Do the Space Wolves ever get a good win in the Horus Heresy?

[NKCougar]

From their point of view, it is their victory.

It's treason, then.

 

Yes, the VI do count it as victory. From a neutral view, I'd call it a Pyrrhic victory for the Wolves, but a huge, massive loss for the Imperium as a whole/TACTICAL GENIUS hurrrr for Horus when taken in the big picture - Magnus was, at the time Horus tricked Russ, loyal (though the breaking of the Edict did put that on shaky ground to start with).

[AceofAllTradez]

 

From their point of view, it is their victory.

It's treason, then.

 

Yes, the VI do count it as victory. From a neutral view, I'd call it a Pyrrhic victory for the Wolves, but a huge, massive loss for the Imperium as a whole/TACTICAL GENIUS hurrrr for Horus when taken in the big picture - Magnus was, at the time Horus tricked Russ, loyal (though the breaking of the Edict did put that on shaky ground to start with).

 

Traitor to me he ignored the edict. The word of the Emperor himself. There was no saving Magnus he was doomed from the start.

[NKCougar]

 

 

 

From their point of view, it is their victory.

It's treason, then.

 

Yes, the VI do count it as victory. From a neutral view, I'd call it a Pyrrhic victory for the Wolves, but a huge, massive loss for the Imperium as a whole/TACTICAL GENIUS hurrrr for Horus when taken in the big picture - Magnus was, at the time Horus tricked Russ, loyal (though the breaking of the Edict did put that on shaky ground to start with).

Traitor to me he ignored the edict. The word of the Emperor himself. There was no saving Magnus he was doomed from the start.

Except the Emperor hadn't sent Russ to kill Magnus, but to apprehend him and return him to Terra. Magnus had made himself unbelievably useful to the Emperor with what he did - most likely, the Emperor needed Magnus' help in the Imperial Dungeon/Webway Project to attempt a repair on the broken sections.

[AceofAllTradez]

 

 

 

From their point of view, it is their victory.

It's treason, then.

 

Yes, the VI do count it as victory. From a neutral view, I'd call it a Pyrrhic victory for the Wolves, but a huge, massive loss for the Imperium as a whole/TACTICAL GENIUS hurrrr for Horus when taken in the big picture - Magnus was, at the time Horus tricked Russ, loyal (though the breaking of the Edict did put that on shaky ground to start with).

Traitor to me he ignored the edict. The word of the Emperor himself. There was no saving Magnus he was doomed from the start.

Except the Emperor hadn't sent Russ to kill Magnus, but to apprehend him and return him to Terra. Magnus had made himself unbelievably useful to the Emperor with what he did - most likely, the Emperor needed Magnus' help in the Imperial Dungeon/Webway Project to attempt a repair on the broken sections.

 

Most certainly. However Russ gave Magnus the opportunity to surrender, but unfortunately for Magnus shutting down the entire planet's communications seemed to backfire on him as Russ' message appeared to go unnoticed. Alas chaos triumphs on this one.

[Withershadow]

The way I remember it, Russ did not try any conventional communications, he was convinced that Hauser was Magnus' proxy, and was trying to communicate with his brother by talking at this scared and confused human, lol.

 

I still have a hard time seeing how the wolves were the sole cause of his victory. The way I interpret the text is that we don't actually know how much time has passed in between when the wolves interfere and when the lighting strikes Russ, so in my opinion its strange to claim that Russ won due to his wolves interfering as these could be two separate events. Since we are dealing with primarchs its possible Russ could have recovered from the the sword through his body without his wolves stepping in. We can't assume that the fight was over once Magnus stabs Russ.

It had nothing to do with Wolves or anything else, Russ won because Tzeench needed him to win.  Do you really think that blind swing was just "lucky" in striking "the only point of vulnerability" in a psychic behemoth of pain?

 

 

Traitor to me he ignored the edict. The word of the Emperor himself. There was no saving Magnus he was doomed from the start.

Then by that logic at least half of the loyalist Primarchs are traitors, including Russ and the Wolves.  Russ felt the edict did not apply to wolves because of the aforementioned Fenris blah blah blah.

 

Blood Angels violated the edict to save Sanguinius, Dark Angels didn't care, and White Scars ignored it much like the Wolves did.  You could even argue Dorn violated the order, because he was supposed to return the psykers to regular active duty, and instead he locked them up in a sensory deprivation chamber, because that's a smart thing to do with psykers...

Edited June 25, 2017 by Withershadow

[Huggtand]

The way I remember it, Russ did not try any conventional communications, he was convinced that Hauser was Magnus' proxy, and was trying to communicate with his brother by talking at this scared and confused human, lol.

 

In Inferno (p34) it is explained that he did broadcast in conventional communications. You can se the attemt to use Hauser as a conduit as a last ditch attemt to reach out to his brother before it is to late.

