7+ Save on Titan Void Shields

[Jolemai]

Whenever a Reaver or Warhound Titan (Imperium or Chaos) reach their last 1-9 wounds, their Titan Void Shields require a 7+ to work. Is this a typo or am I missing some way of making this happen?

Here's the Titan Void Shield rule:

Edited June 27, 2017 by Jolemai

[Halandaar]

It's legit, and Poxwalkers have the same 7+ save, so it only works with a buff to it (i.e. cover).

 

I think it's basically so the Cover rules only needs to say "+1 to saving throws" rather than "+1 to saving throws, or if you have no armour save then you get a 6+ armour save instead"

[Aziras]

Considering how hard it is to get the titan in cover it is just a way to write the rule to say that it cannot be used when it is severely damaged, rather than phrasing it out in words. A 7+ fits the damage table better and is less ambiguous than a "N/A".

[Jolemai]

It's legit, and Poxwalkers have the same 7+ save, so it only works with a buff to it (i.e. cover).

 

I think it's basically so the Cover rules only needs to say "+1 to saving throws" rather than "+1 to saving throws, or if you have no armour save then you get a 6+ armour save instead"

 

According to the cover rules, Invulnerable saves cannot be modified. In the entry above it says like ++ saves, the TVS is unaffected by AP modifiers, so surely that implies the save can't be improved?

 

Considering how hard it is to get the titan in cover it is just a way to write the rule to say that it cannot be used when it is severely damaged, rather than phrasing it out in words. A 7+ fits the damage table better and is less ambiguous than a "N/A".

 

They do make a point about Titans need to be 50% obscured in cover to get a save, but wouldn't this only affect their armour save? Whilst your theory does make sense, I doubt they added it because it looks pretty.

[Atia]

The FAQ said that your save can be modified by cover, as is the case with the Poxwalkers - for your titan, you probably need some big scenery to get that tbh ^^

[Jolemai]

A Poxwalker has a regular armour save and these can be modified as per the rules. As I'm not refering to a regular armour save (which is 3+ for a Titan), the example is not applicable.

[Charlo]

An AP modifier isn't the same as a cover modifier though, they both modify the armoursave, sure - but they are different things.

 

I'd assume the 7+ is there for a reason.

 

Is the stage of degradation before it a 6+, or 5+? and what the the other steps before it?

[Aeternus]

Since it is neither Armour nor Invuln (and therefore can't benefit from cover), I would assume that it is either to prevent a 'no void save' having to be worded as Aziras suggests, or somewhere somehow there is something that interacts with units that states '+1 to all saves/any saving throws' type thing, which would work on the void shields as well.

[OutlawSixActual]

Since it is neither Armour nor Invuln (and therefore can't benefit from cover), I would assume that it is either to prevent a 'no void save' having to be worded as Aziras suggests, or somewhere somehow there is something that interacts with units that states '+1 to all saves/any saving throws' type thing, which would work on the void shields as well.

 

Cover benefits saving throws, not just "armour throws," which isn't a real term in the rules.  Cover specifically does not benefit invulnerable saves.

 

Void Shield rules are specifically a "unique kind of saving throw" taken instead of normal or invulnerable saves - therefore, it is not excluded from cover bonuses, and is only unaffected by AP.  So, yes, you can get a +1 to your void shield save in cover... it's just hard to get into cover with such a massive model :)

[Jacinda]

-- i messed something up, ignore this one ---

Edited July 1, 2017 by Jacinda

[Jacinda]

On the stat line for any unit where it says Sv, that's your saving throw.  Cover affects that. Page 181 talks about saving throws and invulnerable saves.  It never mentions "armour throws."  As far as I am aware, they don't exists.

 

I do not have the current titan rules, but I seem to remember that void shields "are not invulnerable" in the fact that they could be taken down but otherwise they did give the unit an invulnerability save.

 

Not that it matters since cover "add 1 to its models’ saving throws against shooting attacks."  Right next to that sidebar it clearly states what a saving throw is.  "4. Saving Throw:  The player commanding the target unit then makes a saving throw by rolling a dice [...] If the result is equal to, or greater than, the Save characteristic of the model the wound was allocated to, then the damage is prevented and the attack sequence ends."

 

That is a saving throw.  Cover modifies that.  It does not affect any other roll.

