Why Recent Noblebright Lore Additions are Good for 40k

[civsmitty]

 

 

 

So now the Word Bearers had multiple Glorianas ? I thought that was the Alpha Legion thing to have a second "surprise" Gloriana.

 

Damn, more retcons please !

 

There is no reason to trust Guiliman on the matter of the UM flagship since he lost the Macragge's Honour he may be quite shameful about it and lie. And the fact its loss at the hands of the Red Corsairs isn't adressed anywhere leads me to think it's a spare one and the original might very well be the new toy of Huron.

 

 

It's pretty clear now that GW has no reservations on robbing from the Traitor Legions to pump up the Loyalists.

[Scribe]

People gave every right to like what they want.

 

Like the individual who brought up Metallica though....

 

Don't bother telling ME that it's better, or that what the Studio pushes is even 40k as it was intended to be.

 

Wrath of Iron is 40ks spirit distilled and amplified to 11, as is proper.

 

This 'hope' is just proof of the Studio losing the tone of the setting.

 

Leave it to BL to save us.

[chapter master 454]

People gave every right to like what they want.

 

Like the individual who brought up Metallica though....

 

Don't bother telling ME that it's better, or that what the Studio pushes is even 40k as it was intended to be.

 

Wrath of Iron is 40ks spirit distilled and amplified to 11, as is proper.

 

This 'hope' is just proof of the Studio losing the tone of the setting.

 

Leave it to BL to save us.

 

Question for you:

Is the Studio losing the tone of the setting or is the studio changing the tone to accommodate new stories?

 

I have already put my point that I sit in the camp whom are happy with the changes overall (not Primaris or Cawl but in general the direction). This is because as much as it was a cool setting, it was getting far to tiresome and impossible to do much within it now for the studio. To be honest they have now kind of decided to let us, the players create the side stories we love, make the battles we fight and the campaigns we play the small stories while they focus on moving things forward.

 

After all, in the far flung future there is no peace, there is no respite, there is only war. That still holds, not like Gulliman's arrival has lessened that aspect, if anything his return has caused more conflict than he has put down. Things are still pretty bad in the imperium and we were about to get one heck of a kick in the teeth if Gulliman didn't get back into the fight.

 

How many would complain if the opposite was true? Suddenly the Cicatrix appears with cadia falling, ultramarines scattered like ash, Terra now constantly getting attack with abbadon slowly but surely approaching the golden throne and there is nothing but hopelessness for the imperium and chaos gets nothing thrown back at it?

If anyone would be happy with that being the direction (which by some sounds like they just want 40k to end with how they talk of wanting it grim dark to the point the title card for 40k may as well be a death metal band) then well that ain't happening. Gulliman came back because you Chaos boys started running around with Magnus, so we needed back-up. Might not seem fair but if the order is that at best the imperium only ever matchs the number of traitor primarchs then I think this is rather dark.

 

Mortarion is now on his way back with bigger and better DG and Gulliman is currently on the back end of the cicatrix trying to pull things back together (which seems to be taking one heck of a long time).

-jumps off soap box and goes to get himself a milkshake...- /rant

[Adeptus]

Maybe I'm just a cynical old fool (in fact, I'm fairly certain I am), but all of these changes to the fluff, the "regret" over the Codex Astartes, Primaris, Imperium v Chaos: With Some Aliens....it smacks of two things:

 

1: GW is aware, and jealous, of the popularity of the Horus Heresy system. They are attempting to duplicate this popularity but have taken the wrong lessons from it.

 

2: They are appealing to the lowest common denominator of their fanbase because that's all they know how to do. The current crop of authors has no idea how to write for anyone that isn't a noble Astartes or a lowly human. I don't even think this is about money, I just think they don't know their various factions well enough to really give them some life and background. That's why the villains are just so "Saturday Morning Cartoon" evil.

The problem was that the crowd jumped up and down demanding that something happen in the lore, that the setting move forward, but they didn't realise that in a setting such as this where pepole are invested in characters and factions, often to the tune of thousands of dolllars, you CAN'T have meaningful outcomes.