[Withershadow]

Fair enough, Magnus did shut down all layers of sensors and defenses, and even killed one of his Captains to mask the Sanction Fleet's approach, so it makes sense.  It's been a while since I've read Prospero Burns, and what I remember is overshadowed by wet leopard growls. :P

[Huggtand]

Dont remind me of those wet growls 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Huggtand

[HeritorA]

Wet Leopard Growl...

As for the wins > Space Wolves are indeed except for the Razing of Prospero suffered mostly defeats and the only victory is that they were not annihilated during retreat - Alaxxes, Horus assassination attempt > Yarant. That's all were loses.

Maybe the time will come for them to shine during the Scouring? Cause right now it's almost all defeats

[Guest Triszin]

 

 

 

 

Traitor to me he ignored the edict. The word of the Emperor himself. There was no saving Magnus he was doomed from the start.

Except the Emperor hadn't sent Russ to kill Magnus, but to apprehend him and return him to Terra. Magnus had made himself unbelievably useful to the Emperor with what he did - most likely, the Emperor needed Magnus' help in the Imperial Dungeon/Webway Project to attempt a repair on the broken sections.

 

Most certainly. However Russ gave Magnus the opportunity to surrender, but unfortunately for Magnus shutting down the entire planet's communications seemed to backfire on him as Russ' message appeared to go unnoticed. Alas chaos triumphs on this one.

 

I beleive there was a chaos worshipper marine that was manning the coms and distorted prevented Russ's request of magnus to surrender from getting to magnus

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

I thought Russ spoke through Kasper Hawser thinking he was spying on the Wolves for Magnus.

[HeritorA]

I thought Russ spoke through Kasper Hawser thinking he was spying on the Wolves for Magnus.

That's he said indeed - I will not go to the wet leopard growl Prospero Burns, but that's what he said

[NKCougar]

 

 

I thought Russ spoke through Kasper Hawser thinking he was spying on the Wolves for Magnus.

That's he said indeed - I will not go to the wet leopard growl Prospero Burns, but that's what he said

From what I've gathered from this thread, Russ tried two different methods of contacting Magnus in two separate books - I think Inferno is the one that he tried standard comms, then PB his psychic Skype.

 

Apparently in inferno, the systems were: either shut down or a chaos corrupted marine messed with them.

[MasterofMankind]

As I recall it myself they tried standard comms in Prospero Burns as well, and when that failed they tried through Hawser.

 

As for the comm systems they were shutdown by a fatalistic Magnus; he didn't want anyone to know that death was coming.

[hopkins]

As I recall it myself they tried standard comms in Prospero Burns as well, and when that failed they tried through Hawser.

 

As for the comm systems they were shutdown by a fatalistic Magnus; he didn't want anyone to know that death was coming.

 

#justasplanned 

[bluntblade]

So the parameters for a good win disqualify "a bunch of Wolves wiped out an entire EC Millenial"? Because, while not a win on the scale of Calth, Nuceria or what have you, that sounds like a decent win to me.

[Knight of the Raven]

I'm wondering if there's a 'break the haughty' element to the Space Wolves' defeats in the Horus Heresy. Experience has taught me people tend to be more interested in seeing the arrogant humbled than actual criminals punished. I've seen fans of this universe more annoyed at Guilliman's perceived self-importance than at Kurze being a murderous, torture happy lunatic or Lorgar setting off the Heresy because 'all he wanted was the truth.'

 

And that's not even getting into Ancient Greek tragedies, where showing how 'unacceptable' hubris is was one of the driving forces for writing these plays in the first place.

 

There might also be a form of damage control after Dan Abnett's take on the Rout, since we've mentioned him.

[NKCougar]

I'm wondering if there's a 'break the haughty' element to the Space Wolves' defeats in the Horus Heresy. Experience has taught me people tend to be more interested in seeing the arrogant humbled than actual criminals punished. I've seen fans of this universe more annoyed at Guilliman's perceived self-importance than at Kurze being a murderous, torture happy lunatic or Lorgar setting off the Heresy because 'all he wanted was the truth.'

 

And that's not even getting into Ancient Greek tragedies, where showing how 'unacceptable' hubris is was one of the driving forces for writing these plays in the first place.

 

There might also be a form of damage control after Dan Abnett's take on the Rout, since we've mentioned him.

I'm not sure I would attribute it to a humbling based on Abnett and his portrayal, IIRC most if not all of the beatings so far were already in the lore. I think the Greek comparison is pretty spot-on though, there are plenty of those overarching themes in the setting.

[Knight of the Raven]

I wasn't necessarily linking the two reasons I outlined together. The Space Wolves' hubris predates Dan Abnett's contributions if I'm not mistaken, even if it peaked at 'believing you know more than you actually do.'

