Why Recent Noblebright Lore Additions are Good for 40k

[Adeptus]

And this is why 40k was better as a setting than as a story. Because a story needs winners and losers and for things to happen, but as gamers we don't want our factions that we know and love to have anything permanently bad bad to happen to them. That's why the five minutes to midnight setting was so good because GW could say that all these terrible things were ABOUT to happen, but it left it all up to the reader.

 

I'm reminded of Battlestar Galactica when the newer Viper fighters had to be taken offline due to software vulnerabilities forcing the colonists to rely on the older Vipers. Giving people a powerful new tool to fight the enemies lessens the menace and impact of those enemies, but then having that weapon fail increases the risk and the stakes.

 

The cicatrix maledictum is interesting, but having Guillaman running around roflstomping chaos left, right and centre makes it much less interesting to me.

[civsmitty]

I think, Adeptus, that's why I'm so bummed about the new fluff. Sure sure, warp rift. Lost contact, imperiled humanity. 

 

And the new fluff made it clear that all the important stuff (hi, Baal!) was all rescued by a gigantic Blueberry with a second mouth cut into his throat. There's no drama in this new story. Nobody thinks to write how the bad guys can win, and win BIG, for a long time and the loyalist players will develop defiance at their apparently fate. 

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

I don't know, I sort of think the Reivers and their seeming background suggest this all might be going somewhere pretty messed up, and not at all noble bright.  

[DogWelder]

And this is why 40k was better as a setting than as a story. Because a story needs winners and losers and for things to happen, but as gamers we don't want our factions that we know and love to have anything permanently bad bad to happen to them. That's why the five minutes to midnight setting was so good because GW could say that all these terrible things were ABOUT to happen, but it left it all up to the reader.

 

I'm reminded of Battlestar Galactica when the newer Viper fighters had to be taken offline due to software vulnerabilities forcing the colonists to rely on the older Vipers. Giving people a powerful new tool to fight the enemies lessens the menace and impact of those enemies, but then having that weapon fail increases the risk and the stakes.

 

The cicatrix maledictum is interesting, but having Guillaman running around roflstomping chaos left, right and centre makes it much less interesting to me.

 

To be fair, Guilliman didn't just arrive in Ultramar and smash the Death Guard to pieces with his new Primaris marines. He actually used strategy, maneuvers on a grand sector-wide scale to force the Death Guard to retreat. The Death Guard didn't run away because they were being decimated by Guilliman and were awestruck by his new Marines, they retreated because:

 

-Their supply line to the Scourge Stars was cut off when Espandor was retaken.

 

-Their forces in the Maccrage system had been driven off when the primarch arrived.

 

-They had committed a bulk of their forces to Parmenio (including the entire Plague Fleet under Typhus) and they were losing that battle.

 

-Their final stronghold at Iax was being attacked by Guilliman himself.

 

-8,000 Primaris Marines and a huge reinforcement fleet led by Guilliman and the Maccrage's Honour has arrived and was changing the calculus of the battle.

 

-More Ultramarine successors and Imperial reinforcements were on their way.

 

-The Ultramarines figured out that by targeting and destroying the Plague Engines, they could instantly stop the supply of Plague Zombies from a planet and free it from the influence of Nurgle.

 

So Guilliman did not just run at the largest concentration of Death Guard and beat Mortarion's head in. He realized that the Ultramarines would definitely lose a war of attrition and changed the rules of the game by destroying the Plague Engines, cutting the supply lines for Mortarion's invasion and continuously bringing in reinforcements from his own supply routes which he devoted a lot of resources to defending. All of this put the Death Guard on the wrong side of a war of attrition for once.

 

Guilliman won in a believable way with a solid strategy, not just through plot armor.

[Claws and Effect]

I want the next Loyalist Primarch to return to be one that doesn't just do whatever Rob says.

 

Probably getting Lion or Russ next, though. I suppose Lion could fit the bill though.

 

Being a Raven Guard fan, I want Corax to return after Lorgar reappears. Just the narrative possibility of that sounds cool.

 

------------------------------------

 

Lorgar stops in his tracks, suddenly aware of the unmistakable sensation of being watched.

 

"Fool. The Gods favor me. You have no hope of victory."

