Do the Space Wolves ever get a good win in the Horus Heresy?

[AceofAllTradez]

I have always hated those depictions of the Night Lords. These are still combat trained and indoctrinated elite soldiers. You just don't forget how to properly fight because suddenly they have to be the boogey men in the story. I realize that's sadly too often how they are used but it doesn't make it any less nonsensical. Psychological warfare mastery does not mean you forget how to fight set battles or space engagements or, well, pick literally anything else that doesn't involve slaughtering civilians and the Night Lords just fail on a spectacular level. I love the Night Lords and it kills me to say that but they look like 8th grade JV squad against a NFL team.

I don't think it's that they forget how to fight but more so they refuse to work together in the absence of curze or sevatar. With no central commander it's easy for them to fall into disarray since most of the legion doesn't get along to begin with. It definitely does suck though because they really haven't had any true victories with curze and sevatar in command that I can recall besides the dropsite massacre. Again hopefully Angelus fleshes out the engagements in Thramas.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I have always hated those depictions of the Night Lords. These are still combat trained and indoctrinated elite soldiers. You just don't forget how to properly fight because suddenly they have to be the boogey men in the story. I realize that's sadly too often how they are used but it doesn't make it any less nonsensical. Psychological warfare mastery does not mean  you forget how to fight set battles or space engagements or, well, pick literally anything else that doesn't involve slaughtering civilians and the Night Lords just fail on a spectacular level. I love the Night Lords and it kills me to say that but they look like 8th grade JV squad against a NFL team.

While you're right in part, the thing is that the NL's aren't just psychological warfare specialists. They're selfish, paranoid, fractious sadists who can't really trust the man standing next to them. That's their real Achilles heel. BUt despite that, they are actually capable, from Sevatar and Curze's antics, Vandred at the helm of a ship, or even relative unknowns like Balthasar Sul, you can find examples of NLs doing well in direct confrontations (or being sneaky enough to win without charging down the enemy's guns). However, they need those strongmen to keep the troops in line, otherwise they just don't have the cohesion of other Legions, which places them at a major disadvantage in stand up fights. Are they still incredibly dangerous, highly competent and deadly warriors? Of course, but they're fighting enemies who can match them in all of those, but without the suspicion that the real enemy is in the foxhole next to them. I'd say it's more like England going up against the All Blacks at Rugby (afraid I don't know American sports well enough for an appropriate analogy). Yes England can win, and on a good day with the right people, do win. But the majority of the time New Zealand win, and they expect to. However, this doesn't mean England are bad, in fact they're often among the best around, and would comfortably beat the majority of rugby teams that exist. But they look bad because they keep going up against the absolute best, creme de la creme, top 0.1%, and so are compared to an extremely high standard.

[Robster The Lobster]

 

I have always hated those depictions of the Night Lords. These are still combat trained and indoctrinated elite soldiers. You just don't forget how to properly fight because suddenly they have to be the boogey men in the story. I realize that's sadly too often how they are used but it doesn't make it any less nonsensical. Psychological warfare mastery does not mean  you forget how to fight set battles or space engagements or, well, pick literally anything else that doesn't involve slaughtering civilians and the Night Lords just fail on a spectacular level. I love the Night Lords and it kills me to say that but they look like 8th grade JV squad against a NFL team.

While you're right in part, the thing is that the NL's aren't just psychological warfare specialists. They're selfish, paranoid, fractious sadists who can't really trust the man standing next to them. That's their real Achilles heel. BUt despite that, they are actually capable, from Sevatar and Curze's antics, Vandred at the helm of a ship, or even relative unknowns like Balthasar Sul, you can find examples of NLs doing well in direct confrontations (or being sneaky enough to win without charging down the enemy's guns). However, they need those strongmen to keep the troops in line, otherwise they just don't have the cohesion of other Legions, which places them at a major disadvantage in stand up fights. Are they still incredibly dangerous, highly competent and deadly warriors? Of course, but they're fighting enemies who can match them in all of those, but without the suspicion that the real enemy is in the foxhole next to them. I'd say it's more like England going up against the All Blacks at Rugby (afraid I don't know American sports well enough for an appropriate analogy). Yes England can win, and on a good day with the right people, do win. But the majority of the time New Zealand win, and they expect to. However, this doesn't mean England are bad, in fact they're often among the best around, and would comfortably beat the majority of rugby teams that exist. But they look bad because they keep going up against the absolute best, creme de la creme, top 0.1%, and so are compared to an extremely high standard.