[Master Commander Ajax]

 

 

Is the Studio losing the tone of the setting or is the studio changing the tone to accommodate new stories?

See this is where I disagree. The setting as it was presented infinite possibilities with the potential for all sorts of different stories/Campaigns/models etc. To me the changes to the lore are simplistic and out of sync with what 40k is/was all about. 

[DogWelder]

 

 

 

Is the Studio losing the tone of the setting or is the studio changing the tone to accommodate new stories?

See this is where I disagree. The setting as it was presented infinite possibilities with the potential for all sorts of different stories/Campaigns/models etc. To me the changes to the lore are simplistic and out of sync with what 40k is/was all about. 

 

 

What do you mean though? So far Guilliman hasn't really done anything that would be out of character

[AgentOrange]

 

 

Is the Studio losing the tone of the setting or is the studio changing the tone to accommodate new stories?

See this is where I disagree. The setting as it was presented infinite possibilities with the potential for all sorts of different stories/Campaigns/models etc. To me the changes to the lore are simplistic and out of sync with what 40k is/was all about.

Can you provide an example of a story/campaign/model that was possible before but is no longer possible now? Aside from a returned Guilliman or improved Space Marine models since they are no longer possible as we have both.

[Scribe]

 

People gave every right to like what they want.

 

Like the individual who brought up Metallica though....

 

Don't bother telling ME that it's better, or that what the Studio pushes is even 40k as it was intended to be.

 

Wrath of Iron is 40ks spirit distilled and amplified to 11, as is proper.

 

This 'hope' is just proof of the Studio losing the tone of the setting.

 

Leave it to BL to save us.

 

Question for you:

Is the Studio losing the tone of the setting or is the studio changing the tone to accommodate new stories?

 

One and the same to me. Its irrelevant if they are losing the tone by accident (hard to believe they could write fluff THAT poorly or misunderstand the setting THAT poorly, but look around, people argue that it wasnt a Crapsack Dystopia already...and they are wrong) or intentionally.

 

I would hope its an intentional shift, because at least then its not blatant ignorance, its just misguided pandering. :]

[DogWelder]

 

 

People gave every right to like what they want.

 

Like the individual who brought up Metallica though....

 

Don't bother telling ME that it's better, or that what the Studio pushes is even 40k as it was intended to be.

 

Wrath of Iron is 40ks spirit distilled and amplified to 11, as is proper.

 

This 'hope' is just proof of the Studio losing the tone of the setting.

 

Leave it to BL to save us.

 

Question for you:

Is the Studio losing the tone of the setting or is the studio changing the tone to accommodate new stories?

 

One and the same to me. Its irrelevant if they are losing the tone by accident (hard to believe they could write fluff THAT poorly or misunderstand the setting THAT poorly, but look around, people argue that it wasnt a Crapsack Dystopia already...and they are wrong) or intentionally.

 

I would hope its an intentional shift, because at least then its not blatant ignorance, its just misguided pandering. :]

 

 

Like I said, maybe they're trying to give both camps of players (people who just want grimdarkness and people who want more hopeful/victorious tones) a piece of the setting. Thats why there are several parts of the Imperium now. The old, zealously religious and traditionalist faction, Guilliman and Cawl's faction and the people stuck in Imperium Nihilus.

[Scribe]

It wont work. This isnt about Subsection A or Subsection B.

 

Its about the central truth of a setting. Deeper and more defining than anything else going on within that setting, its about the definition of the setting.

 

It is (was?) a Cracksack World Dystopia. End of discussion. Things cannot improve. Efforts to improve result (like in Gathering Storm 1, for a moment) in even larger failure and a situation worse than before.

 

If that changes, its no longer 40K, its really that simple.

 

EDIT: And you can like it, you can think like some people that the universe needs hope, and progression and growth. Thats your right and opinion. Just dont tell people that disagree, that its the same 40K, because it isnt, at a more fundamental and 'serious' level than most people care about, its not the same, and to us, its less for that change.

[Master Commander Ajax]

 

 

What do you mean though? So far Guilliman hasn't really done anything that would be out of character

He hasn't done anything out of Character which is kind of the point. A Primarch uniting mankind, leading them on a great crusade and ushering in a new era of hope and scientific innovation fits pretty well in the 31st millennium but it's not the grimdark setting of 40k.