 

His boast is greeted by silence, and the sensation of being watched subtly shifts to that of being stalked.

 

In the darkness, a form gradually comes into focus. With an abrupt crackle power fields come in to being around a pair of talon-like lightning claws. The light from the figure's claws reveals a gaunt, deathly pale face and eyes like black pits. There is no mercy in them.

 

The figure chuckles quietly at the quizzical expression on Lorgar's face.

 

"So, we meet again.....brother." The figure spits in a voice barely more than a whisper "It's time to finish what I started on Istvaan, traitor. Curze isn't here to save you this time."

 

With that, Corax vanishes from plain sight, with the still audible power fields the only indication that he is still present.

[Garreck]

I don't think the setting has changed much even with the recent plot advances.  What's changed is the perspective.  We're not seeing events mostly through the eyes of a commissar watching his battalion's flesh melt under a plague before he is eviscerated by some hellish monster, we're seeing the events from the perspective of the greatest heroes (and villians.)

 

It's not to my taste...but it's also mostly ignorable.  The setting is still grim and dark.  The return of Guilliman has upset the balance of power in the Imperium which is a plot venue still wide open for exploration in future plot development.  The Imperium is still beset from threats within and without.  Mankind survives only under the momentum of its own existence.  It's still a dystopian far future.

[Adeptus]

The problem isn't the execution of Guillaman saving Ultramar or Baal being spared, it's the deus ex machina style of salvation. They set up this potent threat and then immediately devalue it by introducing a perfect foil.

 

It's like if in A New Hope, instead of the rebels making a suicide run for a one-on-a-million shot, Admiral Ackbar turned up with his own enormous battle station and a bunch of starfighter pilots that were better than Luke and Wedge, and blew the Deathstar up. It removes all the tension and drama.

 

It's the natural problem of having a story rather than a setting. People are invested in the players so you can't kill any off, which means all your story developments are ultimately meaningless. Chaos will never win,the Imperium will never die, etc etc.

[Bronze Beast in the Dark]

A crusade that lasts over 100 years is Guillaman stomping all over Chaos?

 

There were generations of humans who knew nothing but the same war. Feels pretty grimdark to me.

 

I'm not worried about the loss of Grimdark in the setting until there is a diplomacy phase in the game.

[Adeptus]

It just feels like there's no need for anyone to worry any more, because as soon as things get a bit scary, Guilliman will turn up with 10,000 super marines and save the day. And like, all the old Marines can settle into retirement because the new marines are bigger, stronger, better equipped and able to be mass produced.

 

It's certainly not all roses, what with the cicatrix maledictus and all, and Guilliman isn't even the worst offender, egregious Mary Sue that he is, it's the Primaris marines that really rub me the wrong way. They're just such a lazy crutch, and they greatly devalue the existing Astartes.

[DogWelder]

It just feels like there's no need for anyone to worry any more, because as soon as things get a bit scary, Guilliman will turn up with 10,000 super marines and save the day. And like, all the old Marines can settle into retirement because the new marines are bigger, stronger, better equipped and able to be mass produced.

 

It's certainly not all roses, what with the cicatrix maledictus and all, and Guilliman isn't even the worst offender, egregious Mary Sue that he is, it's the Primaris marines that really rub me the wrong way. They're just such a lazy crutch, and they greatly devalue the existing Astartes.

 

Well the existing Astartes who qualify can always be upgraded into Primaris Marines.

 

For example, Cato SIcarius has been upgraded to a Primaris.

[Sete]

Source

[RikuEru]

Well, of course there is this 'Noblebright' aspect to Guilliman and his Crusade.

 

But even he himself IN-UNIVERSE realizes there is no victory achievable, just a symbolic victory celebration to spread more of said hope.

 

The Destruction of Cadia and the spread of the Cicatrix Maledictum had horrible consequences. ALL Worlds lost contact to each other and NO ONE saw the Astronomicon! And even now it glimmers and flickers. The Warp Scar is visible on every world's night sky.

Civil Wars shook many worlds or entire systems. Mutations and Psykers spread rampant and there were no Black ships available to collect them. Many Astropaths just died horrible deaths, some navigators aswell, i think. Many Ships in the Warp were crushed, overtaken or -atleast- thrown of course. Time and its speed are relative in some regions of space.

