DKoK in 8th!

[major higgins]

Hi brothers,

 

After a week of intensive gaming (9 games in 7 days) I dare to take some consideration about krieg on the field and share with you:

 

First of all something has changed for our troops, but not everything must be re-invented, and this is a good thing. The list is not the best one, and we have to cope with this "not so good" mix of both Assaulting and Siege list. But most of the missing stuff is still available from regular AM list, and the good thing is that almost all of this stuff don't feel the absence of Krieg Bonuses for morale or "to hit" stat. We have to cope with mistake and bad copy past error, but Tourney set aside, common sense should prevail and Rapier crew cannot have Marine stat, Veteran from Hades cannot have regular guardsmen stat and so on.

 

Speaking about the army on the field I have to say that Siege list (my list) is not gone, but it's slightly changed. No more FRFSRF and no more Template dicatate a different style of game, and depending on missions/enemy  different tactics. Where before you will set a gun line and pounding enemy to dust, now something must be rethinked. I feel that again another gun line the old attrition tactics still works, but when you face an incoming, fast enemy your old gun could not be enough, now krieg got a better counterstrike potential.

 

Dark eldar on their now cheap and good fast vehicles, teleporting terminators army, Tyranids are now much more difficult to hold at bay simply with Template. 

 

Against this kind of threat Krieg army works more like WWI style army (I love this) than before. They will shatter your front line and then they will die by the counterstrike. We have now plenty of efficent counterstrike units which are suited to hold and even beat this new threat, Deathriders, Engineers and Plasma, lot of Plasma.

 

When you need to move, when you need to secure a Flank or to grab far objective siege list struggle as before. Even playing a Siege list we have, now, access to mobile unit such as Chimera, Gorgon, Crassus, or the small Centaur carriers... All but Centaur really expensive in point cost, and not so good in their role. I prefer to skip on them in a Siege list and point on moving infantry and small cheap squad which may strike where I want. And here, I have to come at my important conclusion which may not like to purist, AM got some exceptionally useful unit which help immensely Krieg in this new enviroment of game which is 8th ed: Scions and Scout Sentinels. 

 

Scions may pop up/dropped where you need them the most. Two small squad armed with a couple of Melta/plasma supported by a Tempestor prime with rod cost around 180 points and get one of the most important order for guard "Take Aim" which allow to overcharge plasma without any fear. At short range this means 8 shots str8 2 wound each 16 potential wounds on almost everything. I tried many list, but the one with scions revealed itself as the best one. Now I have put them in and for fluffy I immagine them as tunneler which will emerge close to the enemy rather then dropping... more WWI

 

Scouts Sentinels are unvaluable in two roles: keep deepstriking enemy far from your main line (we gave almost always first turn, so it's important) and later in the game the can easily grab objective in Maelstrom game, or engage enemy armor silencing their guns for a turn or two. I tried them with Autocannon, than with Heavy Flamer, but now that Power Lifter Sentinel is out, now that this model retain scout move I will go for them. Cheap as a multilaser armed ones and more efficent in melee. Although sentinels usually die quickly its weapons (HF set aside) are ininfluent on the game so a good big saw/fork/pincer will works for me.

 

Coming to the unit I see that Basilisks still shine on the ground, good in both role of anti-infantry and anti-tank. Heavy mortars now are surclassed by quad lunchers which are amazing in killing infantry (42 shoot average) and even medium/light tank can take some wounds.

 

Deathriders are simply amazing in countestrike role. On attack they get an improved resilience and with a Move Move Move order thay must sustain only a turn of incoming fire before get the enemy line.

 

Engineers are fantastic now: 2 plasma and carcass shotgun can easily kill every monster on their way. Sadly we lost Take aim for a useless duty unto death, but that is... hard is the life in the rank of krieg.

 

Infantry is always the same. I prefer to keep it plain (50pts) and fill 4/5 squad. Striking first is better than nothing at least.

 

Leman Russ: I hate new tanks... Vanquisher commander, annihilator or punisher are too expensive and the old standard battle cannon moved from anti infantry to anti tank role. I still prefere the old version, but more AT is alway welcomed. I use a couple of stadanrd Russ plus a Lascannon, but not being impressed till now.

 

Grenadiers: Not so impressing in large squad, but shine in the scout role on abord a carrier. I was doubtfull in the beginning, but get a squad which can start the game 9" towards enemy, keep teleporting enemy far away and then can move quickly where you need extra firepower, or need to grab objective, or simpply disembark and rapidfire something is a bargain. 100 points for a squad with a plasma/Melta (you can take up to two, but I prefer save points), is a real bread and butter.