 

 

 

Can you provide an example of a story/campaign/model that was possible before but is no longer possible now? Aside from a returned Guilliman or improved Space Marine models since they are no longer possible as we have both. 

They are all still possible but are they likely? I mean there is no reason why you can't just ignore the events of the end times in the age of Sigmar and set your story/campaign/models in the world that was but that's very different to it actually being supported by Games Workshop with actual releases and/or plot development. 

[Adeptus]

I think the important thing is the vibe. The feel. The... I dunno, the brand? The idea?

 

To be a human in the 41st Millennium is to be part of an abandoned people. Their gods are dead or missing, their Emperor a desiccated husk shut away entirely from the common man.

 

I mean, we're all intimately familiar with the 41st Millennium, there's nothing I can tell you that you don't already know, I think the dispute comes from what we consider to be the core values or core truths of the 40K lore, and to me one of the most important parts is the fact that the gods are dead, and there is no hope. The Mechanicum has no idea how things work and are operating off of chinese whispers that have been going on for 10,000 years, the bureaucracy of Terra is impossibly clumsy and inept, and the whole Imperium is basically staggering along with nothing but it's own momentum powering it.

 

But, along comes Guilliman! Demigod reborn, who can restore the Imperium to it's enlightened pre-heresy state, cut the mystic bull:cuss away from the Mechanicus, re-structure the Adeptus Terra, Humanity is not alone, their gods have returned to lead them to the light! And he now has (what appears to be) unlimited Astartes at his disposal! And not just any Astartes, but SUPER Astartes, bigger and stronger than the current ones! 

 

It's just kinda at odds with the setting as we know and love it.

 

The only way they can redeem themselves IMO is to have the Primaris marines be vulnerable to the influence of Chaos, and have all of Guilliman's 8,000 Primaris Marines turn against him, forcing the old Astartes to go toe-to-toe with these newer, bigger versions of themselves. And for Guilliman to either head into a self-imposed exile for the shame of it all, or be expelled from the Imperium for being responsible for introducing these new, Chaos susceptible Primaris Marines.

[DogWelder]

I think the important thing is the vibe. The feel. The... I dunno, the brand? The idea?

 

To be a human in the 41st Millennium is to be part of an abandoned people. Their gods are dead or missing, their Emperor a desiccated husk shut away entirely from the common man.

 

I mean, we're all intimately familiar with the 41st Millennium, there's nothing I can tell you that you don't already know, I think the dispute comes from what we consider to be the core values or core truths of the 40K lore, and to me one of the most important parts is the fact that the gods are dead, and there is no hope. The Mechanicum has no idea how things work and are operating off of chinese whispers that have been going on for 10,000 years, the bureaucracy of Terra is impossibly clumsy and inept, and the whole Imperium is basically staggering along with nothing but it's own momentum powering it.

 

But, along comes Guilliman! Demigod reborn, who can restore the Imperium to it's enlightened pre-heresy state, cut the mystic bull:cuss away from the Mechanicus, re-structure the Adeptus Terra, Humanity is not alone, their gods have returned to lead them to the light! And he now has (what appears to be) unlimited Astartes at his disposal! And not just any Astartes, but SUPER Astartes, bigger and stronger than the current ones! 

 

It's just kinda at odds with the setting as we know and love it.

 

The only way they can redeem themselves IMO is to have the Primaris marines be vulnerable to the influence of Chaos, and have all of Guilliman's 8,000 Primaris Marines turn against him, forcing the old Astartes to go toe-to-toe with these newer, bigger versions of themselves. And for Guilliman to either head into a self-imposed exile for the shame of it all, or be expelled from the Imperium for being responsible for introducing these new, Chaos susceptible Primaris Marines.

 

Well what would be the point of all the stories if everything is hopeless? :/ I always thought that the struggles of the Imperium, no matter what the citizens of it thought, were a continuation of Mankind's desire to make its dream (and that of the Emperor) into reality despite the odds. Thats what I got from Dark Imperium and Guilliman's thoughts.

