Nharvey89 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I have just built mine today with storm bolters, I am happy with it because it's the cheaper points option and I don't think I will be using power level much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Don't forget the bikes have a twin boltgun which is basically a storm bolter already. And you can shoot noth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Caldersson Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 But storm bolters are rapid fire 2, so at 12" it's 4 shots per model. Up close the storm bolter performs much better. Still not sure which is better, but against hordes it's probably the storm bolter. Rapid fire was already calculated and it is just 2 wounds against a SM. As for horde armies, I will attempt to do storm bolter vs combi-plasma against some infamous Ork Boyz. 5x Storm Bolters vs Ork Boyz 20x bolter shots rapid fire 12x shots hit (BS 3) 6x wound (S4 vs T4=4+ to wound) 6+ Saving throw=17% saved 5x damage dealt TOTAL: 5x damage dealt on rapid fire vs Ork Boyz 5x Combi-Plasma vs Ork Boyz 10x bolter shots rapid fire 6x shots hit (BS 3) 3x wound (S4 vs T4=4+ to wound) 6+ Saving throw=17% saved 2.5x damage dealt 10x plasma shots rapid fire 6x shots hit (BS 3) 4x shots wound (S7 vs T4=3+ to wound) No save 4x wounds TOTAL: 6.5x damage dealt on rapid fire vs Ork Boyz Against hordes the fight is much close with plasma just barely edging out. The downfall is the cost. A Storm Bolter (and nothing else) Wolf Guard is 18 points vs a Combi-Plasma (and nothing else) wolf guard is 31 points. So a group of 5 WG Storm Bolters is 90 points vs 155 points for WG combi-plasma. WG Storm Bolter vs SM=45 points per 1 damage (rapid fire) 90 pts/2 damage vs Boyz=18 points per 1 damage (rapid fire) 90 pts/5 damage WG Combi-Plasma vs SM=35 points per 1 damage (rapid fire) 155/4.4 damage vs Boyz=23 points per 1 damage (rapid fire) 155/6.5 damage So against SM the plasma wins 35 points-per-damage(PPD) vs storm bolters 45 PPD. Against Boyz the plasma loses 23 PPD vs 18 PPD. To me though I would pay the extra little bit per PPD to have something that can knock down hardier target AND vehicles in a emergency. I didn't calculate overcharge vs Boyz because the risk just seems too high to deal a couple damage against a horde of Boyz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Caldersson Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) Don't forget the bikes have a twin boltgun which is basically a storm bolter already. And you can shoot noth Like you said bikes are basically double storm bolters on rapid fire. vs SM=47.5 PPD (190/4) vs Boyz=19 PPD (190/10) If you go combi-plasma WG bikers this is the calculations. vs SM=35 PPD (190/5.4 3.4x plasma wounds, 2x storm bolter/bike bolter wounds) vs Boyz=21 PPD (190/9 4x plasma wounds, 5x storm bolter/bike bolter wounds) So it is a close call with these bikes give HUGE amount of moment and +1 toughness and an extra wound attack. This is probably the best value so far. Edited June 27, 2017 by Caldersson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gherrick Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 And overwatch with SBs will be decent overall, with 4 shots per model. Combi's will have 2+1 special shot per, which admittedly will make a better impact with every hit, just has fewer shots overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Caldersson Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 And overwatch with SBs will be decent overall, with 4 shots per model. Combi's will have 2+1 special shot per, which admittedly will make a better impact with every hit, just has fewer shots overall. Combi plasma will have 4 shots too, bother bolter and plasma guns have rapid fire 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Hellion Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 The But storm bolters are rapid fire 2, so at 12" it's 4 shots per model. Up close the storm bolter performs much better. Still not sure which is better, but against hordes it's probably the storm bolter. Rapid fire was already calculated and it is just 2 wounds against a SM. As for horde armies, I will attempt to do storm bolter vs combi-plasma against some infamous Ork Boyz. 5x Storm Bolters vs Ork Boyz 20x bolter shots rapid fire 12x shots hit (BS 3) 6x wound (S4 vs T4=4+ to wound) 6+ Saving throw=17% saved 5x damage dealt TOTAL: 5x damage dealt on rapid fire vs Ork Boyz 5x Combi-Plasma vs Ork Boyz 