BA: A Gathering of Suggestions

[Aothaine]

Hey everyone,

 

I have seen enough people post about how they wish they could use Facebook to contact GW about the changes we all desire for Blood Angels. I will gladly put forth my skills and create a list to send to GW about how to fix Blood Angels and what Blood Angels players would like changed.

 

It will be important to keep this post somewhat clear and concise. This is not the thread to debate which units should be taken over which. 

 

If you know of a change that you, and possibly others, would like to see for the Blood Angels please use the template below to post that request. I will review it and if the supporting data is there I will add it to the pdf that I will send to GW in the hopes that they heed our suggestions. I will also make this pdf available to the public so everyone here can review it and make suggestions on how to improve it's professional look so we can grab the attention of the developers.

 

 

Submission Template

 

Unit: 

Description of Desired Change:

Argument Supporting Change:

Link to Forum Discussion Thread (include page number of where discussion starts):

 

==================================

 

 

If you can think of anything else you would like to see on the template let me know and I will add it. I will update this post with submission topics once a week that have the template filled out and are supported by discussions on forums/youtube videos/podcasts as they come up.

 

 

 

Submission Document Link

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13jrJXV149LI9GgTQ6grzvfBuXrlppVoNErHv1fuCmTU/edit?usp=sharing

Edited July 6, 2017 by Aothaine

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Well I don't have FB haha so... here's what I'd say, though admittedly it's mostly opinion and old school BA bias forming my comments, I can't say if anyone agrees but here goes:

 

Unit: Angelus Boltgun

Description of Desired Change: point adjustment... the Plasma Pistol is 3 points cheaper and can still fire within an inch.

Argument Supporting Change: Volume is great but it's hard to reason why you'd ever take the Angelus Boltgun over the PP.

 

Unit: Blood Talons

Description of Desired Change: add re-roll failed Hit rolls when armed with 2 - or major point decrease.

Argument Supporting Change: The average damage of this weapon is 3.5... the Furious Fists are Damage:3, can re-roll failed Hits and are Significantly cheaper!

 

Unit: ANY close-combat Dreadnought

Description of Desired Change: please re-evaluate the point cost for these units based on potential output as compared to their "shooty" cousins.

Argument Supporting Change: A shooty dreadnought can contribute all game while standing in cover, without a transport, or a risky trek across the table. A close-combat Dreadnought needs to either add (massive) cost (Stormraven or FW drop-pod) or suffer rounds of uncontested shooting before a possible contribution, and given the new movement rules who's going to be standing around waiting to be assaulted by this guy? A shooty dreadnought can still fight effectively in close-combat.

 

Unit: Furioso Dreadnought

Description of Desired Change: point decrease

Argument Supporting Change: 1) Furioso versus the Ironclad. Both were once AV13, and now the IronClad is T8, while the Furioso is T7. Take the IronClad with Dread Chainfist and DCCW and he hits with better AP modifier and higher Damage, also re-rolling everything but 2's. He costs less than the Furioso. The Furioso can move 2 additional inches though, ok.
2) Furioso versus the Contemptor. The Contemptor can move 3 additional inches, has 10 wounds and a 5++ Invulnerable save. He hits and shoots better than the Furioso until he's lost 5 wounds - at which point he hits and shoots just as well as the Furioso. Once he's down to 2 wounds he still fighting while the Furioso is long dead. He also has nasty 24" range weapons he can fire en route to assault or not assault at all and still be very useful. He costs less than the Furioso. The Contemptor doesn't come with a re-roll, ok - but he is a Space Marine, where aura bubble re-rolls are incredibly easy to come by (mostly required), he also hits on 2+ right out of the box whereas the Furioso is a 3+.

3) Venerable dreadnought is still better/cheaper...

4) see also: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334254-dread-comparison/

 

Unit: Character aura

Description of Desired Change: Make this less dependent on unique 'named' characters (particularly the Matt Ward 5th edition characters).

