Do the Space Wolves ever get a good win in the Horus Heresy?

[DogWelder]

@Caius

I was refering pre-HH series sources. Like Index Astartes and codices.

 

Ah, the Forge World Books were as far back as I went tbh. I didn't really check the Index Astartes since I wasn't sure if they were canon anymore.

[Roomsky]

I think it's less of an issue of the Wolves getting a "poor" showing as the other loyalist legions getting too positive a showing. 

 

The elaboration of the vast war that is the heresy has sprouted victories for the loyalists that just weren't there before, an effort to highlight the incongruity of the traitors forces. I think this probably happened a little too early, and still happens a little too frequently. Horus all but obliterated 3 legions, and then had 2 more batter themselves bloody. And, speaking of Prospero, there was no real reason for Russ doubt those orders so it probably could have happened to anyone, no one had any reason to suspect Horus. 

 

Anyway, what should probably be a rather one-sided affair has become a bit more balanced, which is fine, John French in particular does a good job of showing Horus pulling his metaphorical hair out over his allies' constant sabotaging of what should be an easy win. But they do get to Terra, and for that to mean anything they need to have enough strength for that to matter which means they need to hold greater progress under their belt. I think this has been forgotten because the series has transformed into a setting of its own, but the broader it becomes the more the point is lost. Horus is a tactical genius. Horus led half the legions against the other half and made sure to cripple them beforehand. If we think in terms of "oh, the spacewolves deserve more victories, its not fair that they are always losing," then I don't think the idea of war is really being grasped here.

 

It's fine for the Wolves to roll in victories pre-heresy and post-heresy, but this is the heresy where the Warmaster did the inconceivable and facerolled the Imperium. It may seem unfair, but fairness shouldn't really be factoring into the equation. 

 

A whole other can of worms is that storytelling has little to do with whether a faction wins or loses, if they're interesting loss can be more interesting (and many times more noteworthy) than victory. Much as I love books like Praetorian of Dorn, it doesn;t do much to enhance the threat of the traitor forces. In that regard, the Wolves losing is more narratively competent than the Fists winning.

 

TL:DR - no, but that doesn't mean they should

[DogWelder]

Its just that every single other Legion has a moment/battle in the Heresy they can point to and say they won.

 

The Ultramarines have Calth (Phyrric victory but one nonetheless), Sotha (20-1 kill ratio on Night Lords) and Astagar (massive Word Bearer+ World Eater invasion w/ Titan support defeated with just 600 Astartes)

 

The Blood Angels have Signus (ruined Erebus' plans to convert the Angel, took down Ka'banda etc.)

 

The Dark Angels have Thramas (wiped out 1/5th of the Night Lords and shattered the traitor Legion)

 

The White Scars have Catallus (successfully got a bulk of their Legion to Terra after terrorizing the flanks of the traitors and almost killed Mortarion)

 

The Imperial FIsts have Pluto (literally killed Alpharius, the first Traitor Primarch to go down and defeated the Alpha Legion fleet sent to cripple the Sol system's defences)

 

The Raven Guard have numerous engagements where they harassed the enemy from behind (The Perfect Fortress and the like)

 

The Iron Hands have Bodt (where Autek Mor destroyed the main recruiting world of the World Eaters) as well as the plethora of targets Meduson struck at

 

The Salamanders have Nocturne (where they defeated a large Death Guard force intent on killing Vulkan and resurrected their primarch)

 

The Space Wolves need such a moment. No matter how small it is, to show that they managed to achieve something-anything during the Heresy besides being played by Horus at Prospero.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Caius Tadius

[Loesh]

I mean, I honestly kind of view that as an illusion of focus personally. Sure the Shattered Legions get some wins in, but it's on the macro level more irritating the traitor legions rather then doing anything on the grand scale of the White Scars. In the long view they still take it the roughest, getting wholesale massacred, losing their Primarchs, and while valiantly defending a few pockets they are ultimately rundown and butchered, in some cases the evacuation of loyalists elements created a bodycount larger then the worth of the actual squad. Ultimately their heroics don't live up to what a legion could ever do, so instead their defeats are touched up to give some hope and make them lighter and softer.

