DKoK in 8th!

[Harrowmaster]

The Marshall is only LD 8 now, any case where that would matter?

[The Prince]

Actually got in a nice little narrative game with the DKK today. Vs some basic marines at power level 22/3

I ran:

Marshal w/ laspistol+Psword

Infantry Squad w/ vox+grenade launcher

Infantry Squad w/ vox+grenade launcher

Engineer Squad

Heavy Weapons Squad w/ mortars

 

Honestly not factoring shooting casualties for battleshock is pretty damn ace, and now bolters no longer negate basic armour our troops are pretty hardy. However whilst the 3+s to hit in combat are great, the lack of +1A for charging means I found it best to just hang back and wait for them to reach me.

 

Desperately missing FRFSRF just for the barrage of shots at close range, however the ability to advance and then shoot as normal is great. Also kinda miss Dig In, however we're definitely more manoeuvrable.

 

Still dont see why engineers are elite. the need to get into >12" for prime effectiveness is a bugger - however transports may solve that, but I think grenadiers do that job better.

 

Mortars are the shizz though. Averaging 8hits and 3 wounds a turn vs Marines between the 3 of them was neat.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

@Gunzhard, like @micahwc said, practically all of the entries in this book pertain to Forge World products, regardless of whether they are currently in production or out of production. In particular, the Leman Russ Conqueror used to be made by FW, but is currently OOP. The Stormhammer has been about for a while, but couldn't be fielded in 7th because it was Horus Heresy only - but it's super cool now that you can actually field it!

 

As for the Ryza variant of Russ it is the one that is fielded by the DKOK, again, currently available from FW. One interesting thing to notice though is that it has a separate entry in the book to the Stygies Vanquisher Russ. The difference being in coaxial weapons; the Stygies Vanquisher can only have a coaxial storm bolter, whereas the Ryza Vanquisher is the only one with access to a coaxial heavy stubber. Something that struck me as quite odd when I seen it.

 

Thank you. I am still a little confused about the Ryza and Conqueror Battlecannon though. In the new IA book the Ryza doesn't seem to exist (I can't find it), but under the actual "Death Korps Leman Russ Mars-Alpha Battle Tanks" it has the co-axial special rule only for the Conqueror Battlecannon or Vanquisher... is the Ryza the same as the Conqueror Battlecannon? ...or is the Ryza just a regular battlecannon? ...something else no longer listed?

 

Thanks again.

[micdicdoc]

Hey, no worries Edited June 25, 2017 by micdicdoc

[DietOfLiquor]

Welp, I've made my first 1500 point brigade list that I'm going to start aiming at purchasing over the coming months. But I will say that I am surprised at some of the typos as well.

 

Earthshaker Carriage Batteries not being listed was definitely an odd choice. But from my understanding, you can still include them in your list. Lord of War's are already on their own separate detachments, so I can see how they don't quite fulfill the need for the lists to fit into gorgons. Either way, I'm excited to start collecting them and throw them on the table in the near future!

[Withershadow]

Anyone think heavy mortars are worth it compared to an earthshaker for 19 more points?  Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 D3 vs. Heavy D6 S9 AP-2 D3; both ignore LOS, and earthshaker gets to roll two dice and pick highest.

 

Thoughts?

[Otto von Bludd]

Anyone think heavy mortars are worth it compared to an earthshaker for 19 more points?  Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 D3 vs. Heavy D6 S9 AP-2 D3; both ignore LOS, and earthshaker gets to roll two dice and pick highest.

 

Thoughts?

 

If your main target is T3 units the Heavy Mortar will do roughly the same job as the Basilisk for slightly fewer points.  For any T above 3 I would say the Basilisk the way to go.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Otto von Bludd

[Withershadow]

Yeah, I think the quad mortars handle the T3 stuff better just through sheer volume of attacks, while the Earthshaker can also go after vehicles and elite units.