 

I do think you are right about every point made about the Night Lord legion, and their paranoid faction. But I will say that most authors need to make their strong side a little, not necessarily better, but defiantly clearer. What I mean is, their tendency to make the opponent give up before the fight even begins, I know that this is harder to to when they are up against other legions, but even they should fear what happens if the Night Lords get a hold of you, just that little thing, that you are feared by those who are your equal. Not because you are stronger, but just, well, everyone´s bogey men, would give them a little more credibility and make them see more like a threat

Edited July 15, 2017 by Robster The Lobster

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

 

I have always hated those depictions of the Night Lords. These are still combat trained and indoctrinated elite soldiers. You just don't forget how to properly fight because suddenly they have to be the boogey men in the story. I realize that's sadly too often how they are used but it doesn't make it any less nonsensical. Psychological warfare mastery does not mean you forget how to fight set battles or space engagements or, well, pick literally anything else that doesn't involve slaughtering civilians and the Night Lords just fail on a spectacular level. I love the Night Lords and it kills me to say that but they look like 8th grade JV squad against a NFL team.

While you're right in part, the thing is that the NL's aren't just psychological warfare specialists. They're selfish, paranoid, fractious sadists who can't really trust the man standing next to them. That's their real Achilles heel. BUt despite that, they are actually capable, from Sevatar and Curze's antics, Vandred at the helm of a ship, or even relative unknowns like Balthasar Sul, you can find examples of NLs doing well in direct confrontations (or being sneaky enough to win without charging down the enemy's guns). However, they need those strongmen to keep the troops in line, otherwise they just don't have the cohesion of other Legions, which places them at a major disadvantage in stand up fights. Are they still incredibly dangerous, highly competent and deadly warriors? Of course, but they're fighting enemies who can match them in all of those, but without the suspicion that the real enemy is in the foxhole next to them. I'd say it's more like England going up against the All Blacks at Rugby (afraid I don't know American sports well enough for an appropriate analogy). Yes England can win, and on a good day with the right people, do win. But the majority of the time New Zealand win, and they expect to. However, this doesn't mean England are bad, in fact they're often among the best around, and would comfortably beat the majority of rugby teams that exist. But they look bad because they keep going up against the absolute best, creme de la creme, top 0.1%, and so are compared to an extremely high standard.

I do think you are right about every point made about the Night Lord legion, and their paranoid faction. But I will say that most authors need to make their strong side a little, not necessarily better, but defiantly clearer. What I mean is, their tendency to make the opponent give up before the fight even begins, I know that this is harder to to when they are up against other legions, but even they should fear what happens if the Night Lords get a hold of you, just that little thing, that you are feared by those who are your equal. Not because you are stronger, but just, well, everyone´s bogey men, would give them a little more credibility and make them see more like a threat

Granted it's the only NL stuff I've read, but I thought the NL were portrayed fairly well in Pharos. For every instance of flaying someone or (literally) nailing them to a wall, there were also moments of jamming radios, having decoy attacks, and otherwise being psychological as much as their were being terror-inducing.

 

In contrast, when faced with a siege situation where flanks couldn't be turned or infiltration routes were ineffective they seemed to not know what to do beyond "throw men at it." And even then they eventually broke through.

 

A relatively balanced portrayal, IMO.

[Loesh]

I mean in general, just expanding my thoughts on this a bit, I think people fixate too much on who wins or who loses.

For example I, as an Emperor's Children fan adore Primogenitor, but Primogenitor is not about how the Emperor's Children win, it's not about it at all. In fact it's one of the most damning and stark portrayals of any of the Legions, it shows how far they fell and how they hit every stair on the way down, it shows how the entire Legion fell completely apart, how it's shattered into a thousand desperate and fragmented pieces that can never be pulled back together again, it shows the sheer futility and struggle, how they have completely succumbed to madness to the point where they can barely muster themselves to fight anymore.

But that makes those little moments, makes Oleander Kohs selflessness, it makes the Radiant Kings sorrow over what is lost and attempts to escape for something greater, makes Biles own thoughts towards what he could of been and might of become, it makes their stubborn refusal stop chasing perfection in spite of everything shine a thousand times brighter.

That's what makes a good Legion backstory to me, not who won, who won doesn't matter, it never mattered.

[HeritorA]

Can we get back to the topic at hand? 'do-the-space-wolves-ever-get-a-good-win-in-the-horus-heresy'?

I do understand the love/dislike for EC or NL, but maybe create separate threads for them?