 

That's why Guilliman is the perfect primarch to come back imo. He isn't loyal to the Emperor as a person, but rather the Emperor's ideals of civilization, order and domination. 

[Marshal Loss]

Well what would be the point of all the stories if everything is hopeless? :/ 

 

I mean, well...that's quintessential 40k. This is a setting. Our battles, our armies, fit into this setting.

 

Dark Imperium is one novel out of a setting that spans decades. 40k has always been about the inevitability of mankind's destruction, the struggle against the dying of the light. The Emperor's dream is dead. Humanity is doomed.

 

So far, this new lore has been very poorly executed. The good news is that individually talented authors can continue to write books pretty much ignoring Guilliman and his shenanigans. The bad news is that it's likely the GW studio will continue to pump out this garbage.

 

Oh well. At last some of the models are nice.

[chapter master 454]

 

Well what would be the point of all the stories if everything is hopeless? :/ 

 

I mean, well...that's quintessential 40k. This is a setting. Our battles, our armies, fit into this setting.

 

Dark Imperium is one novel out of a setting that spans decades. 40k has always been about the inevitability of mankind's destruction, the struggle against the dying of the light. The Emperor's dream is dead. Humanity is doomed.

 

So far, this new lore has been very poorly executed. The good news is that individually talented authors can continue to write books pretty much ignoring Guilliman and his shenanigans. The bad news is that it's likely the GW studio will continue to pump out this garbage.

 

Oh well. At last some of the models are nice.

 

 

So I agree, new stuff is poorly written which I believe is the biggest gripe people have. If it was executed well with actual give and take for each side then there would be something to enjoy (I believe I wrote an ok-ish piece in the 'what would you change in the 8th edition lore' thread where I actually had the ultramarines lose their 1st company again and even killed off tigerius as he revived Gulliman: trading their tyranid master predicter for the demi-god Gulliman who knows NOTHING of them rather than have some new guy randomly appear with super marines).

In regards to the primaris I believe there are snippets and hints that they are vulnerable to corruption with things like 'their stability is in question' and stuff like such along with being largely pre-heresy guys. Very possible we will see a good portion of them turn, after all if the chaos can get it's claws into a Primarch (or 9) then I am sure we will get Primaris going chaos. They just aren't saying so because it might be a twist they are holding on to for now.

 

 However one problem I have is this concept of having the entire universe be entirely hopeless. For Horror with say HP lovecraft, that works because that's the intent however we aren't HP lovecraft and this isn't cthulu we are dealing with. What we find in the great enemy are just manifestations of humanities own emotions (and the eldar's incredible ability to...well...do THAT) and they have been quite clearly made so they can be fought back as we have all already accepted in the form of us being able to fight the Daemons, being able to fight their traitor astartes. While it's tough and I mean really tough, they are not infallible like the Imperium isn't infallible. We both have incredibly powerful weapons, in fact chaos has more because while we have Titans and Baneblades along with all those good stuff, you have them with each regiment that turns, with each legio that betrayed AND you get Daemons. We only got minor weaponry upgrades (Land Speeders and maybe a few other things? Can't compare with being able to bring to bear an entire codex of new units to your arsenal).

 This is further compounded by Tyranids fighting us like Saitama and never go all out, the Orks are nearly there are bowling us over (Armageddon, the Lynchpin world of the Imperiums wars is an example of how strong Orks are when we can't use our rather stupid win button of exterminatus), Eldar doing whatever they feel unless the smurfs get involved (bad writing to be fair) and to top it off we have some random new Xenos on the eastern Fringe making our tech look outdated by the span of the emperors internment within the throne.

 

 This all piles up and it piles up to a very important point: There is no hope, LITERALLY. Not a phrase, not a simple catchphrase or even part of an introduction but quite literally the Hope shop just had it's clearance 90% off hope sale and they are now gone and there is literally no hope. When we read all those stories, some didn't have hope but a lot had that small hope in there. A guardsman holding to the last so his people might be saved, the idea of Shrike coming to save them, the fact the Imperium COULD win and actually fulfill the dream of the emperor, maybe not as intended but still could. This is the core of what makes picking a side important because I STICK with Marines because they are cool, I stick with them because there IS and you can't argue otherwise that there was always that Hope we would win. If we couldn't I would jump ship to Tau and begin plowing with Battlesuits because I don't fight hopeless fights, NO-ONE does.

