strikes Russ and he is now in agony.

Russ makes blind swing and strikes the Eye of Magnus.

Now Magnus is reeling, and Russ breaks his back.

 

Russ only lasts long enough to strike his lucky blow as Magnus is shock-putting the Wolves into the ranks of the Vlka Fenryka

 

WLK

 

 

I was always under the impression that the space wolves time to shine was during the scouring and hell even Prospero. Not sure why many feel the space wolves are entitled to some ungodly decisive victory even after Prospero. Keep in mind what Russ did to Magnus in their duel. The absurd destruction they caused on Prospero is something no other legion can claim to have accomplished.

3. Russ was only victorious in his duel as one of his Wolves bit Magnus at a key moment, distracting him and allowing Russ to go all WWE on him. They seemed evenly matched and traded some crazy blows

Well we do have the theory that Russ's wolves are actually innate psyker spirit wolves or psyker enhanced SW's as they are much larger, stronger than any Thunderwolf and were impossibly long lives and recovered from what should have been killing blows. I mean a punch to an unarmored SM head from Magnus would have reaulted in death. Though these wolves continue on.

That's a theory?

I remember them interacting with the tutularies, but must have missed the rest of that

There have been some potential hints to it. Theory now is that Russ was an Alpha level psyker on the same level as Lorgar, but with far less control - "I am not Russ, to be able to howl and have every wolf on the world howl with me".

 

His howl has been shown as a figurative wall/wave of psychic shock.

 

also, at the end of Scars, Magnus may have hinted to Russ having psychic powers - ‘I’m glad you came to see me, Jaghatai. We always saw eye-to-eye, you and me. You were brittle, but at least you spoke the truth. Unlike that bastard Russ. Do you know what he is, underneath? Do you have any idea what Leman Russ really hides inside those furs and totems? Here’s a clue – his Space Wolves have to cover their every axe blade with runes, lest they scream their nightmares into the void. Is that natural?'

 

I could believe that though, Russ being a psyker would be absolutely perfect.

Interesting.

 

I took that second quote to mean what Russ (and all the Primarchs) were created from.

According to daemons, which are about as trustworthy as Magnus in my eyes, the Emperor created the primarchs mixing Warp and technology. (This has been further back up in multiple places)

 

So I thought he meant a being of the Warp, who showed extraordinary abilities (even for a Primarch), was being hypocritical in his stance on psykers

(Which shows how little Magnus understood. It was not the fact that psykers existed that Russ objected, but HOW they were used. Magnus never employed caution but pursued any knowledge without restraint)

[Withershadow]

Oh please, Russ didn't consider what his priests did as psychic powers, but some mumbo-jumbo about channeling the forces of life and death of Fenris.

[drooling blood]

a single pack stood between the Night Haunter and his prey. Some even survived. 

 

a pack leader swung his axe with such speed and skill Guilliman was unsure if he could have intercepted it. 

 

 

I dont feel as if the Wolves get a shinning moment of awesome in the heresy, just scenes such as the above. Most of the Wolves vaunted war skills are inferred, not seen.

 

Wait for the Scouring, when Russ and Guilliman give the traitors such a solid beating that fleeing to the hell realm of the Eye seems like a good idea.

A watch pack fell under the teeth of the BA. So thats no saying much.

 

As for Yarrant. Something Ko'd Russ. Might have something to do with the runes Lokan carved on the path to the bridge on the Vengeful Spirit and he ran into something very large and very khaosy.

A story yet to be told I guess.

 

So Russ brings the power of Fenris where ever he goes.

The Khan aint sposta be psykic either but he brings the lightning. They just mr miyagi it. But the Khan is at least self aware.

Its also been stated that he could butcher Malcador and everyone in said room with very little effort.

Edited June 23, 2017 by drooling blood

[NKCougar]

 

 

a single pack stood between the Night Haunter and his prey. Some even survived.

 

a pack leader swung his axe with such speed and skill Guilliman was unsure if he could have intercepted it.

 

 

I dont feel as if the Wolves get a shinning moment of awesome in the heresy, just scenes such as the above. Most of the Wolves vaunted war skills are inferred, not seen.

 

Wait for the Scouring, when Russ and Guilliman give the traitors such a solid beating that fleeing to the hell realm of the Eye seems like a good idea.

A watch pack fell under the teeth of the BA. So thats no saying much.

 

As for Yarrant. Something Ko'd Russ. Might have something to do with the runes Lokan carved on the path to the bridge on the Vengeful Spirit and he ran into something very large and very khaosy.