 

bluntblade

'Hopefully the Wolves make a mess of some Traitor forces when they head back out into the fray.' - based on what? They went against Horus, who was a half-god, numbers in billions and who is protected by the plot armor to get to the 'Siege of Terra'

[Mellow]

I simply don't think that it's in "the plot" to allow the wolves any large victories. It's not about being cheated the chance to shine. It's about keeping things in line with the story arc.

 

That doesn't mean I don't enjoy seeing what they get up to during the HH and hopefully in the scouring period afterwards.

[HeritorA]

I simply don't think that it's in "the plot" to allow the wolves any large victories. It's not about being cheated the chance to shine. It's about keeping things in line with the story arc.

 

That doesn't mean I don't enjoy seeing what they get up to during the HH and hopefully in the scouring period afterwards.

True. We all know how the HH will end (well, most of us) - and we know that SW will recover and will purge the stars during the Scouring period. But let's see - maybe BL will surprise us with some big and unexpected victory for them

[Loesh]

Can we get back to the topic at hand? 'do-the-space-wolves-ever-get-a-good-win-in-the-horus-heresy'?

I do understand the love/dislike for EC or NL, but maybe create separate threads for them?

 

Considering my example was directly relevant to topic at hand, no, just because it's a thread is about space wolves doesn't mean I need to pull exclusively from space wolves.

[HeritorA]

 

Can we get back to the topic at hand? 'do-the-space-wolves-ever-get-a-good-win-in-the-horus-heresy'?

I do understand the love/dislike for EC or NL, but maybe create separate threads for them?

 

Considering my example was directly relevant to topic at hand, no, just because it's a thread is about space wolves doesn't mean I need to pull exclusively from space wolves.

 

Ok, ok. I arrived to page 5 of the thread and up to the point on page 6 I saw a discussion of anything, except the 'do-the-space-wolves-ever-get-a-good-win-in-the-horus-heresy'

If that was for the thread - then I stand corrected

[RedwaKe]

The thing is that prospero went from the Wolves fighting the Thousand Sons on their homeworld and winning while taking horrendous casualties to the SW getting their arse kicked by a smaller, unprepared legion without a fleet and getting saved by the custodes and sisters.. and Russ winning his bout with Magnus because of a lucky strike to the eye. It feels like every book covering prospero since the old fluff is only cheapening the Wolves only "victory" during the heresy to a point where it doesnt even seem to be a victory anymore.. at least thats how I see it.

Edited July 21, 2017 by RedwaKe

[bluntblade]

I have to say I didn't like how the duel was portrayed in that regard. ATS could also have done with showing some regular TSons being slain by the Wolves, rather than just the Captains blowing up everything until they overload.

[HeritorA]

The thing is that prospero went from the Wolves fighting the Thousand Sons on their homeworld and winning while taking horrendous casualties to the SW getting their arse kicked by a smaller, unprepared legion without a fleet and getting saved by the custodes and sisters.. and Russ winning his bout with Magnus because of a lucky strike to the eye. It feels like every book covering prospero since the old fluff is only cheapening the Wolves only "victory" during the heresy to a point where it doesnt even seem to be a victory anymore.. at least thats how I see it.

Well I think Forge World HH book 7 Inferno - pretty much explained everything and is much better than Prospero battle in TS and Prospero burns :)

[Mellow]

The Prospero battle should have been MORE of a "ROFLSTOMP" in that the "executioners" should have been shown as using their anti-psychic-ice-aura things to massive effect by simply being too much for the TS forces to handle.

 

Like is previously stated. Having the TS legion being betrayed by their tutuleries was too convenient.

 

Having the Wolves win so thoroughly would have give them the "big win" that everyone wished they had in the HH. ... which in turn would have forced all the other legion lovers to say "where's my special win for my favourite coloured team"

[HeritorA]

'Like is previously stated. Having the TS legion being betrayed by their tutuleries was too convenient.
Having the Wolves win so thoroughly would have give them the "big win" that everyone wished they had in the HH. ... which in turn would have forced all the other legion lovers to say "where's my special win for my favourite coloured team"'

 

Well - I totally and 100% agree with you on that

[TheRealMcCagh]

What about the Space Wolves qualifies them for a 'good win' when no other loyalists get one? They survived Yarant, which is as much of a win as the UM's get with Calth, BA get with Signus Prime, and IF get with Phall. Should BL start creating battles just for the Space Wolves to win and say they're better than everyone else? They weren't completely obliterated like the RG, Salamanders and IH, isn't that a good win?

[DogWelder]

What about the Space Wolves qualifies them for a 'good win' when no other loyalists get one? They survived Yarant, which is as much of a win as the UM's get with Calth, BA get with Signus Prime, and IF get with Phall. Should BL start creating battles just for the Space Wolves to win and say they're better than everyone else? They weren't completely obliterated like the RG, Salamanders and IH, isn't that a good win?