 

I'm a bit disappointed in the laser destroyer (well, except for the fact that FW typos have made their crew Strength and Toughness 4, lol).  Unlike the Mortars and Artillery which can take several groups of crew that can keep them operating (if a gun's crew is wiped out, if you have another crew within 3", it stays in play), the rapiers are bought on an individual basis, and if you kill the two guardsmen, it goes away.  Shame because I have six of the suckers, lol.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Are heavy weapons teams 2 infantry models and a gun? The new index just says "each model is armed with lasguns,..." plural, do the guys even matter or is it just like a single model with 2 wounds? Then how many lasguns can it shoot? It does not specify any details.

[Withershadow]

It's effectively a single model that can fire both its lasgun and the heavy weapon (at different targets no less).  In certain cases, it seems FW has goofed and left the base weapons on models that take upgrades (like DKOK engineers taking a mole mortar or heavy flamer).  So you could fire the heavy flamer and both shotguns, haha.

[major higgins]

Yeah, I think the quad mortars handle the T3 stuff better just through sheer volume of attacks, while the Earthshaker can also go after vehicles and elite units.

 

I'm a bit disappointed in the laser destroyer (well, except for the fact that FW typos have made their crew Strength and Toughness 4, lol).  Unlike the Mortars and Artillery which can take several groups of crew that can keep them operating (if a gun's crew is wiped out, if you have another crew within 3", it stays in play), the rapiers are bought on an individual basis, and if you kill the two guardsmen, it goes away.  Shame because I have six of the suckers, lol.

Now that crewmen are safe behind their gun and only a real cunning flank manouvre could get our big guns, I cannot see a reason to don't take platform insteed of carriage. Same stat and cheaper in point...

 

A question, which benefits from a mars pattern in place of a standard one russ? I mean, coaxial weapon has benefits or is only a 3 shot added weapon?

[micdicdoc]

You also get a co-axial weapon with the Stygies Vanquisher and Leman Russ Conqueror, so it's not something unique to the Mars-Alpha pattern. If you shoot at the same target with the main weapon as does the co-axial weapon then you get to reroll all hits with the main weapon. So no more needing to hit with the co-axial weapon.

 

Mars-Alpha variants come with the special rule "Mars-Alpha Hull" which means you get plus one to your armour save against weapons with a strength of no more than four.

 

Otherwise it's exactly the same as the vanilla Russ.

[Withershadow]

 

Now that crewmen are safe behind their gun and only a real cunning flank manouvre could get our big guns, I cannot see a reason to don't take platform insteed of carriage. Same stat and cheaper in point...

 

A question, which benefits from a mars pattern in place of a standard one russ? I mean, coaxial weapon has benefits or is only a 3 shot added weapon?

 

Well, the cost difference is not enormous.  The carriage is 5 points cheaper but then pays 16 points for crew.  The crew still has lasguns they can fire, and the biggest difference is the carriage can MOVE!

[major higgins]

 

 

Now that crewmen are safe behind their gun and only a real cunning flank manouvre could get our big guns, I cannot see a reason to don't take platform insteed of carriage. Same stat and cheaper in point...

 

A question, which benefits from a mars pattern in place of a standard one russ? I mean, coaxial weapon has benefits or is only a 3 shot added weapon?

 

Well, the cost difference is not enormous.  The carriage is 5 points cheaper but then pays 16 points for crew.  The crew still has lasguns they can fire, and the biggest difference is the carriage can MOVE!

 

 

 

 

Now that crewmen are safe behind their gun and only a real cunning flank manouvre could get our big guns, I cannot see a reason to don't take platform insteed of carriage. Same stat and cheaper in point...

 

A question, which benefits from a mars pattern in place of a standard one russ? I mean, coaxial weapon has benefits or is only a 3 shot added weapon?

 

Well, the cost difference is not enormous.  The carriage is 5 points cheaper but then pays 16 points for crew.  The crew still has lasguns they can fire, and the biggest difference is the carriage can MOVE!