 There is no fear without hope, there is no happiness without sadness, there is no anger without calm. It is a simple concept that once one is gone the other also disappears for there is nothing to go with it because now it has no opposite to say it exists because that is all that exists. If there is no hope then there is no imperium because it means nothing and thus has no hooks for anyone, why pick the losing side? It wouldn't even be the underdog, it would just be the side that loses EVERYTHING and doesn't stop losing because losing is all that it can do.

 

Noblebright is needed to help us bring the Grimdark to a much more interesting point. I will concede is takes a degree of writing finese but that is another discussion for another day in regards to what really is wrong with 40k lore: the fact it previously was all throw away writing thus never had high standards vs. now it is big important centre pieces with high standards?

 

There is no darkness without light, and the brighter the light the darker the shadows and oh boy there is one heck of a bright light shining right now and he's the opposite side of the biggest wall so I think things are looking pretty dark or are about to be. Especially since the next tail is Gulliman vs. Mortarion (which one can see in the rulebook are really awesome piece where Morty is flying above the battlefield, clearly going straight for G-man). Maybe then people might be happy once Mort gets into this and does some work since Magnus was too busy trying to settle feuds with the Space Pups.

[Marshal Loss]

Right, I had to re-read your post a few times, because I found it more than a little perplexing. If you want hope, that's fine, because there can still be hope.

 

 This all piles up and it piles up to a very important point: There is no hope, LITERALLY. Not a phrase, not a simple catchphrase or even part of an introduction but quite literally the Hope shop just had it's clearance 90% off hope sale and they are now gone and there is literally no hope. When we read all those stories, some didn't have hope but a lot had that small hope in there. A guardsman holding to the last so his people might be saved, the idea of Shrike coming to save them, the fact the Imperium COULD win and actually fulfill the dream of the emperor, maybe not as intended but still could. This is the core of what makes picking a side important because I STICK with Marines because they are cool, I stick with them because there IS and you can't argue otherwise that there was always that Hope we would win. If we couldn't I would jump ship to Tau and begin plowing with Battlesuits because I don't fight hopeless fights, NO-ONE does.

 There is no fear without hope, there is no happiness without sadness, there is no anger without calm. It is a simple concept that once one is gone the other also disappears for there is nothing to go with it because now it has no opposite to say it exists because that is all that exists. If there is no hope then there is no imperium because it means nothing and thus has no hooks for anyone, why pick the losing side? It wouldn't even be the underdog, it would just be the side that loses EVERYTHING and doesn't stop losing because losing is all that it can do.

 

 

This is a strange argument. The Imperium of Man being doomed doesn't mean that there is 'literally no hope in the universe.' That would make for a setting more suited for a Monty Python sketch than a tabletop wargame. The point is that from the Horus Heresy onwards, humanity is doomed. Chaos has won. The Webway Project was, however, a secret. Virtually nobody knew about it even when it was operational, and by 40k it's unlikely anybody knows. Guilliman certainly never did. And so for the 10,000 years from the Heresy onwards, the Imperium was forced to become this giant, oppressive, horrific entity, doing whatever it took to survive. It's unlikely many (if any) people know that humanity is doomed, let alone why.

 

The bloated carcass of the Imperium is beset on all sides, and within, by a multitude of horrors. The sins of humanity literally come back to haunt them. The remnants of ancient empires seek to take what was theirs. An insatiable hunger comes from the outer dark. The greenskins become ever more a nuisance. The Tau, optimistic (but with a dark core) because of their lack of exposure to the horrors of the universe, attack with high-tech weaponry making a mockery of humanity's regressive nature. Cults tear apart worlds from within. The populations of worlds, even entire systems, are reduced to numbers on a data-slate, figures in a never-ending calculation that aims only to keep the Imperium alive, one day at a time.

 

I mean, this is a setting that responds to most problems with planet-ending weaponry. The terminology is often a little over-dramatic.