The wolves are experiencing the opposite, I don't ever get the impression they are chumps who just get their teeth knocked out, but some loss is being attached to their victories. That's only a good thing in my eyes, all the legions experience some level of failure, if what attracted someone to the Space Wolves was their unrelenting victories rather then their themes then it....seems like a sort of shallow reason to like them. Personally the HH series has improved how the Space Wolves look to me, I think back to things like Russ talking to Hawkser in Prospero and trying to desperately get into contact with his brother. I dislike the wolves themselves but that made me appreciate Russ a lot more, made him feel less like an idiotic meathead and more like a straightforward and intelligent if barbaric individual. It showed Russ in the context of a bro dude who wouldn't give up on anyone, not even Angron, who was a charming guy who could rub shoulders with the likes of Fulgrim despite them seeming worlds apart, a guy who was a embodiment of the vital purity of humanities most primal nature rather then a glorified berserker.

I can't say every Primarch came out looking that good.

[AceofAllTradez]

Thramas was a nightmare for the dark angels. One of the reasons they came out on top was because of the Tuchulcha engine. A victory that may or may not have been achieved without the device.

[bluntblade]

The Scars played to their strengths and still lost half their Legion. Dark Glass wasn't a great victory, it was survival snatched from the jaws of absolute defeat.

[Sandlemad]

The Scars played to their strengths and still lost half their Legion. Dark Glass wasn't a great victory, it was survival snatched from the jaws of absolute defeat.

 

Yeah, if the WS had a victory, it was their several years of increasingly desperate harassment campaigns slowing the traitor fleets. Catallus and Dark Glass were punishing retreats that nearly became routs.

 

If a legion needs a neat, clearly defined 'moment' during the heresy to make them interesting, the IF, BA and WS undoubtedly have Terra over anything earlier in the war.

 

RE: Yarant: Apparently back in the original Codex Titanicus Yarant was simply mentioned as the site of the Eldar coming to the imperium's aid. Can't verify this, though the 2nd edition Codex Titanicus has a short speech by a techpriest to the Legio Gryphonicus about fighting the traitors on Yarant.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Sandlemad

[bluntblade]

Catallus is Dark Glass. You're thinking Kalium, I think, which was a very costly diversion.

[Sandlemad]

Whoops, I am thinking of the Kalium Gate. Very costly indeed, even if it was technically a success.

[b1soul]

Yeah...the WS scored early victories against the Traitors during their campaign (would be a great FW book section), but against 4 legions (and 4 primarchs plotting to trap them), they were hounded and wittled down...barely escaping with around half their fleet in the end.

[bluntblade]

Hopefully the Wolves make a mess of some Traitor forces when they head back out into the fray.

[Vesper]

Its just that every single other Legion has a moment/battle in the Heresy they can point to and say they won.

 

The Ultramarines have Calth (Phyrric victory but one nonetheless), Sotha (20-1 kill ratio on Night Lords) and Astagar (massive Word Bearer+ World Eater invasion w/ Titan support defeated with just 600 Astartes)

IIRC, Calth was more of a disaster to UM than WB. Sotha was a coalition against Night Lords and Astagar was more about running away than defeating anyone, or am I mistaken ?

 

Loyalist victories are all shallow and meaningless because they barely even matter. If you want to simplify the Heresy in what actually really matters it's pretty straightforward Davin - Istvaan - Molech - Terra - The Vengeful Spirit. The rest is about the traitors trying to prevent loyalists from interfering in those meaningful events with varying levels of success. The White Scars and the Blood Angels made it to Terra while the Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Dark Angels didn't. We know how the Heresy ends, the loyalists are unable to stop Horus and he moves to the last step only to be defeated by the Emperor. The loyalists can't have any meaningful victory in that perticular scenario because they won't stop Horus, they won't prevent the Siege of Terra and won't prevent the walls from collapsing under the attack of the traitors. They sure can get small victories such as Sotha, Tallarn and such (and even then, those are almost always pyrrhic), but those are the backdrop of the Heresy.

