Why Recent Noblebright Lore Additions are Good for 40k

[AgentOrange]

If a tree falls but nobody hears it does it happen?

 

If people can honestly ask if hope is good for the setting then GW dun goofed.

 

Because you are right, everything that was right in 40K is still there, but if the focus is on things which the studio tries to push as positive, and progress, and hope?

 

Then the central truth of the setting is lost, misunderstood (clearly as we see in this and other threads) or changed.

 

Edit: And if you're telling me that the end of Wrath of Iron is not distilled 40k, then we just cannot see eye to eye.

 

That goes back to what ADB keeps saying though.  The setting isn't changed, like you said everything that was right in 40K is still there.  The studio may be pushing something "progressive" but that's story, not setting.  And I don't think progress or wins for the Imperium are pushing more positivity into the setting, as 40K humanity is still a reprehensible and atrocious group.  They might be tricking more people into cheering for the evil facists who look like us by pushing their victories in the focus narrative, but the setting itself hasn't changed.

[Blindhamster]

Nothing at all wrong with a little hope...

Some chapters are specifically surviving and persevering on hope.

Hell, Blood Angels have a unique oath in Deathwatch RPG called "Oath of Hope" because they believe in a possible better future for humanity. They continue to try to find a "cure" because of hope, they didn't give up when their home was assaulted due to Hope (this last one is obviously a recent example). Mephiston continues to try to determine what he is because he Hopes it is something good etc. A reason I always loved Blood Angels was the idea that they were Noble, Heroic and had Hope. (For reference, I've been in the hobby 20 years - I originally liked them because they were red, I've grown up from my 9 year old self a bit and have other reasons now).

The arrival of the Emperors Angels of Death stirs hope in loyal members of the Imperium when they are under assault from (insert some form of threat here).


The Imperium having come up with some new technology is fine, it actually makes sense and honestly I think it's dumb we've not had it happen much much sooner, sure the execution of how it was created could have been a little better (multiple priests for example would be better than one).Guilliman coming back was also fine - it was done in a very suspect way that tarnishes the entire thing, and Guy Haley has done an awesome job of showing that whilst Guilliman has made a difference and appears as a beacon of hope, he himself has very little and recognises the Imperium isn't much better off.

The saying of "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war" remains true - even more so as now we have more threats to humanity than we've ever had before, and the greatest one (chaos) has even more ways to attack than it used to have thanks to the big old rift. The Imperium isn't being depicted as winning, just that they've made a small advance in tech and have hope, there's no suggestion that it's anything other than false hope, so I'm fine with it.

[DogWelder]

If a tree falls but nobody hears it does it happen?

 

If people can honestly ask if hope is good for the setting then GW dun goofed.

 

Because you are right, everything that was right in 40K is still there, but if the focus is on things which the studio tries to push as positive, and progress, and hope?

 

Then the central truth of the setting is lost, misunderstood (clearly as we see in this and other threads) or changed.

 

Edit: And if you're telling me that the end of Wrath of Iron is not distilled 40k, then we just cannot see eye to eye.

 

See, the thing is I really can't buy into the whole "Imperium is actually evil" thing.

 

Even if they are, they are clearly by far the lesser evil.

 

Chaos is just straight up insane.

 

The xenos want to enslave/wipe out mankind.

 

The Imperium, although a corrupt and fanatical organization, is still the best hope for civilization. There really is no other alternative. 

 

Not to mention the Imperium (or a very small part of it at least) can change. Guilliman showed us that with the 500 worlds and the new reforms he planned in Dark imperium. 

[Scribe]

Winning battles happens all the time.

 

Developing and fielding new gear, better marines, and delivering a promise of hope in the meta plot, is my problem, because it leads to threads like this.

 

It presents a picture which is out of step with what the setting is about and confuses people newer to the setting.

 

'What do you mean my marines are kidnapped children tortured, mentally abused and brainwashed to kill in the name of a tyrannical corpse who feasts on the literal souls of 10,000 men, women, and children a day?'