 

It doesn't mean your armies or your people can't be fighting for lofty ideals or filled with hope, because in the context of the setting, that's fine, but it doesn't change the reality of the galaxy in which they live. That's all I'm saying.

 

 

Noblebright is needed to help us bring the Grimdark to a much more interesting point. I will concede is takes a degree of writing finese but that is another discussion for another day in regards to what really is wrong with 40k lore: the fact it previously was all throw away writing thus never had high standards vs. now it is big important centre pieces with high standards?

 

There is no darkness without light, and the brighter the light the darker the shadows and oh boy there is one heck of a bright light shining right now and he's the opposite side of the biggest wall so I think things are looking pretty dark or are about to be. Especially since the next tail is Gulliman vs. Mortarion (which one can see in the rulebook are really awesome piece where Morty is flying above the battlefield, clearly going straight for G-man). Maybe then people might be happy once Mort gets into this and does some work since Magnus was too busy trying to settle feuds with the Space Pups.

 

Well that is about as subjective as you can get. I think that the idea that 'grimdark' needs 'noblebright' to be interesting is ridiculous. The grimdark nature of 40k is a large part of what makes it so unique, and the setting so memorable. If you didn't like the way 40k is/was, that's cool, but arguing that it should change because you don't like it being grimdark is bizarre. That's what makes 40k...well, 40k...

 

And judging by the lore in the rulebook, Mortarion's appearance was incredibly underwhelming. Hopefully Guy Haley's future novels salvage it, as at least Dark Imperium was a step up from the rulebook. The whole thing has been handled horrifically. By revolving around Guilliman, they make a mockery of the scale of the setting. One thing we can agree on is the poor standard of the writing.

 

As it currently stands, I dislike the change in direction, but if the quality changes, I'm more than happy to revise my opinion. This whole thing feels like there's too much 30k being thrown in.

 

edit: phone mucked up font size for whatever reason

[Sete]

The space pups are called Space Wolves.

 

The mods were all over people about Guilliman name, so let's make it fair for everyone alright?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It wont work. This isnt about Subsection A or Subsection B.

 

Its about the central truth of a setting. Deeper and more defining than anything else going on within that setting, its about the definition of the setting.

 

It is (was?) a Cracksack World Dystopia. End of discussion. Things cannot improve. Efforts to improve result (like in Gathering Storm 1, for a moment) in even larger failure and a situation worse than before.

 

If that changes, its no longer 40K, its really that simple.

 

EDIT: And you can like it, you can think like some people that the universe needs hope, and progression and growth. Thats your right and opinion. Just dont tell people that disagree, that its the same 40K, because it isnt, at a more fundamental and 'serious' level than most people care about, its not the same, and to us, its less for that change.

You sir. I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Scribe]

 

I think the important thing is the vibe. The feel. The... I dunno, the brand? The idea?

 

To be a human in the 41st Millennium is to be part of an abandoned people. Their gods are dead or missing, their Emperor a desiccated husk shut away entirely from the common man.

 

I mean, we're all intimately familiar with the 41st Millennium, there's nothing I can tell you that you don't already know, I think the dispute comes from what we consider to be the core values or core truths of the 40K lore, and to me one of the most important parts is the fact that the gods are dead, and there is no hope. The Mechanicum has no idea how things work and are operating off of chinese whispers that have been going on for 10,000 years, the bureaucracy of Terra is impossibly clumsy and inept, and the whole Imperium is basically staggering along with nothing but it's own momentum powering it.

 

But, along comes Guilliman! Demigod reborn, who can restore the Imperium to it's enlightened pre-heresy state, cut the mystic bull:cuss away from the Mechanicus, re-structure the Adeptus Terra, Humanity is not alone, their gods have returned to lead them to the light! And he now has (what appears to be) unlimited Astartes at his disposal! And not just any Astartes, but SUPER Astartes, bigger and stronger than the current ones! 

 

It's just kinda at odds with the setting as we know and love it.