 

You can hardly compare Yarant to Calth.

 

Yarant was a definitive defeat for the SW with their legion decimated, their primarch crippled and most of their fleet destroyed for no gain whatsoever.

 

Calth on the other hand was a phyrric victory for the Ultramarines. They suffered greatly but all the Word Bearers and traitor Titans/Mortal troops on Calth were all killed. The planet was reclaimed by the Ultramarines shortly afterwards with only mop up operations taking place for most of the Heresy. Not to mention that more than half of their Legion was still alive by the end of it. Their Primarch was in relatively good shape and the UM still had a substantial fleet to be an effective Legion force (though that was mostly Kor Phaeron's fault). 

[TheRealMcCagh]

Pyrric victory, by its very definition, is tantamount to defeat. Calth crippled the UM's and effectively took them out of the Heresy. The WB's that were sent to Calth were sent to die anyways, so it cost the WB's nothing and it achieved the single most important event for the traitors during the Heresy, the Ruinstorm. The Ruinstorm alone makes Calth worth it for the traitors ten times over.

 

The Ultramarines gained nothing from Calth other than not dying. The casualties they inflicted on the Word Bearers are meaningless because they were sent to die anyways. It would be like saying Pearl Harbor was an American victory in WWII, with the difference being Calth actually took the UM's out of the war and Pearl Harbor brought America into the war.

Edited July 21, 2017 by TheRealMcCagh

[DogWelder]

Pyrric victory, by its very definition, is tantamount to defeat. Calth crippled the UM's and effectively took them out of the Heresy. The WB's that were sent to Calth were sent to die anyways, so it cost the WB's nothing and it achieved the single most important event for the traitors during the Heresy, the Ruinstorm. The Ruinstorm alone makes Calth worth it for the traitors ten times over.

 

The Ultramarines gained nothing from Calth other than not dying. The casualties they inflicted on the Word Bearers are meaningless because they were sent to die anyways. It would be like saying Pearl Harbor was an American victory in WWII, with the difference being Calth actually took the UM's out of the war and Pearl Harbor brought America into the war.

 

True but from the moment it started and the Shadow Crusade commencing, the Ruinstorm was raised and there was nothing the Ultramarines could have done to get through it. So the only victories they could win were local ones.

 

Kor Phaeron clearly intended to wipe out the Ultramarines at Calth and render the Legion completely incapable of carrying out large scale operations in the future (such as the IH, RG and Salamanders), kill/corrupt Guilliman and capture a large part of the Ultramarine fleet. The fact that over half the 13th Legion survived, all 130 WB Titans sent were abandoned on Calth, half the WB fleet was destroyed (including Kor Phaeron's flagship), the elite Gal Vorbak unit were all killed etc. makes it a clear tactical victory for the Ultras. 

 

 

I'm not saying that it was strategically a win for the traitors (ofc the Ruinstorm made it worth it) but it was still a tactical defeat. Yarant on the the other hand was both a clear strategic and tactical victory for the traitors.

[Marshal Loss]

Not all of the Legio Infernus' Titans are left on Calth. The Gal Vorbak sent to Calth were not the only Gal Vorbak the Word Bearers had, and at this point were being mass produced with little care or regard for quality. And as was said, the Word Bearers sent to Calth were expendable. They'd spent half a century ensuring they were ready for war.

 

The Ultramarines lose half their Legion, almost all of their ancient battleships, the entire Legio Praesagius, the entirety of that giant Knight House (cannot remember the name), Calth's status as the future of Ultramar, and the entire character of the Legion is warped and changed by the betrayal.

 

That being said, Calth was indisputably a victory for the Ultramarines, although this was more through the lunacy of the Word Bearers than through anything the Ultramarines did. But it is their survival, and Guilliman's ability to (attempt) to defend his realm that is the reward that matters, not a bunch of dead Word Bearers (who were outnumbered 2/3-1 by XIII dead regardless).

 

Anyway, this is off topic given that the thread is about the Wolves.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[DogWelder]

Not all of the Legio Infernus' Titans are left on Calth. The Gal Vorbak sent to Calth were not the only Gal Vorbak the Word Bearers had, and at this point were being mass produced with little care or regard for quality. And as was said, the Word Bearers sent to Calth were expendable. They'd spent half a century ensuring they were ready for war.