The Horus Heresy in about the traitors winning up to Horus being killed / sacrificed. In the end, everyone failed. The loyalists failed to protect the Emperor and his vision while the traitors failed to overthrow him. Civil wars often end like that, everybody lose.

 

And that's great, as a narrative.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Vesper

[DogWelder]

 

Its just that every single other Legion has a moment/battle in the Heresy they can point to and say they won.

 

The Ultramarines have Calth (Phyrric victory but one nonetheless), Sotha (20-1 kill ratio on Night Lords) and Astagar (massive Word Bearer+ World Eater invasion w/ Titan support defeated with just 600 Astartes)

IIRC, Calth was more of a disaster to UM than WB. Sotha was a coalition against Night Lords and Astagar was more about running away than defeating anyone, or am I mistaken ?

 

Loyalist victories are all shallow and meaningless because they barely even matter. If you want to simplify the Heresy in what actually really matters it's pretty straightforward Davin - Istvaan - Molech - Terra - The Vengeful Spirit. The rest is about the traitors trying to prevent loyalists from interfering in those meaningful events with varying levels of success. The White Scars and the Blood Angels made it to Terra while the Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Dark Angels didn't. We know how the Heresy ends, the loyalists are unable to stop Horus and he moves to the last step only to be defeated by the Emperor. The loyalists can't have any meaningful victory in that perticular scenario because they won't stop Horus, they won't prevent the Siege of Terra and won't prevent the walls from collapsing under the attack of the traitors. They sure can get small victories such as Sotha, Tallarn and such (and even then, those are almost always pyrrhic), but those are the backdrop of the Heresy.

The Horus Heresy in about the traitors winning up to Horus being killed / sacrificed. In the end, everyone failed. The loyalists failed to protect the Emperor and his vision while the traitors failed to overthrow him. Civil wars often end like that, everybody lose.

 

And that's great, as a narrative.

 

 

True but Calth was a victory in the end. A costly one, a phyrric one, one that had bad strategic implications in the long term but still a victory nonetheless. The Word Bearers sent to Calth were wiped out, Guilliman and about 60k out of the 180k Ultramarines survive, a significant part of the Ultramarines fleet survives (thank you Kor Phaeron). Calth is eventually retaken in the coming years and later becomes the center for shipbuilding in Ultramar in M41.

 

As for Astagar, I am referring to the Battle where Lucrecius Corvo (later founder of the Novamarines successor of the Ultras) held the planet of Astagar against a combined force of WB and WE, destroying a possessed WB Warlord Titan in the process. Its referred to in the FW books and expanded upon in the short story, "Laurel of Defiance".

Edited July 13, 2017 by Caius Tadius

[Robster The Lobster]

I have never really understood why Prospero isn´t considered a Space Wolves victory, just because Horus ordered it.

 

The Space Wolves managed, yes with the help of Sisters of Silence and Adeptus Custodes, drive the Thousand Sons away from their home planet.

 

I say that again, A legion´s home planet, which would have been pretty well defended, and that´s without the thousand sons themselves, which, included some of the most potent psykers in the entire galaxy, even if we don´t count Magnus himself. You had Ahriman, and I think nearly all of the captains can count into that category.

 

And yes the Space Wolves didn´t have a neat(good) victory, were they steamrolled an entire legion, but they and only they are the only one´s confirmed to have attacked and driven away a legion from their home world( I have not read everything in the HH series, so if I´m wrong about that point out the book, because that is something I need to read).

 

So yes, It was a victory for Horus, but it was also a victory for the wolves. Not everything is binary, yes or no, on or off, strong and weak.
You can win and somebody else can take advantage of that.