 

Hades Drill: Its Veterans are not Engineers, and I hope that we can get them back when FW realise it. 10 veterans lack of armor, but still can punch hard if properly kitted, here I say Meltagun! Anyway if the veterans are not the best unit to pop out in face of the enemy Hades is. I Love it! It's a beast against armor, it could hunt down a characters who lead in the rear, It can hunt devastors/havocs ecc. Ok you have to pass a 9" charge, but hey... the old hades was really really worst than this. In 3 years I managed only 1, and I say 1, charge with subterranean assault. The only real thing where the old Hades shine over the new one is that it can beeing moved every turn, but it was a trick which work the first time you play it against an opponent, thye second time he turn its gun and say hallo to the expensive Engineers/hades...

 

All in all krieg is still a formidable list, which play different from standard guards. We have to cope with poor orders, but have access to unit which standard guard hasn't to compensate. Probably a regular AM list is more efficent on the field, but this is the life in the death korps. Any susses is more satisfing, every defeat is deserved by a lack of faith in the Emperor...

 

I wait for your ideas and comments

[Mitchverr]

I wasnt sure on the hades right now, I actually got alot of good use out of the subterranian stuff but that came out of having a fair amount of cover on the tables i played (using it to burrow under cover to attack was great). Will have to think on that :D

 

Glad to see grenadiers in centaurs seem to do well least for yourself, still considering on if i am going to buy some centaurs or wait to see if they will come back with the grenadier version on the site. Just curious if you had only 1 or 2 units deploying solo or if you got a small force of say 3+ deploying together for mutual fire support?

[major higgins]

I wasnt sure on the hades right now, I actually got alot of good use out of the subterranian stuff but that came out of having a fair amount of cover on the tables i played (using it to burrow under cover to attack was great). Will have to think on that

 

Glad to see grenadiers in centaurs seem to do well least for yourself, still considering on if i am going to buy some centaurs or wait to see if they will come back with the grenadier version on the site. Just curious if you had only 1 or 2 units deploying solo or if you got a small force of say 3+ deploying together for mutual fire support?

I use two units of Grenadiers, I tend to separate them when I need to deny terrain for deep striking unit. If not necessary I deploy them according to mission/enemy. Sometimes to get mutual support, sometimes to force enemy to split fire threathing different objectives...

[Mitchverr]

So they are pretty flexible in use then, no "this way and this way only" thats nice :D

[major higgins]

Yes. Don't expect that much from them, because are 5 men with a meltagun riding a tuna can... They're a utility units which works in many role. Sometimes dying is a role though LOL

[Mitchverr]

To be honest I was fully expecting them to be a "life fast die faster" type unit, but least drawing fire away from your other stuff while it is also doing its own thing.

 

1 of those "if your enemy is dealing with this, they aint doing what they want to do" type units.

[Uprising]

Just wondering, how many death riders are people putting in a 2000 pt list?  I was thinking going troop heavy with counter charge death riders for an army. 

[Withershadow]

I currently have an Outrider Detachment for my death riders.

 

HQ - Commander

Elites - Commissar

Elites - 4x Death Rider Command Squad

FA - 5x Death Riders

FA - 5x Death Riders

FA - 5x Death Riders

 

The whole thing can outflank.

 

As far as Engineers go, I left them with melta guns just to keep all the weapons Assault in case I ever need to run them.  More importantly, I am in love with the mole mortar.  Movement is important, and being able to shut it down is big.  Engineers being able to deploy via Hades drills is something I dream about.

 

At the end of the day, outside of Engineers and Death Riders (who certainly pay for their rules), I don't see Krieg rules as particularly beneficial.  The morale boost is nice, but at one point per model it's easy to replicate with Commissars, and you lose access to special weapons (no SWS or 4-gun command squads) and some of the better orders. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Withershadow

[major higgins]

Mole lounchers in this ed is huge!! But no idea to how I may convert it for my converted krieg army... Edited July 7, 2017 by major higgins

[The Pounder]

Yeah, like Withershadow said, don't leave home without a Command Squadron and a couple of regular Squadrons.

The Command Squadron grants up to 5 squadrons the Flanking Manouvre special rule, allowing you to come on from any table edge!

Also there's something satisfying about all those beautiful cavalry models galloping across the board!

On Engineers, I'm lucky in that my group allow me to simply pay the 65pts for the Hades to deliver my Engineers, I run them with

2 Meltaguns and a Molelauncher.

[Mitchverr]

Yeah, my death rider force is the same, 20 guy split into 3 squads of 5, a command squad and a commander.