10x bolter shots rapid fire 6x shots hit (BS 3) 3x wound (S4 vs T4=4+ to wound) 6+ Saving throw=17% saved 2.5x damage dealt 10x plasma shots rapid fire 6x shots hit (BS 3) 4x shots wound (S7 vs T4=3+ to wound) No save 4x wounds TOTAL: 6.5x damage dealt on rapid fire vs Ork Boyz Against hordes the fight is much close with plasma just barely edging out. The downfall is the cost. A Storm Bolter (and nothing else) Wolf Guard is 18 points vs a Combi-Plasma (and nothing else) wolf guard is 31 points. So a group of 5 WG Storm Bolters is 90 points vs 155 points for WG combi-plasma. WG Storm Bolter vs SM=45 points per 1 damage (rapid fire) 90 pts/2 damage vs Boyz=18 points per 1 damage (rapid fire) 90 pts/5 damage WG Combi-Plasma vs SM=35 points per 1 damage (rapid fire) 155/4.4 damage vs Boyz=23 points per 1 damage (rapid fire) 155/6.5 damage So against SM the plasma wins 35 points-per-damage(PPD) vs storm bolters 45 PPD. Against Boyz the plasma loses 23 PPD vs 18 PPD. To me though I would pay the extra little bit per PPD to have something that can knock down hardier target AND vehicles in a emergency. I didn't calculate overcharge vs Boyz because the risk just seems too high to deal a couple damage against a horde of Boyz. The math that Calderra presents does show a potential of options. I may suggest a mixed squad of WG Stormbolters with WG combi plasma probably a 2/1 or 3/1 ratio depending on squad size. It will take a bit of experimentation to get the right synced squad with stormbolter/combi plasma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nharvey89 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Now we have an idea about the combi option what about all the melee weapons we can have now? For the points I'm really liking the frost sword. Getting that extra str will help against all the marines out there and with the - to ap its pretty nice. I would say thunder hammers but I think I have enough of them on my two and wulfen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrin Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 The math is a bit off, no? Firing both combi parts applies a -1 penalty to shooting. Not a giant difference, but a -1 has a big impact on rerolls and plasma overheating. Also don't forget the points per wound could be worse, but stormbolters allow you to bring more bodies the table for the same prize. Less ranged alpha, but better melee due to numbers. On that note, stormbolter + frostsword is still cheaper and makes for a cool looking assault unit ;) Feels less bad to have them tied up than combi guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Caldersson Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 The math is a bit off, no? Firing both combi parts applies a -1 penalty to shooting. Not a giant difference, but a -1 has a big impact on rerolls and plasma overheating. Also don't forget the points per wound could be worse, but stormbolters allow you to bring more bodies the table for the same prize. Less ranged alpha, but better melee due to numbers. On that note, stormbolter + frostsword is still cheaper and makes for a cool looking assault unit ;) Feels less bad to have them tied up than combi guys. You are correct. I will update the math when I can. The points were points per wound so why yes you do get more bodies you are doing less damage. I am attempting to do the math for 7 storm bolters and 3 combi meltas. This would allow mass fire AND anti armor/vehicle fire when needed. Right now bit busy so will update later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Hellion Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 The math is a bit off, no? Firing both combi parts applies a -1 penalty to shooting. Not a giant difference, but a -1 has a big impact on rerolls and plasma overheating. Also don't forget the points per wound could be worse, but stormbolters allow you to bring more bodies the table for the same prize. Less ranged alpha, but better melee due to numbers. On that note, stormbolter + frostsword is still cheaper and makes for a cool looking assault unit Feels less bad to have them tied up than combi guys. You are correct. I will update the math when I can. The points were points per wound so why yes you do get more bodies you are doing less damage. I am attempting to do the math for 7 storm bolters and 3 combi meltas. This would allow mass fire AND anti armor/vehicle fire when needed. Right now bit busy so will update later. Could you also do some math on the