A story yet to be told I guess.

 

So Russ brings the power of Fenris where ever he goes.

The Khan aint sposta be psykic either but he brings the lightning. They just mr miyagi it. But the Khan is at least self aware.

Its also been stated that he could butcher Malcador and everyone in said room with very little effort.

 

To be fair to the BA watchpack, (spoilers for Fear to Tread below)

 

The BA were under the effects of the Red Thirst, which 1. Made them crazy and 2. Made them care nothing about injuries they took. Also, the pack approached them as they would a friendly, not opfor.

 

In addition to the above, the BA group was let by the Flesh Tearer, Captain Amit. Not a whole lot of Astartes can face him on an equal level, let alone when he has the advantage of surprise.

 

On Yarant, I hope it turns out to be either a trap, loaded with heavy artillery trying to bomb Russ into dust, or a very large, very powerful Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince. Anything else would just be wrong, no Astartes, not even a Termie armored Abaddon with a bunch of Termie armored pals could take Russ. Look to Chris Wraight's Wolf King and Russ soloing a contemptor, then massacring the XX legion's finest. So I'll be heavily disappointed if they try to write it as a bunch of Astartes wounding Russ so terribly.

[betrayer41]

 

 

a single pack stood between the Night Haunter and his prey. Some even survived.

 

a pack leader swung his axe with such speed and skill Guilliman was unsure if he could have intercepted it.

 

 

I dont feel as if the Wolves get a shinning moment of awesome in the heresy, just scenes such as the above. Most of the Wolves vaunted war skills are inferred, not seen.

 

Wait for the Scouring, when Russ and Guilliman give the traitors such a solid beating that fleeing to the hell realm of the Eye seems like a good idea.

A watch pack fell under the teeth of the BA. So thats no saying much.

 

As for Yarrant. Something Ko'd Russ. Might have something to do with the runes Lokan carved on the path to the bridge on the Vengeful Spirit and he ran into something very large and very khaosy.

A story yet to be told I guess.

 

So Russ brings the power of Fenris where ever he goes.

The Khan aint sposta be psykic either but he brings the lightning. They just mr miyagi it. But the Khan is at least self aware.

Its also been stated that he could butcher Malcador and everyone in said room with very little effort.

 

To be fair to the BA watchpack, (spoilers for Fear to Tread below)

 

The BA were under the effects of the Red Thirst, which 1. Made them crazy and 2. Made them care nothing about injuries they took. Also, the pack approached them as they would a friendly, not opfor.

 

In addition to the above, the BA group was let by the Flesh Tearer, Captain Amit. Not a whole lot of Astartes can face him on an equal level, let alone when he has the advantage of surprise.

 

On Yarant, I hope it turns out to be either a trap, loaded with heavy artillery trying to bomb Russ into dust, or a very large, very powerful Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince. Anything else would just be wrong, no Astartes, not even a Termie armored Abaddon with a bunch of Termie armored pals could take Russ. Look to Chris Wraight's Wolf King and Russ soloing a contemptor, then massacring the XX legion's finest. So I'll be heavily disappointed if they try to write it as a bunch of Astartes wounding Russ so terribly.

 

Thanks,

 

I don't think the wolves falling to red thirst "friendly" BA is at all relevant.

[bluntblade]

Yeah. Amit is enough of a combat monster that no one who faced him in the fighting pits survived.

[Guest]

Oh please, Russ didn't consider what his priests did as psychic powers, but some mumbo-jumbo about channeling the forces of life and death of Fenris.

 

Except that in WoM we know that Fenris has psyker abilities and a "world spirit", which even Magnus has admitted to and attempted to corrupt. It unleashed giant lava wolves, fauna avatars, among other things. We now have evidence of Fenris not being a normal planet and may act as a catalyst for rune priests.

[Loesh]

Sure, but that's still psychic powers, I would say 'Geomortis' specifically which the most radical name for earth related psychic powers ever. Fenris's World Spirit just means it has an imprint on the warp that you can draw from, the reverence for the planet always meant to me it likely had some such imprint, as all planets do inside the immaterium.

[A D-B]

 

Oh please, Russ didn't consider what his priests did as psychic powers, but some mumbo-jumbo about channeling the forces of life and death of Fenris.

 

Except that in WoM we know that Fenris has psyker abilities and a "world spirit", which even Magnus has admitted to and attempted to corrupt. It unleashed giant lava wolves, fauna avatars, among other things. We now have evidence of Fenris not being a normal planet and may act as a catalyst for rune priests.