 

All right, I see... It's a matter of play style. I never had to move my guns in 3 years of game with Krieg, so probably I will choose the Platform, especially because I use alternative models, which looks more like platform than carriage :D 

 

Well Mars pattern annihilation is not bad in the end is better protected than a standard russ...

[Just Another Guard Player]

I'm afraid I'm not quite so optimistic about getting real enjoyment out of my Death Korps these days. I feel the orders that have taken FRFSRF away from us and kitted us out for melee might be suitable for the old Assault Brigade style of play but, for me, I was always trying to properly recreate that solid WW1 trench line shooting army. Where the horde of orks or whatever would come at me under all my large bast templates and then get whittled down by massed las fire and heavy bolters and finally flamers.

 

If you really want to or have to bayonet charge then all well and good but all I seem to hear now is how great a melee army I now have. Which is really not what I wanted or invested in. For me it just feels....meh....I want my artillery to be able to smash hordes again, not pick off vehicles. And I REALLY want my FRFSRF back. It just doesn't feel quite right anymore.

[TheTrans]

I honestly think with Krieg, while yes the ability to FRFSRF would of been great, they have given as a Melee option as guard. If you want to sit back and shoot, just take normal guard that are krieg flavoured.

Anyway just put this up on the Krieg FB page, if you guys want to help out that would be great also:
 

How about we collate all the issues together and send them into FW...we should probably break them into 4 categories though:
 

1. Major issues. I.E. No heavy flamers on Grens, non double heavy stubbers on HWT etc..stuff that there is models backing us up for.

2. Neatness/theme issues. Letting arty etc have the DKOK keyword etc.. things that need adding to the DKOK list style affair

3. Perfect world fixes. This is actual specific having stuff in our list..so a new entry for the hades, with engineers, new entry for rapier battery with engineers etc

4. Issues with the AM index in general, typos etc

 

So just prefix your issue with one of the numbers and we can collate it into a large document... it may not get us anywhere, but hey, it won't hurt... and it gives us a reason to pore over our indexes

Edited June 26, 2017 by TheTrans

[Mitchverr]

1

Twin linked heavy stubber missing

Grenadier heavy stubber and heavy flamer missing

Platoon and regimental standard missing from death rider command squad (used to get these back in the old book iirc)

Can take salamander scout, but not salamander command? (1 or 2)

Infantry squads cannot take heavy weapons

 

2

Big gun artillery as dkk

Can take salamander scout, but not salamander command? (1 or 2)

 

3

Give an option to take a hades drill with the engineers, or as a transport for dkk in general

Give Venner the ability to get on a horse :D

Possibly extend grenadier assault to include engineers squads if no hades?

[major higgins]

A couple of question...

 

On Facebook DKK fanpage someone suggest that Without mercy is usable only in melee, but The order not say that. I think that we may turn our lasgun/hotshot into pistols even to shoot only, although this order is intended to be used in melee to allow us to shoot twice against an engaged unit.

 

Second, they said that turning lasguns into pistols don't change their range, but if this is true (I don't think so) this means that we can get practically an assault weapon and this is where this order could became huge (if they're right), because you can shoot twice at 24/18 depending on the weapons.

 

What do you think about?

[Mitchverr]

Yeah somebody brought that up in another thread, perhaps just asking for clarification from FW on the subject would work.

 

Afterall, it does make it in effect max range 2 shot, but they could have said "in combat" which they didnt, perhaps they wanted it to be a case of effectivelly giving an order like "light em up" where the squad just switches to full auto and sweeps the field even if at point blank range.

 

They couldnt use "assault" for the rule because then you cant fire point blank in combat, but pistol works. I would say talk to your opponent about how they think it should work with you before you take a fight on till FW clarifies.