 

Horus himself is a pretty good example of that, He is one of the strongest creatures who probably have ever existed, yet he his arrogance blinded him from the dangers of the pantheon, so he was also weak.

 

Or you can simply say that none of the legions got a clean victory, since we know that chaos is the only victor after the war ends.
But it not really that simple, is it!

[Mellow]

Well Magnus ordered the planetary defences to be switched off so that helped the Space Wolves avoid some losses.

 

Also, the only other Legion homeworld that I can remember getting invaded in the HH would be Nocturne and that was defended by Dragons, yes DRAGONS and a boiling atmosphere that prevented the life eater from working.

 

So it's all a bit unique when it comes to Legion homeworlds.

[DogWelder]

Well Magnus ordered the planetary defences to be switched off so that helped the Space Wolves avoid some losses.

 

Also, the only other Legion homeworld that I can remember getting invaded in the HH would be Nocturne and that was defended by Dragons, yes DRAGONS and a boiling atmosphere that prevented the life eater from working.

 

So it's all a bit unique when it comes to Legion homeworlds.

 

Don't forget the orbital mega-laser that can destroy Battle Barges in one shot. 

[Bulwyf]

Personally I'd like see some individual Death Guard and Night Lord victories here in the HH. The Night Lords in particular seem to be the favorite bolter fodder for the loyal legions.

[DogWelder]

Personally I'd like see some individual Death Guard and Night Lord victories here in the HH. The Night Lords in particular seem to be the favorite bolter fodder for the loyal legions.

 

Wasn't the Battle of Molech partially a Death Guard victory? The Battle of Desperation was kind of a draw between the Ultramarines and the Night Lords too (Ultras couldn't win on the surface so they blew up the NL fleet and left them stranded there)

[Bulwyf]

Those aren't victories. Molech esp. was about Horus. We need some stand alone DG and NL victories tossed in here. Right now they aren't looking too good, NL especially.

[Mellow]

The NLs win when their Primarch gets killed.

 

The DG win when pap Nurgle loves them.

 

Swings and roundabouts.

[1ncarnadine]

As a Death Guard fan, I can't say I often count Molech as a "win" for us, but yeah, it probably is. Definitely more the Sons of Horus's show, but we did a cool orbital assault thing and then gave the middle finger to nature as we are wont to do, so that was good. For me, the infamous Mortarion/Deathshroud scene cast a shadow over that, and maybe so for other DG fans. Could be part of why you don't hear about Molech and the Death Guard very often. Of course, we have more context for that now but at the time it felt pretty stupefying. I'm satisfied with how the DG are represented in general, though, winning or losing. Mortarion never really gets what he wants, but the character always seems to be portrayed with a lot of threat and menace. Kind of like Darth Vader, in a way?

 

The Night Lords do kind of get shafted through the whole Heresy, though. The Traitors go through the Heresy with a lot of advantages, yet the VIIIth get shattered at Thramas, cast back at Sotha despite absolutely overwhelming numbers, and to add insult to injury, they lose their home system to Black Shields. Oh, and their First Captain spends most of the Heresy in prison. But to be fair, they're all kind of dicks.

 

 

The Raven Guard have numerous engagements where they harassed the enemy from behind (The Perfect Fortress and the like)

 

Just want to throw this out there, but if you want to count any of the back-line harassment or so-called Shadow Wars, that pretty much goes for any Legion, including the Space Wolves. Retribution's notable events section (or arguably, the entire book) exists to show that, and gives a specific example of the Wolves being awesome. It's the Fall of Baztel III, where a VIth Legion strike force wipes out an entire Millennial of the Emperor's Children.