And demons and Traitors appeared frequently. It's unclear how many worlds fell. It's even unclear how many Space Marine Chapters were lost, but a few are declared dead in the rulebook.

And only a mass appearance of the Legion of the Damned apparently saved hundreds of worlds from certain doom. If that hadn't happened... Guilliman probably would've only found dead or demon worlds on his Crusade.

And Chaos isn't even fighting as one, because they have escalated the war BETWEEN each other aswell.

 

The Imperium is in a similiar, if not WORSE, state than before.

Yes of course the Primaris and Cawl's superinventions apparently give the Imperium a bigger chance now. ...but it is not like Chaos hasn't pumped up their Forces everywhere.

Yes, Cadia was lost, but the other Planets in the Cadian System are trying to stem the tide against the forces streaming out of the Eye.

[Chaplain Killmer]

Well over all the years since the 2nd edition GW always hinted that not all the primarchs got lost for good. Even with one walking around it doesn't change much for the ongoing campaigns. If winning or losing a thousand of worlds doesnt affect the Empire at all - not for the better nor for the worth - just read the fluff bits of Solarmarchall Solarius... Now there is just the backswing of the chaos campain of the end of the 7th edition. There is still only war. None of the Xenos has been beaten back. None of the problems in the Empire got fixed - and the new primaris Marines are just a drop on a hot Stone.

[Marshal Rohr]

Abaddon lost the most in all these fluff changes.

[Lexington]

Well over all the years since the 2nd edition GW always hinted that not all the primarchs got lost for good. Even with one walking around it doesn't change much for the ongoing campaigns.

Regardless of how it would or wouldn't change the physical facts of the universe, Guilliman's return is still an enormous change to the basic narrative structure of 40K. The Imperium was an empire of men - mortal men - whose gods had long since died or gone into hiding. It was that mortal empire against a universe with some very tangible, active gods and their followers. That fact always made the Imperium work as the "little guy," made its situation more desperate and its victories a delay of the inevitable. The hint was always there that the Primarchs and the Emperor would walk again, sure, but that was promised to be the actual End of All Things, and we all know nothing's actually ending, here. Instead, we're get a cheap retread of the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy era, with all the impact and drama of your average coloring book. 40K is definitely different now, and much worse for the change.

 

It's certainly not all roses, what with the cicatrix maledictus and all, and Guilliman isn't even the worst offender, egregious Mary Sue that he is, it's the Primaris marines that really rub me the wrong way. They're just such a lazy crutch, and they greatly devalue the existing Astartes.

I think the real problem with the way Primaris are portrayed as the Great Saviors of the galaxy is that it's a really dumb idea, and it makes normal Marines look even dumber by comparison. We all love Space Marines, sure, but the fact is that they're a really small, almost negligible component of the overall Imperial war machine. They're Space Marines, after all - they're good at Marine stuff, like boarding actions, short-range annihilation and other shock trooper roles, but they're not actually the key to winning any large-scale war. There's just not enough of them, be it one thousand or ten. An extra foot of height and tooling around in anti-grav tanks doesn't change much about that equation.

[Vesper]

What I dislike the most out of the new fluff is how it lacks consistency with the universe it is applied to. There is no way the Imperium from Codex Imperialis wouldn't have blown up in civil war after the return of Guiliman. Same goes with the Mecanicum and the experiments of Cawl being endorsed by a guy resurrected by Xenos.

 

How come fiercely idependant chapters don't gun Primaris down when they come by ? How come their creation doesn't come as maddened tinkering with the genetical material of Primarchs ? How come they aren't seen for what they are : a gross intervention of Guiliman in the matters of other chapters ? How come some chapters don't undertake a Beheading type of crusade on Guiliman ?

 

That doesn't make sense. So I can't like it.

 

What was cool about 40k's Imperium is that unlike 30k, it is actually the Imperium of Man, ruled by men for Mankind, with all their faults, failings, limits we can relate to. It is an absolute vital part of the gritty feel of the setting. There isn't any lab reject or any psychic god to lead Mankind. The return of Roboute, to me, speaks volume about the studio's lack of imagination. And, as I explained above, the consistency has been thrown out the window. It sucks the Imperium of Man became the Imperium of Guili...man.