 

All of which comes from the warp.

 

EDIT: Damn you, Loesh. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by A D-B

[Vesper]

As per the good old Slaves to Darkness / Realms of Chaos delicious background on warp and stuff, every living thing throws its echo in the warp. From grass to insects to planets.

 

 

On Yarant, I hope it turns out to be either a trap, loaded with heavy artillery trying to bomb Russ into dust, or a very large, very powerful Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince. Anything else would just be wrong, no Astartes, not even a Termie armored Abaddon with a bunch of Termie armored pals could take Russ. Look to Chris Wraight's Wolf King and Russ soloing a contemptor, then massacring the XX legion's finest. So I'll be heavily disappointed if they try to write it as a bunch of Astartes wounding Russ so terribly.

 

The guys who kill a Primarch in Talon of Horus ? Yeah, totally unable to put a Primarch in comatose.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Vesper

[Guest]

Sure, but that's still psychic powers, I would say 'Geomortis' specifically which the most radical name for earth related psychic powers ever. Fenris's World Spirit just means it has an imprint on the warp that you can draw from, the reverence for the planet always meant to me it likely had some such imprint, as all planets do inside the immaterium.

Yep agreed, but this is the great flaw of Russ (as it seems most primarchs have at least 1 great flaw) and that is his ignorance. He is ignorant of the warp and how it works, he believe since his rune priests tap into Fenris, being ignorant that Fenris is merely a "filter". To say though that the rune priests draw directly from the warp is wrong. It would be like saying "you drink bottled water, so you must get your water from the ocean." While technically true, isn't the full details and people won't want to hear they're drinking ocean water.

 

Not to deny rune priests are not psykers, they just don't delve into it as deep as some psykers and use a "filter" to do so.

 

As per the good old Slaves to Darkness / Realms of Chaos delicious background on warp and stuff, every living thing throws its echo in the warp. From grass to insects to planets.

 

 

 

On Yarant, I hope it turns out to be either a trap, loaded with heavy artillery trying to bomb Russ into dust, or a very large, very powerful Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince. Anything else would just be wrong, no Astartes, not even a Termie armored Abaddon with a bunch of Termie armored pals could take Russ. Look to Chris Wraight's Wolf King and Russ soloing a contemptor, then massacring the XX legion's finest. So I'll be heavily disappointed if they try to write it as a bunch of Astartes wounding Russ so terribly.

The guys who kill a Primarch in Talon of Horus ? Yeah, totally unable to put a Primarch in comatose.

Except he was a clone not a full primarch. We don't know how close the primarch clone are to real primarchs, but without the fusion of warp energy and whatever else the Emperor used, I doubt clones are anywhere near as powerful.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Caldersson

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

With the Wolves, its not about winning. Their main trait is loyalty, to the point of near insanity. They are a lot like the Riders of Rohan. At Pelennor fields Theoden King led 6000 riders in a charge against tens of thousands of orcs, and they break them. The Haradrim show up on Mumakil. What does Theoden do? He orders a charge into them. They could have turned and run, but if they did, then they wouldn't be Rohirrim. That kind of mindset is what makes the Wolves dangerous, to the enemy and themselves. That they didn't drive themselves to extinction during the heresy and scouring is a miracle.

 

[Scribe]

 

Oh please, Russ didn't consider what his priests did as psychic powers, but some mumbo-jumbo about channeling the forces of life and death of Fenris.

 

Except that in WoM we know that Fenris has psyker abilities and a "world spirit", which even Magnus has admitted to and attempted to corrupt. It unleashed giant lava wolves, fauna avatars, among other things. We now have evidence of Fenris not being a normal planet and may act as a catalyst for rune priests.

 

 

Which is more pure fan service for wolf fans. Of COURSE you get a special 'its totally not the warp' source of warp power.

[RapatoR]

 

  Except he was a clone not a full primarch. We don't know how close the primarch clone are to real primarchs, but without the fusion of warp energy and whatever else the Emperor used, I doubt clones are anywhere near as powerful.  

Well I don't have the quote at hand but I am pretty sure A D-B said there is nothing that suggests the cloned Horus was weaker than original - just look at the mayhem the clone caused before stopped by Abaddon.

[NKCougar]

 

 

Except he was a clone not a full primarch. We don't know how close the primarch clone are to real primarchs, but without the fusion of warp energy and whatever else the Emperor used, I doubt clones are anywhere near as powerful.