stormbolter/combi plasma as well? Bit curious since I own way more plasma then I should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grouj Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 Did a test game yesterday with chainsword/stormboltet/storm shield jump guard. They came down, they melted an annihilation barge, lost 2 wolves, then mulched imotek and would have done more if the game had gone on. Bikers didn't fair so well, the combi-meltas didn't get through wealth in time before they for into combat and that 3++ stopped me from destroying them outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Now we have an idea about the combi option what about all the melee weapons we can have now? For the points I'm really liking the frost sword. Getting that extra str will help against all the marines out there and with the - to ap its pretty nice. I would say thunder hammers but I think I have enough of them on my two and wulfen.Yeah, I am liking the look of Frost swords too. S5 is a bit of a sweet spot IMHO as it gives you +1 to wound against both T4 and T5 targets compared to a regular power sword (T4 and T5 cover a surprising amount of the units out there ). It also means that against T8 monstrosities you are still wounding a 5+ rather than a 6. Obviously if you want to go monster hnuting then THs are your goto but for an all-round unit, I think Frost Swords are great value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gherrick Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 I prefer wolf claws over frost swords. You give up -1AP, but get to reroll all failed wounds. Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Caldersson Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) *snip* *snip* Could you also do some math on the stormbolter/combi plasma as well? Bit curious since I own way more plasma then I should. 5x Storm Bolters vs Ork Boyz (Rapid Fire) 20x bolter shots rapid fire 13.4x shots hit (BS 3, 67%) 6.7x wound (S4 vs T4=4+ to wound, 50%) 6+ Saving throw=17% saved Equation (((20x*.67)*.50)*.83)= TOTAL: ~5.6x damage dealt 5x Storm Bolters vs Space Marines (Rapid Fire) 20x bolter shots rapid fire 13.4x shots hit (BS 3, 67%) 6.7x wound (S4 vs T4=4+ to wound, 50%) 3+ Saving throw=67% saved Equation (((20x*.67)*.50)*.33)= TOTAL: ~2.2x damage dealt 5x Combi-Plasma vs Ork Boyz (Rapid Fire) 10x bolter shots rapid fire 5x shots hit (BS 4, 50%) 2.5x wound (S4 vs T4=4+ to wound, 50%) 6+ Saving throw=17% saved Equation (((10x*.50)*.50)*.83)= ~2.1x damage dealt 10x plasma shots rapid fire 5x shots hit (BS 4, 50%) 4x shots wound (S7 vs T4=3+ to wound, 67%) No save Equation (((10x*.50)*.67))= ~3.4x wounds TOTAL: ~5.5x damage dealt on rapid fire vs Ork Boyz 5x Combi-Plasma vs Space Marine (Rapid Fire) 10x bolter shots rapid fire 5x shots hit (BS 4, 50%) 2.5x wound (S4 vs T4=4+ to wound, 50%) 3+ Saving throw=67% saved Equation (((10x*.50)*.50)*.33)= ~.8x damage dealt 10x plasma shots rapid fire 5x shots hit (BS 4, 50%) 4x shots wound (S7 vs T4=3+ to wound, 67%) 6+ Saving throw=17% saved Equation (((10x*.50)*.67)*.83)= ~2.7x wounds TOTAL: 3.5x damage dealt on rapid fire vs Space Marines 3x Storm Bolter/2x Combi-plasma vs Ork Boyz (Rapid Fire) 12x Storm Bolter shots, rapid fire 8x shots hit (BS 3, 67%) 4x wound (S4 vs T4=4+ to wound, 50%) 6+ Saving throw=17% saved Equation (((6*.67)*.50)*.83)= ~3.3x damage dealt 4x Storm Bolter shots, rapid fire 2x shots hit (BS 4, 50%) 1x wound (S4 vs T4=4+ to wound, 50%) 6+ Saving throw=17% saved Equation (((2*.50)*.50)*.83)= ~.8x damage dealt 4x Plasma gun shots 2x shots hit (BS 4, 50%) 1.3x shots wound (S7 vs T4=3+ to wound, 67%) No save Equation ((4x*.50)*.67)= ~1.3x wound TOTAL: ~5.4 x damage dealt on rapid fire vs Ork Boyz 3x Storm Bolter/2x Combi-plasma vs Space Marines (Rapid Fire) 12x Storm Bolter shots, rapid fire 8x shots hit (BS 3, 67%) 4x wound (S4 vs T4=4+ to wound, 50%) 3+ Saving throw=67% saved Equation (((6*.67)*.50)*.33)= ~1.3x damage dealt 4x Storm Bolter shots, rapid fire 2x shots hit (BS 4, 50%) 1x wound (S4 vs T4=4+ to wound, 50%) 3+ Saving throw=67% saved Equation (((4*.50)*.50)*.33)= ~.3x damage dealt 4x Plasma gun shots 2x shots hit (BS 4, 50%) 1.3x shots wound (S7 vs T4=3+ to wound, 67%) 6+ Saving throw=17% saved Equation (((4x*.50)*.67)*.83)= ~1.1x wound TOTAL: ~2.7 x damage dealt on rapid fire vs Space Marines Edited June 28, 2017 by Caldersson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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