 

Sell me that story, like ADB does, not tripe about crusading for great Justice.

 

Edit: see above. :)

[AgentOrange]

Winning battles happens all the time.

 

Developing and fielding new gear, better marines, and delivering a promise of hope in the meta plot, is my problem, because it leads to threads like this.

 

It presents a picture which is out of step with what the setting is about and confuses people newer to the setting.

 

'What do you mean my marines are kidnapped children tortured, mentally abused and brainwashed to kill in the name of a tyrannical corpse who feasts on the literal souls of 10,000 men, women, and children a day?'

 

Sell me that story, like ADB does, not tripe about crusading for great Justice.

 

Edit: see above.

 

I think  confusing people newer to the setting is the point, though.  GW rightfully wants to expand out of our niche audience into something more mainstream.  To sell to the more mainstream, you need to trick them into cheering for the fascists.  Once they're already invested into what they see as heroes, they're already in too far to back out when they realize their heroes are monsters.  This is how they appeal to the masses without actually making it more noblebright.  The public sees a superhuman winning for humanity and cheers.  The superhuman winning for humanity is still expanding a totalitarian crapsack empire, the setting hasn't changed and it hasn't gotten any better, but they're propagandizing it to sell more models.

[DogWelder]

Winning battles happens all the time.

 

Developing and fielding new gear, better marines, and delivering a promise of hope in the meta plot, is my problem, because it leads to threads like this.

 

It presents a picture which is out of step with what the setting is about and confuses people newer to the setting.

 

'What do you mean my marines are kidnapped children tortured, mentally abused and brainwashed to kill in the name of a tyrannical corpse who feasts on the literal souls of 10,000 men, women, and children a day?'

 

Sell me that story, like ADB does, not tripe about crusading for great Justice.

 

Edit: see above.

 

Kidnapped? Doesn't that only happen with a few chapters? I thought they were mostly volunteers.

 

The Ultramarines usually get volunteers from the noble houses of Ultramar who view providing recruits as a great honor. Shira Calpurnia noted that one of her older brothers joined the Ultramarines out of his own will him becoming a 1st Company member caused celebrations throughout their family.

 

The same with the Salamanders. The boys usually join them out of their own will and once their training is complete they are free to visit their families whenever they want (while not on duty).

 

 

[Blindhamster]

And baalite adolescents decide if they want to attempt to become an Angel or not and then attempt the trials. No kidnapping involved.

[Scribe]

Yes, characterisation which is far more palatable and mainstream acceptable than kidnapping children to turn into murderbabies or building super soldiers out of mass murdering prison stock like we used to have. :)

 

It's a softer, gentler, portrayal that's easier to sell to the general public.

 

I'll take my penal legion guards with detonation collars, and sociopaths parading as Savior's any day.

 

Is it better to be forced into service of a genocidal government though, or to volunteer? :D

[DogWelder]

Yes, characterisation which is far more palatable and mainstream acceptable than kidnapping children to turn into murderbabies or building super soldiers out of mass murdering prison stock like we used to have.

 

It's a softer, gentler, portrayal that's easier to sell to the general public.

 

I'll take my penal legion guards with detonation collars, and sociopaths parading as Savior's any day.

 

Is it better to be forced into service of a genocidal government though, or to volunteer?

 

Your description fits Chapters like the Space Sharks who have a more nomadic approach to recruitment. Which is quite logical considering they don't have a reliable recruiting pool and need as many recruits as they can get.

 

However, it really makes no sense to kidnap children when you have millions of teenagers constantly being pumped out from the best military academies/schools on your Chapter's planet/realm all clamoring to join the chapter and their parents encouraging them the whole way. This is more in line of a professional military approach such as what the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists have.

[Scribe]

Yes, hundreds of schools, pumping out thousands of children and aspirants in the pre-teen ages (as implants begin in early teens) who take part in lethal training, and who, if successful, will serve a government until they die in battle, committing genocide on planetary scales when demanded, against the species they once claimed as theirs. I mean what if a world didn't want to be part of the 500? Is there an opt out clause?