 

The only way they can redeem themselves IMO is to have the Primaris marines be vulnerable to the influence of Chaos, and have all of Guilliman's 8,000 Primaris Marines turn against him, forcing the old Astartes to go toe-to-toe with these newer, bigger versions of themselves. And for Guilliman to either head into a self-imposed exile for the shame of it all, or be expelled from the Imperium for being responsible for introducing these new, Chaos susceptible Primaris Marines.

 

Well what would be the point of all the stories if everything is hopeless? :/ I always thought that the struggles of the Imperium, no matter what the citizens of it thought, were a continuation of Mankind's desire to make its dream (and that of the Emperor) into reality despite the odds. Thats what I got from Dark Imperium and Guilliman's thoughts.

 

That's why Guilliman is the perfect primarch to come back imo. He isn't loyal to the Emperor as a person, but rather the Emperor's ideals of civilization, order and domination. 

 

 

Because doing what is right, is not dependent upon the likelihood of success.

 

The struggles of the Imperium are not, or were not, a continuation of Mankind's desire's. They were a stubborn denial of extinction. Humanity did not fight, following the Heresy, in the hopes of living the dream of the Emperor at all. The Imperium fights because to not do so, is craven. To RESIST is what makes the setting what it is.

 

Its depressing that the central point of 40K has been lost and looking at a few posts here it most clearly is not being communicated well at all.

 

I mean its at the forefront of nearly every book?

 

Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned.

Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war.

There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

[AgentOrange]

You're making it sound like humanity is doing what's right. Even if there's more hope for humanity, humanity still isn't good or heroic in the 40k setting. Even if we tone down the zealotry and fascism back to 30k levels, 30k humanity was still all about join or die and the elimination of any divergent culture and thought. There's still no good in 40k, just easier to cheer for evil.

[bluntblade]

There's good, just an extremely tarnished good. The paths set out for Mankind are allegiance to the Emperor, slavery to the Pantheon or simply annihilation.

 

A lot of stuff just seems very simplistic. Like we don't even get a rogue sect of brilliant Magos following the example of Koriel Zeth from the good old days. We get a single (upgraded to a whole heap of himself) Magos who has the answer to everything and has been hiding until he's needed.

[Scribe]

Again however, the point is not 'Good' = Humanity.

 

The setting is beyond good and evil, it used to force you to contemplate 'how far would you go to exist?' The 'good guys' performing acts that are morally evil (please people read Wrath of Iron I beg you) in the name of survival is what made the setting what it was.

[chapter master 454]

Looking back at my post, the reading responses I begin to truly wonder myself: is it the direction or is it just the writing quality that's at fault?

Maybe both...hmm...also note to maybe check myself before I post things, clearly wasn't stable when i posted those latest two. Feel I was too aggressive and I want to actually debate, not shout and stand stubbornly like an imperial fist on what I feel is right and wrong...need to take a moment to fully digest ideas. Why is wearing other people's power shoes so hard?

[AgentOrange]

Again however, the point is not 'Good' = Humanity.

 

The setting is beyond good and evil, it used to force you to contemplate 'how far would you go to exist?' The 'good guys' performing acts that are morally evil (please people read Wrath of Iron I beg you) in the name of survival is what made the setting what it was.

 

I've read it.  Didn't think much of it.  None of the Space Marine Battles books do it for me, and if I'm going to read about Iron Hands I want to read about Kardan Stronos.

 

And how are the "good guys" not still performing acts that are morally evil?  Are they not still sacrificing 10,000 psykers a day for a galactic lighthouse?  Are they not still imprisoning children in slave labor camps?  Are they not still lobotomizing and mutilating people for servitors to perform menial tasks?  Humanity is still reprehensibly evil post-Guiliman.  The only difference is the models look better.

[Scribe]

If a tree falls but nobody hears it does it happen?

 

If people can honestly ask if hope is good for the setting then GW dun goofed.

 

Because you are right, everything that was right in 40K is still there, but if the focus is on things which the studio tries to push as positive, and progress, and hope?

 

Then the central truth of the setting is lost, misunderstood (clearly as we see in this and other threads) or changed.

 

Edit: And if you're telling me that the end of Wrath of Iron is not distilled 40k, then we just cannot see eye to eye. :p