 

I was tempted to go bigger pre-8th edition because they were suprisingly very good (and in tournie nobody expects them and think they are just rough riders). In 8th, they have lost alot of that hidden potential now because everyone knows they are good, so if you get too many, it can backfire I think.

[Are Verlo]

This might be breaking the fluff but I want to bring attention to a few observations regarding the DKoKlists

 

Bring commissar yarrick. He boosts all guard units regardless of regiment or other keyword. It´s a 6" radius and will keep some plasma gun units happy.

Give the same unit(s) the "bring if down" order and you reroll 1´s to hit and wound. In addition the same units will enjoy the morale boost and execution as per a regular commissar.

 

The quartermaster and co. is a total mess, BUT you can buy an understrenght unit. I "lost" my medical servitors and will field just the quartermaster revenant. When or if FW erratas the whole squad to get keyword "character" I might happen to stumble upon the servitors again ;-P

 

When using massed infantry we can bring a ministorum priest and stack the +1 attack with DKoK regimental banners. 

 

Rules question: If Yarrick or Marshal Venner is in range of Jacobus and gets +1 Ld would this increased Ld be confered to other units in range?

 

Venner has LD 9 and a 12" aura. If Venner is in range of Jacobus and gets +1 LD would all DKoK units within 12" use Venners increased Ld or do the units in range get his LD 9 and only gets to enjoy jacobus´ banner if they are both within range of Venner and Jacobus?

[Withershadow]

That's kind of dirty, but I guess if you purchased the event exclusive one, you don't have any servitors to begin with. :)

[Otto von Bludd]

This might be breaking the fluff but I want to bring attention to a few observations regarding the DKoKlists

 

Bring commissar yarrick. He boosts all guard units regardless of regiment or other keyword. It´s a 6" radius and will keep some plasma gun units happy.

Give the same unit(s) the "bring if down" order and you reroll 1´s to hit and wound. In addition the same units will enjoy the morale boost and execution as per a regular commissar.

 

I think you've hit on something big here but not for use with plasma guns.  Yarrick is the only way to get those incredible Carcass Shot Engineers to reroll 1s.  Wounding anything short of vehicles on 2s this edition is simply incredible.  Give them a couple melta guns and these guys should smash any target.  I can't stress enough how good those shotguns are!

 

I'm suddenly transported to a vision of 30 Engineers and Yarrick pouring out of a Stormlord and trying to image what could survive the hail of shells and ensuing charge. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Otto von Bludd

[major higgins]

Hi comrades,

 

I have a question which arused in my mind after few games. I Play two russes in my 2500pts lists. But they really underperformed respect the Russ of Old. For the sake of point I used a couple of Conqueror, but I sense that a couple of Annihilators would be really better.

 

My concern is this: I can get back points from the grenadiers units into centaur (about 212 points) and with this points I can upgrade both Conquerors to Annihilators, or better, a Command Annihilator tank and a regualr one ans save points for three Cyclops, or other Heavy Weapon (But Cyclops are HUGE in this edition). What d you think about this change?

 

In my list I still got three scout sentinels to keep deepstriking units at bay, but with this change I will loose two high mobile, but fragile units... Probably I can save one of the grenadiers unit if I give up the Cyclops...

 

Need suggestions, or battle experience, or sensation from you please:

 

Combinations at the moments are:

 

2 Conqueror & 2 Grenadiers unit of 5 men with a Melta riding a couple of Centaur

 

OR

 

1 Command Annihilator + lascannon + 1 Annihilator + Lascannon & 3 Cyclops

 

OR

 

1 Command Annihilator + lascannon + 1 Annihilator + Lascannon & 1 unit of Grenadiers as above

 

To you...

 

[Jam Master Flex]

I'm still putting together my DKOK detachment at the moment -

 

Just wondered if any of you can recommend a matt varnish to protect them for when they're being used in games as I want them to stay in good condition!

 

Is the vallejo stuff any good?

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Do you mean Vallejo Air Matte medium through an airbrush? ...if yes, that's my goto! Mostly because it just makes the model look great but it does add some protection. That said, I generally have a "gloss phase" during my painting where I add washes and decals, so that is likely doing most of the protecting, but the Matte must help also.

[Jam Master Flex]

Do you mean Vallejo Air Matte medium through an airbrush? ...if yes, that's my goto! Mostly because it just makes the model look great but it does add some protection. That said, I generally have a "gloss phase" during my painting where I add washes and decals, so that is likely doing most of the protecting, but the Matte must help also.