 

At least the Rout learned from their humbling. The same can't be said of the Thousand Sons, unfortunately.

 

There's also the very distinct possibility some of the writers actually love the Space Wolves, unlike what some of their fans suspect, and just happen to love making their favorite characters suffer. I know I daydream a lot about that.

[DogWelder]

I actually notice this a lot too, Raven.

 

While I usually like the Traitor POV books, the sheer mental gymnastics the writers go through to make the traitor Primarchs look like they have any shred of moral argument is hilarious.

[NKCougar]

I actually notice this a lot too, Raven.

 

While I usually like the Traitor POV books, the sheer mental gymnastics the writers go through to make the traitor Primarchs look like they have any shred of moral argument is hilarious.

Would be bad for the setting if they didn't for at least some of them, they can't all be Fulgrim. I wouldn't even say they have a moral argument for what they do, just that their motives are shown and they're made sympathetic characters - most of the traitors are ones that got poo'd on by the Emperor in some perceived way (Angron's fellow slaves, Monarchia, warp corruption, Razing of Prospero - although that one is on Horus, total insanity, etc) and those are usually shown as turning points for those primarchs.

[HeritorA]

Why how is that - the thread is called 'do-the-space-wolves-ever-get-a-good-win-in-the-horus-heresy' and we get back to Prospero all over again?

Anyone read something after that event? Or is it a verification for the fact that where were none (space wolves victories)

[NKCougar]

Why how is that - the thread is called 'do-the-space-wolves-ever-get-a-good-win-in-the-horus-heresy' and we get back to Prospero all over again?

Anyone read something after that event? Or is it a verification for the fact that where were none (space wolves victories)

Yeah, I don't think they've had any real victories yet. Prospero was a loss for the Imperium, they limped out of the Alaxxes nebula, then got rekt on Yarant, and I'm sure worse is to come. That's alright, though, because this is the Horus Heresy and there's no real victory to be had from it.

[Indefragable]

So....is the leopard's throat really slick when it growls? Or is it a leopard that just stepped out of a pond that is growling?

 

As much as I love Abnett, he may never live that one down.

 

https://youtu.be/RksH86wBfGw?t=37s

 

I actually notice this a lot too, Raven.

 

While I usually like the Traitor POV books, the sheer mental gymnastics the writers go through to make the traitor Primarchs look like they have any shred of moral argument is hilarious.

 

^This. All credit due to the BL authors for making the traitor primarchs interesting and sympathetic. Too much so. Reminds me of Game of Thrones

where Theon murders and burns a couple young farm children to show how badass he is. But wait! Crisis inverted! It's ok, guys....the children he murdered in cold blood weren't the ones we thought they were so no big deal. Whew!

 

   THE ???     

 

***************

 

Now, as for the Space Wolves not getting their true victory....

 

I will concede to the original poster's point that we lack relatively open-and-shut cases of the SW just straight-up kicking and chewing bubblegum. I can understand where that sentiment comes from and to a certain degree the SW do suffer a bit of the Worf Effect (although I also feel that Lucius and Khârn are the Worfs of the HH series to a certain degree).

 

However, a few things to consider:

 

-nearly every single book, short story, and/or audio drama has references to the SW and how badass they are. The "happy as a clam" phrase of the HH series seems to be "deadly as a Space Wolf." That's a compliment.

 

-Prospero was a helluva battle. I can see the angle of "but the SW 'needed' support," but here's something to consider: the TK Sons are arguably one of the most powerful Legions in existence. Every single one of them is essentially a Librarian. Imagine if every single model in your 8th Ed army could cast Smite. Wowzers. So the fact that the Space Wolves were considered deadly enough to still take them on with a high probability of winning speaks highly of itself. "Of all the forces at our disposal, who do we trust to still get the job done even taking 50, 60, 70, 80% casualties on the beachhead?" Like the US Army Rangers at Pointe du Hoc.

 

-again, this doesn't really feel good from your perspective, but the fact that it took Prospero, Alexxes, AND Yarrant to even stand a chance of taking the SW out of the fight is a sort of compliment. Compare that to the Ultramarines where Calth essentially made them turtle up for the rest of the war (more or less). Or the Salamanders and Raven Guard where (more or less) one epic battle essentially removed their piece from the chessboard (yes, they did a lot more after Istvaan but the large-scale strategic initiative was definitely lost).

 

-For another non-SW angle,

Hidden Content

I get annoyed that the Blood Angels/Sanguinius have done pretty much jack this whole HH series. But, if I want to look at it from a different angle, the fact that it took Horus personally commanding the entire IX Legion to go to a sector of space that was cut off from the rest of the galaxy and an entire system worth of daemons thrown at them--which they had never even encountered at this point, and we have been shown repeatedly just how deadly daemons are -- to stall them just long enough for the rest of the Heresy to get off the launchpad, is sort of a compliment to the IX Legion

.