 

Sign me up!

[DogWelder]

Yes, hundreds of schools, pumping out thousands of children and aspirants in the pre-teen ages (as implants begin in early teens) who take part in lethal training, and who, if successful, will serve a government until they die in battle, committing genocide on planetary scales when demanded, against the species they once claimed as theirs. I mean what if a world didn't want to be part of the 500? Is there an opt out clause?

 

Sign me up!

 

The opt out clause is written on the knuckles of the Lord of Maccrage's power fist. Any diplomat from the 500 is free to travel to Maccrage and read the inscriptions up close lol

 

But yeah, I get what you mean. I'm just saying that the alternative is so unimaginably bad that any sane individual would gladly join something like the 500 worlds or the Imperium in a heartbeat. That's why I think moral ambiguity doesn't really work in 40k.

 

If Chaos was slightly less bad or if there were more alien species like the Tau who offer better terms for humanity, then the Imperium would certainly look like the fascist helhole it is supposed to be shown as.

[AgentOrange]

 

Yes, hundreds of schools, pumping out thousands of children and aspirants in the pre-teen ages (as implants begin in early teens) who take part in lethal training, and who, if successful, will serve a government until they die in battle, committing genocide on planetary scales when demanded, against the species they once claimed as theirs. I mean what if a world didn't want to be part of the 500? Is there an opt out clause?

 

Sign me up!

 

The opt out clause is written on the knuckles of the Lord of Maccrage's power fist. Any diplomat from the 500 is free to travel to Maccrage and read the inscriptions up close lol

 

But yeah, I get what you mean. I'm just saying that the alternative is so unimaginably bad that any sane individual would gladly join something like the 500 worlds or the Imperium in a heartbeat. That's why I think moral ambiguity doesn't really work in 40k.

 

If Chaos was slightly less bad or if there were more alien species like the Tau who offer better terms for humanity, then the Imperium would certainly look like the fascist helhole it is supposed to be shown as.

 

 

So what you're saying is, the 500 worlds may still be fascist, but at least Rob keeps the trains running on time?  

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So did a certain dictator who ruled Middle Germania during the latter years of the 2nd Millennium.  That doesn't mean either society is/was nice place to live.

[AgentOrange]

So did a certain dictator who ruled Middle Germania during the latter years of the 2nd Millennium.  That doesn't mean either society is/was nice place to live.

 

Italy.  Trains on time was Mussolini, not HItler.  

[Brother Sefiel]

Hello

Statements about "there has never been any hope" are simply false. It was originally irrelevant, as there were no obvious existential threats; these have subsequently been added to the game.

Chaos as a faction did not exist in the original Rogue Trader book. The threat of the tyranids was not a fraction of what it is today. There were no necrons. The warp was undoubtedly a threat in terms of the creatures that it could spawn, but there wasn't an imminent fall of the Imperium scenario. The gradual ramping up of the two minutes to midnight scenario has been added in over decades.

By all means say that you don't like the way that hope has been added to the doom, but to suggest that the doom has always been the focus of the game is factually untrue.

[Scribe]

I think you guys could also go one (well many) steps further in this thought experiment.

 

'Well it's better than the alternative'

 

Then ask yourself, is it? Would you want to live on Terra? Would you want to live in a setting where your best hope on a major world would be to live a completely uneventful life, and die without being noticed by anyone powerful, Imperial or otherwise.

 

Would you want your son to become a Marine? (Bonus points if you have a kid, as I do.)

 

Would you be OK with having your child forcibly taken from you to act as a battery cell to power a galactic flashlight, knowing her last days would be in terrible isolation at best, and her final moments abject terror and suffering?

 

Is the continued existence of the Imperium really the best alternative?

[AgentOrange]

I think you guys could also go one (well many) steps further in this thought experiment.

 

'Well it's better than the alternative'

 

Then ask yourself, is it? Would you want to live on Terra? Would you want to live in a setting where your best hope on a major world would be to live a completely uneventful life, and die without being noticed by anyone powerful, Imperial or otherwise.