 

And that's supposed to be like the tip of the iceberg as far as "things that happened" go. It's just what the chronicler of Retribution could piece together or thought was interesting. Because the Horus Heresy is pretty much its own setting now, it's implied that so much more happens that went unrecorded. I could see a lot of sketchy, awesome, furious Vlka Fenryka actions going unremembered in the same way... Forgotten by the Imperium and told only as enigmatic sagas.

[DogWelder]

As a Death Guard fan, I can't say I often count Molech as a "win" for us, but yeah, it probably is. Definitely more the Sons of Horus's show, but we did a cool orbital assault thing and then gave the middle finger to nature as we are wont to do, so that was good. For me, the infamous Mortarion/Deathshroud scene cast a shadow over that, and maybe so for other DG fans. Could be part of why you don't hear about Molech and the Death Guard very often. Of course, we have more context for that now but at the time it felt pretty stupefying. I'm satisfied with how the DG are represented in general, though, winning or losing. Mortarion never really gets what he wants, but the character always seems to be portrayed with a lot of threat and menace. Kind of like Darth Vader, in a way?

 

The Night Lords do kind of get shafted through the whole Heresy, though. The Traitors go through the Heresy with a lot of advantages, yet the VIIIth get shattered at Thramas, cast back at Sotha despite absolutely overwhelming numbers, and to add insult to injury, they lose their home system to Black Shields. Oh, and their First Captain spends most of the Heresy in prison. But to be fair, they're all kind of dicks.

 

 

The Raven Guard have numerous engagements where they harassed the enemy from behind (The Perfect Fortress and the like)

 

Just want to throw this out there, but if you want to count any of the back-line harassment or so-called Shadow Wars, that pretty much goes for any Legion, including the Space Wolves. Retribution's notable events section (or arguably, the entire book) exists to show that, and gives a specific example of the Wolves being awesome. It's the Fall of Baztel III, where a VIth Legion strike force wipes out an entire Millennial of the Emperor's Children.

 

And that's supposed to be like the tip of the iceberg as far as "things that happened" go. It's just what the chronicler of Retribution could piece together or thought was interesting. Because the Horus Heresy is pretty much its own setting now, it's implied that so much more happens that went unrecorded. I could see a lot of sketchy, awesome, furious Vlka Fenryka actions going unremembered in the same way... Forgotten by the Imperium and told only as enigmatic sagas.

 

They lost it to Blackshields? HH: Retribution states that the Ultramarines 10th Chapter under Arcadus was the one that conquered Nostraman sector after retaking Honourum from the Word Bearers towards the end of the Heresy. To be fair, the NL do put up a good fight against the Ultras during this campaign. In the aforementioned Battle of Desperation, the only reason the 13th Legion got the upper hand in Space was because of the surprise intervention of the Ashen Claws. 

 

I feel a good reason the NL don't do too well in open warfare against other Legions is because, with a few exceptions like Sevatar, their officers are mainly concerned with torturing and pillaging the civilian population rather than accomplishing military objectives. Take for example the Battle of Sotha.

 

The Night Lords took the Ultras by complete surprise at first and had they focused on their elimination, they would have won the planet rather quickly. Instead they focus on butchering the citizens of Sotha and allow the shattered 13th Legion elements to reform, link up with Dantioch and Polux and fortify themselves in the strongest fortress in the planet.

[1ncarnadine]

I'm honestly having to skim the Nostramo sector stuff to refresh my memory; I knew the UM were involved somewhere, but thought a majority of the engagements in that section were just the Ashen Claws wrecking on the Night Lords. 

 

OK, got it. Both the fall of the Tenebor fortress and the mysterious destruction of the Shroud of Eventide are just the Ashen Claws. The Ultramarines definitely don't take the sector; they skirmish at Desperation in an effort to harry the Night Lords (after having lost badly to them, actually losing two full companies), and then the Ashen Claws show up too and make things complicated. It's also not the same Ultramarines that take Honourum. These UM were actually driven away by the initial Traitor capture of Honourum.