[Mitchverr]

Question as I am a noob,

 

So priests from the regular guard, can you take them in a brigade of death korps? If so, does their War Hymn effect kriegers? I am just thinking if putting 1 of them into a command squad with a regimental standard would in effect give everyone +2 attacks within 6 inches.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I'm still not totally confident on the keyword stuff, but the detachments say 'same faction' and that could be simply 'imperial' so you can definitely take the priest.

 

His own rules specify they only work on 'astra militarum' keyword, which DKOK also have.

[micahwc]

A heavy mortar fires D6 shots at strength 6, AP -1 with a 48" range. It costs 60 points, plus 3 crewmen at 4 points each. So you pay 72 points for this.

 

An Earthshaker battery fires D6 shots at strength 9, AP -2, with a 240" range. It costs 80 points, and doesn't require crew.

 

So for 8 more points (or two less guardsmen) you get +3 strength, 1 better AP, and a lot longer range; you also don't have to worry about your crew getting killed. I don't think the heavy mortar is worth it at all just to save 8 points.

 

The heavy quad launcher is 85 points with crew, 4D6 (average 14) shots per turn at strength 5.

 

Basically, if you are worried about the targets armor the Earthshaker is better than the heavy mortar and only a few points more, if you are fighting a horde army the Quad Launcher will beat both of those. I can't see much of any reason to take a heavy mortar instead of an Earthshaker battery.

 

Edit: If they are not available to DKoK, you could take Earthshaker batteries in a spearhead detachment lead by a Lord Commisar. The Lord Commisar's abilities buff all friendly Astra Militarum models. DKoK have the Astra Militarum keyword, and so the Lord Commisar's buff will work on them. Just dress him  up like a DKoK commissar and use him as normal.

 

Also, the nomenclature in the book annoys me. A battery is plural. An Earthshaker battery should be multiple guns. /Rant.

Edited June 27, 2017 by micahwc

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

All this is very confusing for me. So the heavy Mortar and Quad launcher are 'carriages' thus requiring crew to use but can move?

 

The Earthshaker 'battery' is a stable platform not requiring crew to fire? This model is oop yes? But the 'carriage' version of the same weapon is still sold, which requires a crew?

 

Why are any of these better than the Basilisk with earthshaker? It's D6 but get's to roll 2 dice and pick highest and it's on a tank...

[micahwc]

An Earthshaker battery takes no crew, costs 80 points, can't move, and picks the best of 2D6 for number of hits.

 

A basilisk costs 108 points with heavy bolter, is a tank, can move, and picks the best of 2D6 for number of hits.

 

An Earthshaker Carriage costs 75 points, requires 3 crew for 12 more points (87 total) , can't move without assistance from a specialized vehicle, and picks the best of 2D6 for number of hits.

 

Strictly speaking, an Earthshaker Carriage is worse IMO than an Earthshaker battery. However, Earthshaker batteries are no longer for sale from Forgeworld and Earthshaker carriages are. The Earthshaker cannon is a heavy weapon, so you get -1 to hit if you move your Basilisk before firing. If you're not planning on moving them anyway, you can save 28 points by bringing an Earthshaker battery instead. So if you are bringing a full battery of 3 you save 84 points with Earthshaker Batteries over Basilisks.

 

Edit:

 

Adding to the confusion, the unit known as "earthshaker battery" is one earthshaker cannon; Battery is plural, a group of cannons. Quad Launchers and Heavy Mortars are also carriages, thus they can move with assistance from special vehicles in the Forgeworld Index, but not on their own. Not really worth doing in my opinion.

Edited June 27, 2017 by micahwc

[Withershadow]

1

Platoon and regimental standard missing from death rider command squad (used to get these back in the old book iirc)

Infantry squads cannot take heavy weapons

3

Give Venner the ability to get on a horse

Possibly extend grenadier assault to include engineers squads if no hades?

1. Those are not bugs, that is how it has always been for the DKoK.

 

3. Lets not clutter this with wishlisting, it defeats the purpose and is a good way to get the whole thing ignored.