Well I don't have the quote at hand but I am pretty sure A D-B said there is nothing that suggests the cloned Horus was weaker than original - just look at the mayhem the clone caused before stopped by Abaddon.

Horus also stopped trying to kill everyone after he recognized Abaddon, they had been in the warp for however long, with everything that entails, and had a post-Rubric Khayon along with their small army of Astartes and whatever Nefertari is. On top of that, Horus was completely unsupported - Russ will have his legion and personal guard, along with armor divisions. So while you're still correct, and large enough numbers of Astartes could do it, I think Horus Reborn is a poor comparison.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

Oh please, Russ didn't consider what his priests did as psychic powers, but some mumbo-jumbo about channeling the forces of life and death of Fenris.

 

Except that in WoM we know that Fenris has psyker abilities and a "world spirit", which even Magnus has admitted to and attempted to corrupt. It unleashed giant lava wolves, fauna avatars, among other things. We now have evidence of Fenris not being a normal planet and may act as a catalyst for rune priests.

 

 

Which is more pure fan service for wolf fans. Of COURSE you get a special 'its totally not the warp' source of warp power.

 

 

Not all Wolf fans...I found it pretty dumb myself.

[Huggtand]

As for the wolves being underwritten, I haven’t really thought of it in those terms. They have good stories and interesting characters and that’s what matters for me  

 

The Routs (and TS since they are so intertwined) story is a Greek tragedy at heart where the heroes good intensions are leading them to deeper tragedy and downfall, that’s the setting of the saga.

 

Both Magnus and Russ is tragic heroes and can’t behave in other ways. That would both break the classic format and lessen the story. Therefor it follows that both sides must misunderstand each other and make bad decisions with good intensions or follow a path of duty that also leads to tragedy. If one side was superior or we would not have such a good or interesting story.

 

The only little thing that can irk me a little is that the Rout is always saved by someone. I don’t mind that they get mauled at every turn since they fight against the odds or that they make reckless decisions (they are the Rout  )  but it would be nice if they could slink out of a situation by themselves one time at least 

[bluntblade]

There's nothing to say Abaddon wouldn't bring whole Dreadnought talons, Knights, daemons and all sort of other nasties to bear if he had an angry Russ to deal with.

[Mellow]

Well, it's not exactly 100% clear why Russ wins...

 

The blade burst from Russ’ back and the Wolf King loosed a deafening bellow of pain. A chorus of the wolves that were not wolves added their howls to that of their master. The two enormous lupine monsters that accompanied Russ leapt upon Magnus, fastening their jaws upon his legs. Magnus slammed his fist into the black wolf’s head, driving it to the ground with a strangled yelp, its skull surely shattered. With a bellow of anger, Magnus tore the white wolf from his leg with a thought and hurled it away over the heads of the milling army at Russ’ back.

. . .

Ahriman looked past the approaching monsters to see Magnus and Russ locked in battle high above the causeway, the furious horror of their struggle obscured by ethereal fire and bursts of lightning. A flare of black light erupted and Russ cried out in agony. His blade lashed out blindly and struck a fateful blow against his foe’s most dreaded weapon: his eye.

In an instant, the pyrotechnic cascade of light and fire was extinguished

 

...but win he does, and the only loyalist primarch to do so.

You forget about Dorn!

[Huggtand]

I do hope that we get a face-off between Russ and Horus on the Vengeful Spirit, and that is why Russ get so beaten up. Horus after Molech is way just way to strong! Yarant is just where they retreat to make their last stand when the ambush on Horus fleet dont succeed. 

 

To have Horus henchemen beat down Leman wouldn´t feel satisfying at all 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Huggtand

[bluntblade]

Horus is too powerful to not simply kill Russ, though. Nope, give me Russ as Boromir, except with misssiles, volkite fire and plasma instead of arrows.

[Mellow]

Russ is going to get his arse handed to him by a couple of Traitor Astartes Mournival members.

 

Thus proving one thing. Being a traitor makes you BETTER.

[Karthak]

Russ vs. Magnus and Prospero count as victories

 

Arguably the most resounding loyalist victories prior to the Siege. Perhaps only topped by Thramas.

 

I'm not sure how awesome you want the SW to be.

 

EDIT: You could say Prospero was a "qualified" victory, with the help of allies and favourable circumstances...but what victories are unqualified curb-stomps in the HH? I don't think there are any, not even Istvaan.

I really don't see Prospero as a victory for the Wolves. Hell, like Khayon says in Talon, the whole thing was Horus Lupercal's triumph if it was anyone's.

[Vesper]

From their point of view, it is their victory.