8th Edition Honour Guard?

[Grim Dog Studios]

Hi all, bit of a backstory. I'm converting my 30K Ultramarine army over to 8th edition as I have no Horus Heresy opponents in my area to play 7th with. Whilst not playing often, I'm used to having the beatstick unit of Invictus Suzerain to kill things in close combat however I feel like my options for such a thing are limited when it comes to the 8th Edition marines list.

Therefore, I was just wondering what everybody's thoughts are on the Honour Guard. I believe my group of players are going to be using the power level system instead of points for now, so I can equip all of the Honour Guard with relic blades at no extra cost if I wished too. I was thinking about running 6-8 Honour Guard with an Apothecary and Captain all transported inside a Land Raider. Would this be a viable set up, or am I better off spending my power level/points elsewhere?

 

James

Edited June 22, 2017 by Centurion Jay

[JustinianTheGreat]

I like it! Honor guard are relatively cheap for their 2+ save & Land Raiders are scary this edition. Added bonus you can shoot bolters and charge now!
Note that it appears Honor Guard only come in units of 2 models now - weird. Means you'll need a lot of elite choices if you're doing matched play.

A chaplain might serve you better than a captain with the full re-rolls. Chaplain Cassius has some cool tricks this edition too.

With so many points in the land raider you have to make sure they don't sit out too many turns. Against a long range shooty army, i'd say don't be afraid to move & advance with the land raider turn 1 if it ensures you'll get a turn 2 charge.

[jgascoine011]

Just remember that honour guard are now limited to 2 guys in a unit.

You have to then add in the banner and champion as extra elites and technically count as separate units

 

Kind of odd I know, and doesnt make too much difference, but could screw over your elites slots

[Brother Chaplain Ryld]

Yeah, it's kinda like they have left a sentence out that says they may add more models to the squad 

[Captain Idaho]

It's upsetting for folk like me who championed Honour Guard as my go to beat stick unit.

 

Still, 2 Honour Guard is 4 wounds, who can soak hits for characters on a 2+. Sniper fire is no longer an issue, especially with an Apothecary around to raise a model from the dead.

 

The old Honour Guard consisted of a Chapter Champion and Chapter Ancient. Whilst I don't really rate the Ancient as a combat character, he's okay. The Champion on the other hand is a cheaper Captain that is superior killing characters.

 

Give him a Relic blade and Honour Blade (his dirk) and go forth and stab fools.

 

With an Apothecary, Honour Guard and Chapter Champion, you actually have a reasonable counter attack for killing elites.

 

To be fair, my Apothecary would likely go in the line of battle following the Cataphractii, but the Champion and Honour Guard can stick in a Rhino to counter attack when needed.

[Race Bannon]

"Nice blade there.  Does it have a name?"

 

"Fool Stabber."

 

:tu:

[old git]

Same here, I used to use a 5 man Honour Guard squad that could kill pretty much anything 3+. Now they're really just 4 ablative wounds.

[Grim Dog Studios]

I like the idea of the Champion and Honour Guard in a rhino acting as a counterattack unit. It is slightly annoying that they are only in squads of two, hopefully when the actual codex is released they make it how it originally was where you can add more honour guard to the squad. As is, it isn't too bad as we do get a lot more elite slots available with the detachments setup we now have.

[Acebaur]

Yeah it saddens me that HG went from being a beatstick combat unit to a glorified meatshield. They lost a massive amount of attacks and only gained a wound in return.

[Kua]

They are not bad, I guess, but they’d need a special rule to make it advantageous to combine them with the champion, ancient and apo. As they are now, there is not as much reason to.

 

Their special rule is not considered with many points in their cost, one can simply see them as a relic blade unit and ignore the bodyguard rule.

But if looking for actual bodyguards, they are cheaper per wound than company veterans.

[Captain Idaho]

I think when Eldar Snipers hit the tables we'll see a need for Honour Guard more too.

 

I don't think I'd bother with the Chapter Ancient beyond an awesome model. His ability is hard to get the most out of.

 

Of course, he might be useful alongside a Terminator assault force and the like as he is still a solid fighter and getting an extra attack with 50% of your dead would be best utilised with powerful attacks.

[Kua]

On the RG subforum people were discussing using him with plasma devastators and an apothecary in combination. The theory doesn’t fully convince me, but for some it seems to work and maybe they are right.

[Captain Idaho]

Hmm. I don't know if that works particularly well. Command Point Rerolls not withstanding, you require a 4+ per dead model to get a reroll then a 4+ to revive a single model. Likely a lot of points for little benefit. 2 Apothecaries would be cheaper

 

That's somewhat off topic particularly because Honour Guard are separate entities to the Chapter Ancient now.

 

Moving to Honour Guard specifically; they are still reasonable in close combat with 4 attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s (power axes). They won't break a line like they used to but can consistently take wounds off of units and characters.

 

On that basis, I'm considering they are best used to either support a main assault (defending a character from being overwhelmed) where their additional attacks help win combats, or by (my preferred method) joining a character to attack a particularly powerful enemy attack element.