[Space Truckin]

To sum up everything again I go back to Metallica.

Some of us loved and still love everything Cliff Burton.  

 

Kill 'em All, Ride the Lightening, Master of Puppets =  this is what we know and love about Metallica.  Harder, Faster and Louder than anything out there at that time.

And Justice For All =  great album - We miss you Cliff but  you live on through the music and you  can still hear a bit in these songs

Garage Days - ok it's fun, Metallica doing  Misfits and Killing Joke covers  is as good as peanut butter and chocolate

The Black Album -  ok it's still Metallica... - and it's getting radio play but meh... Metallica is better than no Metallica right?

Load / ReLoad =   Not exactly what I was looking for in a Metallica record.  Where's my Megadeth cds?

....  everything after that really lost interest

What made Metallica to me wasn't Metallica anymore but sure I can still listen to their older albums and do.    ( as I intend to keep playing SWA and Space Hulk)

[Vesper]

Being a Raven Guard fan, I want Corax to return after Lorgar reappears. Just the narrative possibility of that sounds cool.

 

I actually don't want Lorgar to ever reappear. I love the fact he doesn't do anything ever again just because he realizes his part in the cosmic order is over. He has played the role he was supposed to and now the Galaxy has no place for him while still being a Galaxy he shaped. Now, for him, only moments of meditation and contemplation remain.

 

That's a subtle end of a character arc, and I like it for that's a rarity in the setting.

 

In before LORGAR VS GUILIMAN ROUND #58453745681 OLOLOL.

 

 

And while I'm posting, please, I want to understand, since the Macragge's Honour has been taken by the Red Corsairs during Gathering Storm 3, where does the Macragge's Honour in Guiliman and Cawl's exciting adventures come from ?

Damn, I picture Huron sailing the stars in his new ride : Macragge's Shame.

[DogWelder]

 

Being a Raven Guard fan, I want Corax to return after Lorgar reappears. Just the narrative possibility of that sounds cool.

 

I actually don't want Lorgar to ever reappear. I love the fact he doesn't do anything ever again just because he realizes his part in the cosmic order is over. He has played the role he was supposed to and now the Galaxy has no place for him while still being a Galaxy he shaped. Now, for him, only moments of meditation and contemplation remain.

 

That's a subtle end of a character arc, and I like it for that's a rarity in the setting.

 

In before LORGAR VS GUILIMAN ROUND #58453745681 OLOLOL.

 

 

And while I'm posting, please, I want to understand, since the Macragge's Honour has been taken by the Red Corsairs during Gathering Storm 3, where does the Macragge's Honour in Guiliman and Cawl's exciting adventures come from ?

Damn, I picture Huron sailing the stars in his new ride : Macragge's Shame.

 

 

I assume they retook it somewhere during the 100 year timeskip.

[civsmitty]

Maybe I'm just a cynical old fool (in fact, I'm fairly certain I am), but all of these changes to the fluff, the "regret" over the Codex Astartes, Primaris, Imperium v Chaos: With Some Aliens....it smacks of two things:

 

1: GW is aware, and jealous, of the popularity of the Horus Heresy system. They are attempting to duplicate this popularity but have taken the wrong lessons from it. 

 

2: They are appealing to the lowest common denominator of their fanbase because that's all they know how to do. The current crop of authors has no idea how to write for anyone that isn't a noble Astartes or a lowly human. I don't even think this is about money, I just think they don't know their various factions well enough to really give them some life and background. That's why the villains are just so "Saturday Morning Cartoon" evil.

[Vesper]

 

 

 

And while I'm posting, please, I want to understand, since the Macragge's Honour has been taken by the Red Corsairs during Gathering Storm 3, where does the Macragge's Honour in Guiliman and Cawl's exciting adventures come from ?

Damn, I picture Huron sailing the stars in his new ride : Macragge's Shame.

 

 

I assume they retook it somewhere during the 100 year timeskip.

 

 

I don't see that happening. I think it's more likely Cawl had a spare one hidden somewhere and gave it to Guiliman.

 

[DogWelder]

 

 

 

 

And while I'm posting, please, I want to understand, since the Macragge's Honour has been taken by the Red Corsairs during Gathering Storm 3, where does the Macragge's Honour in Guiliman and Cawl's exciting adventures come from ?

