Unit of the Week: Terminators

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I think usage has to be a part of your personal calculations, though.  One of the benefits of the Cyclone is its longer range, so it is at its most useful when the Terminators begin the game deployed on the tabletop.  If you're deep striking or placing them in a transport, the assault cannon may be the better option because you don't need to pay the extra points for the Cyclone's longer range.

[Gen.Steiner]

Iron Father - yes, that's very true. I personally tend to use Terminators as fire support units (with the exceptions of my Black Templar Assault Terminators), so I like the extra range.

On the other hand I won't be spamming Cyclones in my Deathwing army:

1x A/C, 1x Cyclone, 1x PC, 1x HF.

More for variety's sake than effectiveness - if I wanted a seriously nasty army I would stick as many Cyclones in as I could and support them with a quad autocannon Dread or two, because Terminators should:

Concentrate their fire,
Stay out of combat;
Have faith in the God-Emperor!

[SgtOrion]

Cyclones feel overpriced to me. You pay the same price as a Typhoon for an inferior version. Only 36" range and the frag is only 2d3 number of shots. Not to mention that you still want to fight at 12-24" to take advantage of the storm bolters in the squad. The volume of fire from an assault cannon should help make up for the accuracy penalty more too. (When moving/ deepstriking)

[Kua]

The advantage of Cyclones is range and anti-tank qualities. (Don’t tell about versatility, it would not be true.) And keeping the bolter, yes.

The Assault Cannon has no rang, is cheaper and anti-inf.

 

BUT: If you have to rely on the range, the rest of your 300 pts squad is standing uselessly somewhere in the nowhere doing the job of two devastators.

A-T vs. A-I would be choice, wasn’t there a price.

On a dreadnought, on the other hand, I’d take the TLLC to compensate for the A-T qualities missing on the termies, because LC are so much better AT than ML and pair well with the dread’s TLAC other arm (or even ML) – there you actually can use the range.

[Ebon Hand]

7th edition thinking is happening here! The range disparity between storm bolters and cyclone missile launchers doesn't matter because in 8th you can split fire. Combine that with teleportation and that means that your Terminators should more often than not be in range to use both their storm bolters and missile launcher with the missile being able to split fire onto a vehicle with it's long reach.

 

To me it's simply a question of whether you need more potent AV or more potent AI, with the heavy flamer being your close range/defensive option.

 

Interestingly, I tend to view even regular Terminators as a close combat strike unit more than a dedicated shooting unit. With a Terminator Chaplain supporting them, they wreck in close combat with power fists on the charge.

[Gen.Steiner]

Personally I was thinking a unit of Deathwing Knights supported by HF armed tactical Terminators, the Ancient, the Chaplain, the Captain, and the Champion as a close combat strike group.

With regards to the Cyclone, I really do think that 50points is a good price even for 2d3 shots or 2 S8 shots because you can choose what you want to shoot when. Split fire is, as has been mentioned above, wonderful.

[Alcyon]

7th edition thinking is happening here! The range disparity between storm bolters and cyclone missile launchers doesn't matter because in 8th you can split fire. Combine that with teleportation and that means that your Terminators should more often than not be in range to use both their storm bolters and missile launcher with the missile being able to split fire onto a vehicle with it's long reach.

 

To me it's simply a question of whether you need more potent AV or more potent AI, with the heavy flamer being your close range/defensive option.

 

Interestingly, I tend to view even regular Terminators as a close combat strike unit more than a dedicated shooting unit. With a Terminator Chaplain supporting them, they wreck in close combat with power fists on the charge.

 

Good catch, I often find myself still thinking in 7th ed terms!

 

I think Terminators are actually one of the most viable "assault out of deep strike" units, because they likely suffer a lot less than say, Vanguards would if they fail their charge. If I have my math right, a 9" charge is only about 28% likely without a Librarian, and even casting Veil of Time to re-roll only raises your changes to 51%. So it's pretty fair odds your Terminators won't be the ones charging, and if so they can still shoot a bunch (16 bolter shots plus the heavy weapon) and then weather Overwatch and a round of enemy shooting thanks to 2+/5+. It is still a bit awkward that their bolters are good vs. troops whereas PFs are good vs. larger units, especially when you only have a 12" bolter range for full effectiveness.

 

And if you do fail the charge, the Librarian is still a huge buff with Veil of Time - they can still go first with their Power Fists. Then of course you want a Captain to raise the chance of hitting with the PFs from 50% to 58%, or even better, a Chapter Master giving you a 75% chance to hit. Terminators seem like the new deathstar in some ways.