 

The Ultramarines lose half their Legion, almost all of their ancient battleships, the entire Legio Praesagius, the entirety of that giant Knight House (cannot remember the name), Calth's status as the future of Ultramar, and the entire character of the Legion is warped and changed by the betrayal.

 

That being said, Calth was indisputably a victory for the Ultramarines, although this was more through the lunacy of the Word Bearers than through anything the Ultramarines did. But it is their survival, and Guilliman's ability to (attempt) to defend his realm that is the reward that matters, not a bunch of dead Word Bearers (who were outnumbered 2/3-1 by XIII dead regardless).

 

Anyway, this is off topic given that the thread is about the Wolves.

 

Didn't Titan losses favor the loyalists there though? Not all of the 118 Titans that Legio Praesagius had on Calth were lost (several are active in the story "Calth That Was" which is set after the Battle of Calth but all 130 Titans that the Fire Masters had on Calth were not evacuated as the WB fleet left immediately after the defence grid was turned on them (from the book: "The Unburdened").

 

Anyways, yeah back to the wolves.

[Marshal Loss]

...and a retreat from Calth's surface with less than half of its forces intact

 

Incorrect, as per HH5: Tempest. Praesagius lose around 90% of their forces while Infernus lose around 51-60%

Edited July 21, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[DogWelder]

 

...and a retreat from Calth's surface with less than half of its forces intact

 

Incorrect, as per HH5: Tempest. Praesagius lose around 90% of their forces while Infernus lose around 51-60%

 

 

Ah, thanks for the source. "The Unburdened" and "Calth That Was" books state that the WB just left without bothering to extract anything on the surface. Its confusing when BL novels and FW books start contradicting one another.

[Huggtand]

What about the Space Wolves qualifies them for a 'good win' when no other loyalists get one? They survived Yarant, which is as much of a win as the UM's get with Calth, BA get with Signus Prime, and IF get with Phall. Should BL start creating battles just for the Space Wolves to win and say they're better than everyone else? They weren't completely obliterated like the RG, Salamanders and IH, isn't that a good win?

 

As I said before, so long that the Wolves get good stories I dont mind them losing all the time. Just as you point out, every loyalist legion get their asses handed to them since it is the HH 

 

What sets the Wolves apart from the examples you mention above is that the others manage to survive on their own, not being rescued by another party. If for example you are rooting for UM at Calth you get some satifaction that they managed to survive the impossible odds. A "we did it" feeling.

 

What I think bugs many who like the Space wolves is that the Rout for some reason are not alowed to manage anything by themselves, not that they aren´t winning. In constrast of the above examples they are always saved by another, like DA or RG. If Russ after his soul-searching when things looked the worst at Alaxxes managed through some sacrefices to think and fight his way out on his own I dont think so many people would feel "cheated".

 

Just my two credits 

Edited July 23, 2017 by Huggtand

[HeritorA]

Pyrric victory, by its very definition, is tantamount to defeat. Calth crippled the UM's and effectively took them out of the Heresy. The WB's that were sent to Calth were sent to die anyways, so it cost the WB's nothing and it achieved the single most important event for the traitors during the Heresy, the Ruinstorm. The Ruinstorm alone makes Calth worth it for the traitors ten times over.

 

The Ultramarines gained nothing from Calth other than not dying. The casualties they inflicted on the Word Bearers are meaningless because they were sent to die anyways. It would be like saying Pearl Harbor was an American victory in WWII, with the difference being Calth actually took the UM's out of the war and Pearl Harbor brought America into the war.

 

Not totally so - Calth did indeed crippled the Smurfs. But they still left as one of the most numbered Legions in the Galaxy.

Was the Calth worth it for WB - yes. For Horus -yes. Was it a pyrrhic victory for the Smurfs - at the moment of Calth - yes. A year later - not so much.

'The casualties they inflicted on the Word Bearers are meaningless because they were sent to die anyways.' - the smurfs does not know that.

 

 

 

...and a retreat from Calth's surface with less than half of its forces intact

 

Incorrect, as per HH5: Tempest. Praesagius lose around 90% of their forces while Infernus lose around 51-60%

 

 

Ah, thanks for the source. "The Unburdened" and "Calth That Was" books state that the WB just left without bothering to extract anything on the surface. Its confusing when BL novels and FW books start contradicting one another.

 

They did not. WB does not extract anything from the surface. But traitor Mechanicus did - nobody leaves 'Titans' behind.

And Praesagius lost more cause they had almost full Legion where right before the warp breach and solar storm. Infernus on the other hand had 2/3 of the Legion on the surface - part of which was evacuated by the traitor Mechanicus.

 

And again we are going to other Legions instead of a relevant one.