Damn, I picture Huron sailing the stars in his new ride : Macragge's Shame.

 

 

I assume they retook it somewhere during the 100 year timeskip.

 

 

I don't see that happening. I think it's more likely Cawl had a spare one hidden somewhere and gave it to Guiliman.

 

 

 

It's specifically stated in the novel that it is the same one from 10,000 years ago. Guilliman himself confirms it. 

 

Tho technically an Ultramarine successor Chapter does have a "spare".

 

The Nemesis Chapter has the Lex Talonis, a captured Word Bearer Gloriana class from the Horus Heresy.

[Sete]

I'm still waiting for the source that Cato is a Primaris now Caius.

 

About the ship the studio wrote something Guy Haley wrote another.

 

Don't bother with it. Just another inconsistency on this poor fluff.

[Vesper]

 

 

 

 

 

And while I'm posting, please, I want to understand, since the Macragge's Honour has been taken by the Red Corsairs during Gathering Storm 3, where does the Macragge's Honour in Guiliman and Cawl's exciting adventures come from ?

Damn, I picture Huron sailing the stars in his new ride : Macragge's Shame.

 

 

I assume they retook it somewhere during the 100 year timeskip.

 

 

I don't see that happening. I think it's more likely Cawl had a spare one hidden somewhere and gave it to Guiliman.

 

 

 

It's specifically stated in the novel that it is the same one from 10,000 years ago. Guilliman himself confirms it. 

 

Tho technically an Ultramarine successor Chapter does have a "spare".

 

The Nemesis Chapter has the Lex Talonis, a captured Word Bearer Gloriana class from the Horus Heresy.

 

 

So now the Word Bearers had multiple Glorianas ? I thought that was the Alpha Legion thing to have a second "surprise" Gloriana.

 

Damn, more retcons please !

 

There is no reason to trust Guiliman on the matter of the UM flagship since he lost the Macragge's Honour he may be quite shameful about it and lie. And the fact its loss at the hands of the Red Corsairs isn't adressed anywhere leads me to think it's a spare one and the original might very well be the new toy of Huron.

[DogWelder]

 

 

 

 

 

 

And while I'm posting, please, I want to understand, since the Macragge's Honour has been taken by the Red Corsairs during Gathering Storm 3, where does the Macragge's Honour in Guiliman and Cawl's exciting adventures come from ?

Damn, I picture Huron sailing the stars in his new ride : Macragge's Shame.

 

 

I assume they retook it somewhere during the 100 year timeskip.

 

 

I don't see that happening. I think it's more likely Cawl had a spare one hidden somewhere and gave it to Guiliman.

 

 

 

It's specifically stated in the novel that it is the same one from 10,000 years ago. Guilliman himself confirms it. 

 

Tho technically an Ultramarine successor Chapter does have a "spare".

 

The Nemesis Chapter has the Lex Talonis, a captured Word Bearer Gloriana class from the Horus Heresy.

 

 

So now the Word Bearers had multiple Glorianas ? I thought that was the Alpha Legion thing to have a second "surprise" Gloriana.

 

Damn, more retcons please !

 

There is no reason to trust Guiliman on the matter of the UM flagship since he lost the Macragge's Honour he may be quite shameful about it and lie. And the fact its loss at the hands of the Red Corsairs isn't adressed anywhere leads me to think it's a spare one and the original might very well be the new toy of Huron.

 

 

There are locations in the ship and an entire shrine room that was only built in the Maccrage's Honor. It said that they were preserved for 10k years until the return of the Primarch. 

 

I think your idea of it being Huron's flagship is interesting though. It certainly could be canon for a few decades after Gathering Storm with the Ultramarines having to find a way to get it back. They actually might do a novel on it (most likely).

 

As for the WBs, they had a massive naval buildup before the Heresy. They pumped out a ton of super-battleships. 3 Abyss-Class mega battleships and 2 Glorianas. Problem is that Lorgar skipped his WW2 history and almost always sent them in unsupported against much smaller but numerically superior Ultramarine ships resulting in 2 of the Abyss-Class ships and 1 of the Gloriana Class ones being destroyed in Ultramar with the remaining Gloriana being captured by the Ultramarines who ambushed and boarded it.