[Jolemai]

Jacinda, see the spoiler above for the current Titan Void shield rules. The only thing you're missing is that the number degrades as the Titan takes wounds - so an unharmed Reaver (60 wounds) has a 3+ save, when it has between 1 and 9 remaining this number is 7+.

 

FWIW its regular armour save remains 3+ throughout.

[TheWolfLord]

Just to go back to an earlier point as we seem to now agree that a Void Shield can be modified by cover.

 

Invulnerable saves can be improved but cover has been confirmed to not work on invuln saves.

 

Harald Deathwolf has a 3+ save and a 3+ invulnerable save from a Storm Shield, he has a rule that improves his save by 1 against all shooting attacks.

 

Simon Grant himself has confirmed that RAW Haralds Invuln save is improved to a 2+ against all shooting attacks although he may change that in the future.

 

Bottom line is any rule that improves a saving throw will also improve an Invuln save unless specifically excluded, those rules are likely to be very rare though.

Edited July 2, 2017 by TheWolfLord

[OutlawSixActual]

On the stat line for any unit where it says Sv, that's your saving throw. Cover affects that. Page 181 talks about saving throws and invulnerable saves. It never mentions "armour throws." As far as I am aware, they don't exists.

 

I do not have the current titan rules, but I seem to remember that void shields "are not invulnerable" in the fact that they could be taken down but otherwise they did give the unit an invulnerability save.

 

Not that it matters since cover "add 1 to its models’ saving throws against shooting attacks." Right next to that sidebar it clearly states what a saving throw is. "4. Saving Throw: The player commanding the target unit then makes a saving throw by rolling a dice [...] If the result is equal to, or greater than, the Save characteristic of the model the wound was allocated to, then the damage is prevented and the attack sequence ends."

 

That is a saving throw. Cover modifies that. It does not affect any other roll.

The void shield rules (see the OP for verbatim rules) state the the void shield give a unique saving throw distinct from normal or invilnerable throws. Cover rules state that they add +1 to saving throws, then specifically exempts invulnerables. The void shield rules state that the void shirld saving throw, like an invuln, ignores AP, but unlike invuln, can prevent mortal wounds.

 

The void shoeld rule is therefore not an invulnerable save, not exempted from cover throws (which applies to all saving throws except invuln), and gain +1 in cover.

 

Easy!

[Jacinda]

You seem to be taking a specific rule and assuming a generic role for it.  Terrain and cover is a side bar relating directly to the saving throws rule as a specific time of save.

 

Anyway, since void shields are "represented by a unique kind of saving throw" that is used "instead of their normal save" it obviously is not the same as the rule in the basic rule book and uses its own rule instead.

[OutlawSixActual]

The normal, invulnerable, and void shield are three different types of saving throws.

 

The cover and terrain rule applies to saving throws, and specifically exempts invulnerable saves.

 

Cover bonuses apply to every kind of saving throw unless specifically exempted - as is the case with invuln saves. Note that the cover rule doesnt say it applies to "normal," armor, or save characteristic throws - it says it applies to savings throws, except for invulnerable saves. The void rules state that the void shields are a type of saving throw that is not a normal or an invulnerable save.

 

It sounds like you may be creating a distinction in the rules that doesn't exist.

[TheWolfLord]

The normal, invulnerable, and void shield are three different types of saving throws.

The cover and terrain rule applies to saving throws, and specifically exempts invulnerable saves.

Cover bonuses apply to every kind of saving throw unless specifically exempted - as is the case with invuln saves. Note that the cover rule doesnt say it applies to "normal," armor, or save characteristic throws - it says it applies to savings throws, except for invulnerable saves. The void rules state that the void shields are a type of saving throw that is not a normal or an invulnerable save.

It sounds like you may be creating a distinction in the rules that doesn't exist.

Very well put and completely correct

[Jacinda]

It sounds like you may be creating a distinction in the rules that doesn't exist.

 

"instead"

 

My final word.

I think we have both made our points and it's not a hill worth dying on.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Jacinda

[OutlawSixActual]

We can amicably agree to disagree. My final word on the subject would be that yes, you could choose to drive a BMW "instead" of an Audi, but either way you're still driving a car. If the rules are for cars, they apply equally to both.