Greyhunter versus WG loadouts

[Hellrender]

But thats the thing, thats what i like about having a 10 man grey hunter squad with plasma load out. It can do a variaty of things far cheaper than the same flexibility with wolf guard. When you start adding special weapons other than stormbolters to Wolf Guard, they get significantly more expensive than grey hunters.

 

That said, i have been trying to make army lists, and i struggle a lot to make a 2k list with grey hunters while keeping my favorite units like Bjorn, Ven. Dread, Relic Contemptor and leviathan (yes i love dreadnoughts). So i think i will need a storm bolter wolf guard unit regardless, just to fill the gap in taking the detachment with Elites as base.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Another thing to look at though is battlefield role. If you are looking for that +3 command points 3 troops are required. I would personally prefer to take the required units for the relatively similar (ork boy comparisons excluded where the wolf guard are clearly better, no surprise there) damage output then a unit that can crush troops but takes up an elites slot not filling a requirement. Plus while overcharge is risky, if you need to strip some wounds off a T8 unit (Lehman russes for example) you can do that with plasma but not nearly as efficiently with storm bolters. So I see it as the wolf guard in this scenario are superior versus light infantry where the greys are more consistent across a variety of targets

[Garreck]

Caldersson's math is compelling. Did not know wolfguard with storm bolters performed that much better for cheaper. In essence I'm better off with wolf guard and storm bolters in my razorbacks even for simple objective camping. I'll have better damage output against typical targets for equivalent cost. Very interesting.

[Filius]

I must also say … this thread and especially Caldersons Math and the hard but fair exchange of arguments with Hellrender is very enlightening. It really works out the edge cases. And I wouldn't have come up with the Idea of using Wolf Guards instead of Grey Hunters. So thanks to everyone! I personally think, I'll stick with the Grey Hunters, becaus I'll prefer fluffy and narrative play anyways aaand I'd rather go for the Battalion or Brigade Detachments, in order to get more CP, or to quote from Fup one of my favourit Books …

 

"Granddaddy favored games with hole cards, where your strength was in your secrets and you flew into the eye of chaos riding your ghost."

 

[Jarl of Wulfen]

Grey hunter aren't bad per se though.

 

A full 10 man squad can have 2 plasma guns, a plasma pistol, and a combi plas, hunkered down somewhere. And they would be cheaper right? (dont have my index nearby).

 

It's just that wolf guard offer more flexibility, but i feel they suffer a bit from what sternguard did in 7th. They are still 1 wound only. So you pay more for your meat shields in the unit (those that die first, and often either have equipment to increase survivability, or nothing at all).

From a post by Simon Grant in the Space Wolves facebook group, you only get 2 specials and a combi is if you have 11 models in the squad.

 

The question asked was "Can a unit of Bloodclaws have 2 special weapons if it has 13 BCs,1 Pack leader and 1 WG leader? (Total of 15 models).

 

The response was "No, as the WG Pack Leader is an optional extra that is effectively separate to the unit's wargear options. Just ignore the Wolf Guard when it comes to establishing ​what wargear the Blood Claws in the unit can use. Yep. And for all other units that can include a Wolf Guard Pack Leader."

[hammer grimblood]

 

Grey hunter aren't bad per se though.

 

A full 10 man squad can have 2 plasma guns, a plasma pistol, and a combi plas, hunkered down somewhere. And they would be cheaper right? (dont have my index nearby).

 

It's just that wolf guard offer more flexibility, but i feel they suffer a bit from what sternguard did in 7th. They are still 1 wound only. So you pay more for your meat shields in the unit (those that die first, and often either have equipment to increase survivability, or nothing at all).

From a post by Simon Grant in the Space Wolves facebook group, you only get 2 specials and a combi is if you have 11 models in the squad.

 

The question asked was "Can a unit of Bloodclaws have 2 special weapons if it has 13 BCs,1 Pack leader and 1 WG leader? (Total of 15 models).

 

The response was "No, as the WG Pack Leader is an optional extra that is effectively separate to the unit's wargear options. Just ignore the Wolf Guard when it comes to establishing ​what wargear the Blood Claws in the unit can use. Yep. And for all other units that can include a Wolf Guard Pack Leader."