 

 

 

However, despite the focus of those accounts we have seen on the actions of the Ashen Claws, it is highly unlikely that they could be the sole cause of the collapse of the Nostramo sector. Indeed, the sources noted point out the other key factors in this end result, those being an influx of xenos attacks as the Imperial presence along the tumultuous borders of the Ghoul Stars waned, and the infighting amongst the fractious and leaderless Night Lords.

 

So I guess they didn't quite lose the sector to Black Shields, but it certainly didn't help. The Imperium sweeps in much later and finds the system collapsed, and I must have misremembered the part the Ashen Claws played in that. My memory is mush! 

 

 

Good shout on the Night Lords and open warfare, though. They're actually a pretty good example of a Legion that likely did much better in the Shadow Wars, where maybe a lot of their contributions went unrecorded (or uh, purged). Will be good to see more of the Thramas Crusade fleshed out in Angelus, as well. I'm guessing they'll have some pretty great moments there, despite the end of that campaign.

Edited July 14, 2017 by LetsYouDown

[DogWelder]

I'm honestly having to skim the Nostramo sector stuff to refresh my memory; I knew the UM were involved somewhere, but thought a majority of the engagements in that section were just the Ashen Claws wrecking on the Night Lords. 

 

OK, got it. Both the fall of the Tenebor fortress and the mysterious destruction of the Shroud of Eventide are just the Ashen Claws. The Ultramarines definitely don't take the sector; they skirmish at Desperation in an effort to harry the Night Lords (after having lost badly to them, actually losing two full companies), and then the Ashen Claws show up too and make things complicated. It's also not the same Ultramarines that take Honourum. These UM were actually driven away by the initial Traitor capture of Honourum.

 

 

 

However, despite the focus of those accounts we have seen on the actions of the Ashen Claws, it is highly unlikely that they could be the sole cause of the collapse of the Nostramo sector. Indeed, the sources noted point out the other key factors in this end result, those being an influx of xenos attacks as the Imperial presence along the tumultuous borders of the Ghoul Stars waned, and the infighting amongst the fractious and leaderless Night Lords.

 

So I guess they didn't quite lose the sector to Black Shields, but it certainly didn't help. The Imperium sweeps in much later and finds the system collapsed, and I must have misremembered the part the Ashen Claws played in that. My memory is mush! 

 

 

Good shout on the Night Lords and open warfare, though. They're actually a pretty good example of a Legion that likely did much better in the Shadow Wars, where maybe a lot of their contributions went unrecorded (or uh, purged). Will be good to see more of the Thramas Crusade fleshed out in Angelus, as well. I'm guessing they'll have some pretty great moments there, despite the end of that campaign.

 

Yeah I just re-read Retribution. While these are the same Marines (the Ultras under Arcadus) who would later retake Honourum, the Battle of Desperation takes place long before that when Arcadus and co. conquered the Gasalakh sector and used it to regroup their battered forces. The Ultras do destroy the Night Lords ships and leave them there after losing the ground campaign, that much is true.  A bit of a loose end there.

 

I always felt that the Night Lords work best in conjunction with other forces who are actually organized and disciplined and will use the Night Lords to make crippling strikes ahead of their offensive. Like Huron Blackheart did when he attacked the Fortress of the Marines Errant.

 

On their own against another Legion in open warfare is suicide for them (without an exceptional leader like Curze or Sevatar). The Battle of Tsagualsa where they lost their last major stronghold is another example of this.

[Bulwyf]

I have always hated those depictions of the Night Lords. These are still combat trained and indoctrinated elite soldiers. You just don't forget how to properly fight because suddenly they have to be the boogey men in the story. I realize that's sadly too often how they are used but it doesn't make it any less nonsensical. Psychological warfare mastery does not mean  you forget how to fight set battles or space engagements or, well, pick literally anything else that doesn't involve slaughtering civilians and the Night Lords just fail on a spectacular level. I love the Night Lords and it kills me to say that but they look like 8th grade JV squad against a NFL team.