Either that or the matt varnish in the dropper bottle.

 

My local hobby store sells both but I've had a bit of a nightmare today varnish spraying one of my DKOK commanders :(

 

So going to have to repaint him and carefully varnish the others, thanks!

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

What happened?  A lot of seemingly varnish nightmares can be fixed...

 

EDIT: In summary... if your issue is "Frosting" due to varnish... this was likely caused by too much humidity or spraying from too far away, or not shaking the can enough etc, but the solution is easy - just another Gloss coat, let that dry, then a Matte coat.  If you're in a humid climate, then try a brush-on. The Vallejo Model Color Varnishes are 'water-based' and so you can thin them nicely and put them on in 2 thin coats.

 

Vallejo makes several varnish types... Model Colour, Game Colour, Model AIR, Surface etc etc, all in dropper bottles... The Model Colour stuff is great for brushing on and the AIR stuff works great in the airbrush.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[Jam Master Flex]

What happened? A lot of seemingly varnish nightmares can be fixed...

 

EDIT: In summary... if your issue is "Frosting" due to varnish... this was likely caused by too much humidity or spraying from too far away, or not shaking the can enough etc, but the solution is easy - just another Gloss coat, let that dry, then a Matte coat. If you're in a humid climate, then try a brush-on. The Vallejo Model Color Varnishes are 'water-based' and so you can thin them nicely and put them on in 2 thin coats.

 

Vallejo makes several varnish types... Model Colour, Game Colour, Model AIR, Surface etc etc, all in dropper bottles... The Model Colour stuff is great for brushing on and the AIR stuff works great in the airbrush.

This is what I've tried and seems to have cleared it up a little. I'm going to try the Vallejo tomorrow and hopefully that'll sort it once and for all - thanks for the tip!

 

Back on topic, I'm thinking of going for lots of artillery for my Krieg army when its finished.

 

I've recently built a magnetised baneblade which I'm now going to paint up in my Krieg colours.

 

I'm thinking of shoving it full of Engineers and I do have a Yarrick too so they could come in handy against my friends new Primaris Marines...or die trying who cares!

[Otto von Bludd]

For what it is worth, I never varnish my minis and I've never had an issue with paint coming off anything other than metal models. 

[Mitchverr]

So with the return of our heavy stubbers to grenadiers, twin heavy stubbers to our heavy weapons and the sudden allowance of malcadors in our forces.

 

 

Thoughts on the 3 changes? Heavy weapons seems to be a great unit for use, 18 heavy stubber shots. Grenadiers with a pair of heavy stubbers in the squads could be interesting to me.

 

The only thing I aint sure on are the malcadors, I got the flame version and am very happy I can take it in my DKoK army again (i got it when it was lord of war, now its heavy support i believe). Just unsure on the other versions, I am tempted to maybe get another malcador but am unsure which version I would get.

 

 

Also cant decide on if the destroyer tank hunters are a good pick for us, or if I should get russes.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Mitchverr

[major higgins]

Well, a dedicated AT russ such a vanquisher or an annihilator cost you more points than the tank hunter... for the same results...

[Withershadow]

I see no value in the heavy flamer teams for grenadiers, two hotshot lasguns seem more useful (and 15 points cheaper). Same thing for the Engineers (strange they can take heavy flamers in the first place since FW does not make models for that), two carcass shotguns seem better.

 

Regarding heavy stubber guys in Grenadiers, I don't know, but I'm not 100% on the use of Grenadiers either... without FRFSRF or mass special weapons, Grenadiers don't seem great to me and I intend to use mine as Stormtroopers. As such, the stubbed guys I have will be hot-shot volley guns.

 

Now stubber heavy weapon teams, that's something to seriously consider. 8 points and a lasgun in exchange for 6 shots, even hitting on 5+, seems like a pretty good purchase. Full heavy weapon squads with stubber also seem a great source of raw Dakka. They have been cool models with bad rules for years and years, it's refreshing to have them as an option. I'll probably invest in some more mortars before any stubbers though.

[Truesight]

I see no value in the heavy flamer teams for grenadiers, two hotshot lasguns seem more useful (and 15 points cheaper). Same thing for the Engineers (strange they can take heavy flamers in the first place since FW does not make models for that), two carcass shotguns seem better.

 

Read the Combat Engineers entry and FAQ for grenadiers again.  They don't replace their hotshots/krieg shotguns.  So you don't have to decide whether it's better, just buy and fire both. Heavy flamers are so good I'd take them everywhere I could.