[Kua]

I had considered splitting fire in the argumentation. Not guilty of 7th Ed thinking. ;)

The point is:

If you have a target for the bolters, you have one for the assault cannon.

If you haven’t, you have a problem anyway and are wasting most of your expensive unit.

That’s why the range thing.

Ofc. they could shoot the Cyclone on some vehicle further away, but they shouldn’t need to.

[Gen.Steiner]

But if you have a target for the Storm Bolters you have the option to fire your frag rockets instead; 2d3 S4 - extra bolter shots really.

Or you can zap a unit with your SB's and whack a vehicle or monstrous creature further away.

ALSO it means you're out of range of things like Tau pulse rifles and can still hit back.

[Ebon Hand]

The same could be said the opposite way though... If the storm bolters aren't in range of anything neither is the assault cannon, where at least the cyclone could still possibly find a target further away.

 

That is likely why the cyclone costs more. I'm split 50/50 on assault cannon vs cyclone, I will probably have 2 squads with one each.

 

I must admit though, I haven't given the flamer much consideration. As a Black Templar, my lists tend to have ample anti light infantry anyway.

[Kua]

A unit should work to its strengths, not be equipped to at least fire two missiles when everything else gets wrong.

 

Also, frag missiles are just bad and no replacement for anything worth consideration.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

They're not a replacement for anything. They supplement the stormbolter.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Cyclones feel overpriced to me. You pay the same price as a Typhoon for an inferior version. Only 36" range and the frag is only 2d3 number of shots. Not to mention that you still want to fight at 12-24" to take advantage of the storm bolters in the squad. The volume of fire from an assault cannon should help make up for the accuracy penalty more too. (When moving/ deepstriking)

 

A lot of the best weapons are vehicle exclusive. But can you imagine Terminators lugging around Punisher Gatling Cannons and Typhoon Missile Launcher racks? That would be sick.

[Kua]

They're not a replacement for anything. They supplement the stormbolter.

 

Then I assume you disagree with the people pointing at frag missiles when speaking about assault cannons supporting the storm bolters versus infantry.

[Race Bannon]

Or maybe as an alternative? The cyclone launcher uses both ends of the attack spectrum (so to speak): anti-tank or anti-infantry, relative to the assault cannon? The AsC is literally in the middle, it can really hurt infantry and annoy tank. So, for the high cost, the Cyclone allows one to maximize their ability to do damage. Split fire in this addition gives the user more flexibility of choice, which is good!

 

Again, my personal favorite is the Assault Cannon thanks to the movie Predator :lol:, and in an average list it is likely the better weapon overall. But in tailored lists, the Cyclone should not be discarded simply because it is expensive. And in games using PL, the entire discussion is almost moot.

[Gen.Steiner]

Wot Race sed.

I think that if you're planning to get up close and personal, A/Cs and HFs are a good choice. For anything else, there's the Cyclone - and four or five of them in a list will make short work of a tank a turn, I should think (8-10 S8 rockets)!

[CCE1981]

Mm. There's definitely synergy with the Assault Cannon (and I use them, don't get me wrong), but I think that the average of 7 S4 frag shots generated by the Cyclone with a longer range edges it out for me. Especially as there is the potential for 12(!) hits.

 

Assuming my memory is correct.

 

Because if it's not I will look quite the fool. :P

2D3 not 2D6 so average of 4. Also Cyclone is only range 36.

 

I made that mistake for a while until do some serious in depth look at outfitting some termies.

[Gen.Steiner]

Ah, I look quite the fool then! :D

[Kua]

So, for the high cost, the Cyclone allows one to maximize their ability to do damage.

 

For the high costs it allows you to hurt a tank. Less than with LasCans, but at least somewhat. That’s all. Its anti-infantry capability is a mythos, should be forgotten and never mentioned again! ;)

[Race Bannon]

Except this time :lol: no myth, just not preferred :P

[SgtOrion]

 

A lot of the best weapons are vehicle exclusive. But can you imagine Terminators lugging around Punisher Gatling Cannons and Typhoon Missile Launcher racks? That would be sick.

 

 

Even just some of the options available to devastators would be fun. Multimeltas and Grav cannons come to mind.

 

Will there be Primaris Terminators in the future?

[Ebon Hand]

Probably, and they will cost billions of dollars and points! Haha, just kidding, sorta.

[Firepower]

Those would be some really, really big Marines.

[Gen.Steiner]

Primaris 'Terminators' wear Gravis armour and have rocket packs and heavy flamers from what I understand.

[Race Bannon]

Citation for that yo.