 

Would you want your son to become a Marine? (Bonus points if you have a kid, as I do.)

 

Would you be OK with having your child forcibly taken from you to act as a battery cell to power a galactic flashlight, knowing her last days would be in terrible isolation at best, and her final moments abject terror and suffering?

 

Is the continued existence of the Imperium really the best alternative?

 

And that's why I say it's really not any brighter or more hopeful a setting than it was before.  Even if the Imperium wins more, the Imperium is STILL AWFUL.

[Brother Sefiel]

Hi

 

Even if the Imperium wins more, the Imperium is STILL AWFUL.

Now that I do not disagree with.

Some people might get to live a simple, pastoral life for some time - but the chance of being recruited to fight demented wars or getting attack by horrific monsters is always there.
 

Then ask yourself, is it? Would you want to live on Terra? Would you want to live in a setting where your best hope on a major world would be to live a completely uneventful life, and die without being noticed by anyone powerful, Imperial or otherwise.

Would you want your son to become a Marine? (Bonus points if you have a kid, as I do.)

Would you be OK with having your child forcibly taken from you to act as a battery cell to power a galactic flashlight, knowing her last days would be in terrible isolation at best, and her final moments abject terror and suffering?

Is the continued existence of the Imperium really the best alternative?

An uneventful life is generally a good life. "Interesting times" is a Chinese curse for a reason.

The Imperium is a dreadful place. Is it the most "realistic" alternative? Seems more likely than "World of Noblebright" at this point. But is not the struggle for sanity against the awful truths of the universe a worthwhile goal, even if it is almost-certainly doomed to failure?

[Scribe]

Well I imagine Imperial leaning fans would say yes.

 

EDIT: And AgentOrange, thats the thing. Thats what needs to be 100% front and center. I dont care if Rob and Gang united the 500 worlds, do not even waste the ink to print it.

 

Instead, document the forcible detention of those who resisted that integration into the reformed 500 worlds. Tell us about how Rob despises everything that the Imperium has become, including his own Chapter.

 

Stay true to what we have been, since at LEAST 1999.

[AgentOrange]

Hi

 

Even if the Imperium wins more, the Imperium is STILL AWFUL.

Now that I do not disagree with.

 

Some people might get to live a simple, pastoral life for some time - but the chance of being recruited to fight demented wars or getting attack by horrific monsters is always there.

 

And while those people are living their simple, pastoral lives, billions of others are being fed to the machine that allows them to continue living those simple, pastoral lives.  There were Germans who weren't Nazis that didn't actively participate in the Holocaust and lived uneventful lives.  That doesn't make Nazi Germany any less awful.  

[Sete]

Oh look real world politics.

That's a nice discussion path you have taken.

[Scribe]

Meh, its relevant, and the Mod's arent looking yet. :p

[Sete]

The new story/setting so far is crap.

Shoehorning Chad marines and a super Cawl was terrible and unecessary.

Guilliman would have been enough to try to rally the Imperium on this desesperate hour, the setting worse than ever before.

 

Pulling a legion worth of Chad marines out of someone's ass is the single dumbest move anyone could have taken.

 

Next year we will have Chad grey Knights with MK9 armour, super super space marines.

 

The issue here is not if it's noble right or grimdark, the setting already has a few of those variances around, it's the watered down low quality fluff they are shoving down our throats and for some hell of a reason people like it.

 

I have seen adventure time episodes of 10 minutes with more depth than this garbage.

 

Should we wait for BL writers to "improve" the setting? For the price they charge for :cuss, they sure as hell could made something proper from the beginning. Stop hiring the teletubbies writters and make something worthwhile of the IP. This slow horrific dumbness of the setting is cringeworthy to witness.

 

/Rant over.

[Scribe]

I'm just hopeful that Cawl becomes a villain, in short order.

[Walter Payton]

 

 "Interesting times" is a Chinese curse for a reason.

 

No it isn't.