 

-another similar non-SW angle

Hidden Content

Ferrus Manus falls into this territory as well. He is one of the "dauntless few" yet the only things we know he actually did are A) build a hammer for his bro   B ) contract a minor case of decapitation. He demands a backstory to be fleshed out and pre-Istvaan exploits to be explored. Dude is entirely reputation at this point in time

 

So I feel your pain and understand where you are coming from, but at the same time I think--in true Rout fashion-- you can easily laugh at the circumstance and annoy your enemies by considering everything a compliment and victory for your dudes.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Indefragable

[NKCougar]

So....is the leopard's throat really slick when it growls? Or is it a leopard that just stepped out of a pond that is growling?

 

As much as I love Abnett, he may never live that one down.

 

 

 

I actually notice this a lot too, Raven.

 

While I usually like the Traitor POV books, the sheer mental gymnastics the writers go through to make the traitor Primarchs look like they have any shred of moral argument is hilarious.

^This. All credit due to the BL authors for making the traitor primarchs interesting and sympathetic. Too much so. Reminds me of Game of Thrones

where Theon murders and burns a couple young farm children to show how badass he is. But wait! Crisis inverted! It's ok, guys....the children he murdered in cold blood weren't the ones we thought they were so no big deal. Whew!

 

THE ???

 

***************

 

Now, as for the Space Wolves not getting their true victory....

 

I will concede to the original poster's point that we lack relatively open-and-shut cases of the SW just straight-up kicking and chewing bubblegum. I can understand where that sentiment comes from and to a certain degree the SW do suffer a bit of the Worf Effect (although I also feel that Lucius and Khârn are the Worfs of the HH series to a certain degree).

 

However, a few things to consider:

 

-nearly every single book, short story, and/or audio drama has references to the SW and how badass they are. The "happy as a clam" phrase of the HH series seems to be "deadly as a Space Wolf." That's a compliment.

 

-Prospero was a helluva battle. I can see the angle of "but the SW 'needed' support," but here's something to consider: the TK Sons are arguably one of the most powerful Legions in existence. Every single one of them is essentially a Librarian. Imagine if every single model in your 8th Ed army could cast Smite. Wowzers. So the fact that the Space Wolves were considered deadly enough to still take them on with a high probability of winning speaks highly of itself. "Of all the forces at our disposal, who do we trust to still get the job done even taking 50, 60, 70, 80% casualties on the beachhead?" Like the US Army Rangers at Pointe du Hoc.

 

-again, this doesn't really feel good from your perspective, but the fact that it took Prospero, Alexxes, AND Yarrant to even stand a chance of taking the SW out of the fight is a sort of compliment. Compare that to the Ultramarines where Calth essentially made them turtle up for the rest of the war (more or less). Or the Salamanders and Raven Guard where (more or less) one epic battle essentially removed their piece from the chessboard (yes, they did a lot more after Istvaan but the large-scale strategic initiative was definitely lost).

 

-For another non-SW angle,

Hidden Content

I get annoyed that the Blood Angels/Sanguinius have done pretty much jack this whole HH series. But, if I want to look at it from a different angle, the fact that it took Horus personally commanding the entire IX Legion to go to a sector of space that was cut off from the rest of the galaxy and an entire system worth of daemons thrown at them--which they had never even encountered at this point, and we have been shown repeatedly just how deadly daemons are -- to stall them just long enough for the rest of the Heresy to get off the launchpad, is sort of a compliment to the IX Legion

.

 

So I feel your pain and understand where you are coming from, but at the same time I think--in true Rout fashion-- you can easily laugh at the circumstance and annoy your enemies by considering everything a compliment and victory for your dudes.

On the IX:

 

Horus ordering them to Signus is frankly one of his greatest victories in the Heresy. They are one of the larger legions, somewhere between 120-160 thousand - that's a whole lot of Astartes. More importantly, it tied Sanguinius up long enough for two things to happen: first, the Ruinstorm cutting the galaxy up and inhibiting free movement greatly. Second, Molech. If Sanguinius had caught wind of Istvaan before being trapped at Signus or found out some other way, he would have come straight for Horus, with one of the few loyal legions that could go toe-to-toe with the full XVI legion. He also would have been forced to deal with Sanguinius, which pre-Molech, would have been a tossup - Angron and Horus were the only two capable of standing on even footing with Sanguinius, any other primarch (Magnus is possible; but it would seem that Sanguinius has some psychic ability as well) would have no chance at all.

 

So while he didn't turn the IX or their Primarch, it still gave him enough time to get rolling and reach Molech, where Sanguinius became essentially irrelevant to his plans.