Until GW issues an FAQ/corraction to their index I will be ignoring that interpretation. The entry specifically says "models" not "Grey Hunters".

[Valerian]

Agreed.  Simon might have intended that to be the way it works, but that isn't how it is actually written, so the rules designer is wrong in this case.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Plus that would undo years of established packs for a good majority of the SW community.

[Valerian]

Simon did just say that he'd make sure it gets clarified, so expect a change in upcoming codex, or perhaps an earlier errata.

[Hellrender]

That certainly puts a nail in my grey hunter idea. What was so good about the current raw version is the increase in firepower (and melee power) while still fitting in a rhino and keep 2 specials. To have to choose between 2 specials and a wolf guard when you want to use a drop pod or rhino is not even remotely funny when you then compare the wolf guard to this unit.

 

On the other hand, the razorback unit is still save.

 

So for me there are only 2 reasons to take grey hunters:

 

1) army build: you need a certain detachment or narrative sense.

2) you need a small versatile squad in razorback.

 

If you do not need either the wolf guard is better in 10 man transports And better in anti infantry..

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

It has literally been 10 guys 2 weapons and a combi with option for power weapon for years! Why change it now!?

[Valerian]

That certainly puts a nail in my grey hunter idea. What was so good about the current raw version is the increase in firepower (and melee power) while still fitting in a rhino and keep 2 specials. To have to choose between 2 specials and a wolf guard when you want to use a drop pod or rhino is not even remotely funny when you then compare the wolf guard to this unit.

On the other hand, the razorback unit is still save.

So for me there are only 2 reasons to take grey hunters:

1) army build: you need a certain detachment or narrative sense.

2) you need a small versatile squad in razorback.

If you do not need either the wolf guard is better in 10 man transports And better in anti infantry..

I've told Simon as much.

[Garreck]

Force organization and command points are legit considerations in favor of grey hunters. I'll certainly still use them, but I'm genuinely surprised at how the math stacks up.

 

And yeah, odd that they would change the way grey hunters have worked since ever. Is what it is I guess.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

This has been a really good topic and has provided me with a lot of good information. I am currently looking at including a 10 strong pack of Wolf Guard with jump packs, storm bolters, three with shields, a hammer on the leader, and a couple of frost swords. I'm thinking one or two plasma pistols might be pretty good as well to provide them with some capability to put wounds on MCs and flyers.

[Deadnaughty]

I donno about Jump Pack WG, they're 5 points more then Skyclaws for an extra attack.

I you want speed I prefer bikes, 3 points more then normal bikes but you get an attack and a wound.

 

For deepstrike plasma I actually look outside the army at Tempestus Scion Command Squads. Sure they won't survive but their are just so much cheaper.

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

 

Grey hunter aren't bad per se though.

A full 10 man squad can have 2 plasma guns, a plasma pistol, and a combi plas, hunkered down somewhere. And they would be cheaper right? (dont have my index nearby).

It's just that wolf guard offer more flexibility, but i feel they suffer a bit from what sternguard did in 7th. They are still 1 wound only. So you pay more for your meat shields in the unit (those that die first, and often either have equipment to increase survivability, or nothing at all).

From a post by Simon Grant in the Space Wolves facebook group, you only get 2 specials and a combi is if you have 11 models in the squad.

The question asked was "Can a unit of Bloodclaws have 2 special weapons if it has 13 BCs,1 Pack leader and 1 WG leader? (Total of 15 models).

The response was "No, as the WG Pack Leader is an optional extra that is effectively separate to the unit's wargear options. Just ignore the Wolf Guard when it comes to establishing ​what wargear the Blood Claws in the unit can use. Yep. And for all other units that can include a Wolf Guard Pack Leader."

Until GW issues an FAQ/corraction to their index I will be ignoring that interpretation. The entry specifically says "models" not "Grey Hunters".

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335906-clarification-on-wolf-guard-and-special-weapons-in-a-unit/

 

Here is more info about this for anyone tracking this.