 

Basically anti-elites hunting.

[Race Bannon]

Personally, I see Honor Guard "hunting" with a character as well.

[Indefragable]

 

Still, 2 Honour Guard is 4 wounds, who can soak hits for characters on a 2+. Sniper fire is no longer an issue, especially with an Apothecary around to raise a model from the dead.

 

 

At last, the Master of Recruits led the new Initiates to the chambers of Brother Maynard. "...and here, Initiates, is Brother Maynard. The most respected and highly decorated hero of the entire chapter." The scouts oohhh and ahhh, googly-eyed at the prospect of meeting yet another demi-god.

 

"Did he slay an Ork Warboss in singular combat?" Scout Timmy asked.

 

"No..." the Master of Recruits replied.

 

"...did he pick off a Necron overlord from miles away?" asked Scout Jimmy.

 

"....no...." MoR replied softly.

 

"He downed hundreds of squadrons of Dark Eldar Razorwings with only a single engine, then!" Scout Johnny excitedly added.

 

"Well, no...." the MoR said again clearly growing uncomfortable.

 

"I know!" shouted Scout Donny. "He placed a single shot with his bolt pistol into the command throne of an Ork Stompa, causing the mechanical beast to kill hundreds of its filthy greenskin kind!" The other Initiates all nodded with grins on their face, knowing that had to be the case.

 

The Master of Recruits rubbed his temples with his free hand, looking rather exasperated.  "No....that wasn't it either."

 

"Well then what could the greatest member of the Honor Guard possibly have done?!??!?" The initiates were nearly frothing with anticipation by this point.

 

The MoR sighed and finally told them the truth. "Brother Maynard jumped in front of a bullet for the Chapter Master forty-seven times. He was slain 23 of those times, and revived by the Apothecarion, only to step in harm's way for the commander again and again. In fact, he forgotten how to hold a sword and lacks the use of opposable thumbs so he can't even hold, let alone aim, a bolt pistol ever again. But by the Emprah does the commander make sure he is present on every battlefield!"

[Acebaur]

The big take away from new HG is if the character is hit by something that does multiple damage, like a Thunder hammer or some filthy xenos equivalent and you get to make saves against the character first who likely has an invul and then once he suffers a wound, you can tank that wound on a 2+ onto a HG. The important thing to note here is that the HG only takes a single mortal wound, vs the multiple damage the character would have taken. 

 

I think they are going to be best when paired with a character who buffs their combat ability in some way like a chaplain or captain, or named guy. 

[Captain Idaho]

I believe it's each time they lose a wound, which mean if you suffer 3 damage from say a power fist, that's 3 wounds off the Captain's profile and thus 3 Mortal Wounds to suffer (if you roll the 2+).

[Acebaur]

That's not how the wording is though, It says: "on a 2+ a model from this unit can intercept that hit.."  That would indicate that the entire hit is intercepted and a single mortal wound is taken. 

 

We have to remember that there is a big difference now between wounding and suffering damage. Before they were one in the same because virtually nothing caused more than 1 wound, and there was no damage stat. 

[Race Bannon]

That's incredible for characters then.  I've been looking for an excuse to make some.  Thank you for the discussion!

[Captain Idaho]

It looks like it'll need an FAQ as it contradicts itself. "Each time they lose a wound" is when you roll the 2+, then the model takes the hit.

 

It basically means you're rolling multiple times for the same wounding shot.

 

I hope it is your interpretation because it seems a little harsh from multiwound weapons.

[Ebon Hand]

It says roll a 2+ every time the character loses a wound. That means he was already hit, wounded and failed his save. That's when the 2+ is rolled, and that's why they made it cause a mortal wound.

 

If the character has the warlord trait that lets him ignore the wound suffered, he would not get to roll it as he didn't suffer the wound, it hit his Honor Guard instead, however if the Honor Guard had a rule like that, he would get to use it after he suffers the mortal wound.

[Kua]

The question is:

Do you roll once per multi-wound hit and redirect only one wound?

Do you roll once per multi-wound hit and redirect the entire shot transforming it into one wound (for the HG)?

Do you roll as often as the char takes wounds (by this single hit)?

 

I think the latter one is the most correct and safe interpretation.

[Lysere]

Honor guard still feel like a good way to bully other units that aren't also dangerous in melee. The guns combined with artificer armor makes them quite useful while still having solid combat potential.

 

I feel the best way to take them is just to use a vanguard detachment for them, the hq you want them to hang with, and whatever vehicle you need.

[Captain Idaho]

I've had an idea...

 

Chapter Champion - Relic blade and Champion's blade

Honour Guard

5/6Vanguard Veterans - only a power axe/Relic Blade on the Sergeant

 

In a Rhino

 

The infantry are less than 250pts! It provides a capable but cost effective combat force that utilises enough power weapons to make a dent whilst having sufficient attacks for cheap against Hordes. The Champion can target characters if need be and is good at it. Lastly the Rhino is an extra vehicle for the army and is fast.

 

I am pretty happy with this configuration.