Argument Supporting Change: Of course it makes sense to seek advice from heavy tournament types for rules tightening but follow the Lore loving community when it comes to choosing character and theme.

 

Unit: Blood Angel Assault squad Sergeant

Description of Desired Change: can take combi-weapons and/or dual-wield pistols

Argument Supporting Change: Every BA player has piles of these guys after Angel's Blade

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[Morticon]

Unit:  DEATH COMPANY

Description of Desired Change:  Point Reduction, or representative rules

Argument Supporting Change:  

 

The DC are 2 points more than veteran assault units.  Their benefits are two-fold.

1: 6+ ignore wound. 

2: +1 attack on the charge.

1: The 6+ ignore wound, while a cute little buff is, more often than not, useless.  You have a 17% chance of surviving the failure of a saving throw from small-arms fire, but the second you're hit with multiwound weapons, your odds are dire. While comparing units to 7th is never a great idea, the chance of being killed by a single autocannon hit for example has gone from 18.5% to around 30%.  The DC have been scaled up in terms of price cost from their base, yet their survivability is less than before.

2: The +1 attack is a solid buff. Situational, but decent.  While they get a +1 attack on the charge, their value seems to have been calculated (and even promoted in official articles) by virtue of them being able to be made stronger by other characters. So, they're a subpar unit that can be made excellent with the inclusion of 400+ points of other characters?? This limits playstyle extensively. It pigeonholes players.  

They are also Ld7, as opposed to the Veterans' 8.  

While the +2 points over vanguard may be justified costing in terms of their additional rules, these additional rules dont really warrant the unit's inclusion over the more resilient vanguard (who can take shields).  


Suggested Changes:  +1 Wound (ala Angels of Death Codex - 2nd Ed) OR  5+ ignore wound - ala DeathGuard OR -2points

[Morticon]

Unit: Inferno Pistol

 

Description of Desired Change: Massive point adjustment. 7-10 max.

 

Argument Supporting Change: The utility of the 7point plasmapistol at 12" range far outstrips the 20point inferno.  

While the potential damage output is big, the distance required and opportunity for use is massively reduced.  There is rarely an opportunity to use it in overwatch, and melta rule will only see play within 3".  On the drop (pods or packs) you're out of range, too. 

Even at 10 points, I would still not auto-include inferno like I would plasma pistols. At 20, there's just no reason to not take 3 plasma pistols instead. 

[Silverson]

Unit: Angelus bolt gun

 

Description of Desired Change: Massive point adjustment. 2-4 max.

 

Argument Supporting Change: The utility of the 7 point plasma pistol with much higher strength and ap makes the default Angelus almost useless.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Silverson

[Morticon]

Unit:  Commander Dante

 

Description of Desired Change:  Point reduction OR additional "chapter Master" rule"

Argument Supporting Change:  Next to Calgar and Draigo, Dante is the highest priced. However, he doesn't have a non-wargear secondary ability like every other chapter master. 

Azrael for example gives +1CP as well as 4++ to all in 6". 
Calgar gives +2CP and halves damage taken. 

In the fluff,Dante is not only the oldest living space marine - hes a master tactician that countless Imperial forces have relied on to defend their systems time and time again. 

If cost is maintained, suggested rule would be akin to Calgar's CP buff, or otherwise, something simple like the Primaris Lieutenants buff of rerolling 1s to wound - to represent the tactical precision of Dante. Another alternative would be his own Stratagem.  

Otherwise, cost should come down by between 15-25 points. 

[Morticon]

Unit: Sanguinary Guard

 

Description of Desired Change: Point adjustment Or change to save (Suggested 1+ artificer save. ie: rolls of 1 still fail, but modifiers start from 1, instead of 2. eg: a heavy bolter will force a save of 2+, while a plasma gun will force a save of 4+) 

 

Argument Supporting Change: Armour modifiers make a usually strong 2+ save near useless. Added the fact that high armour mods are coupled with multiple wounds, SG die too quickly to warrant their 44points a piece.  There is no net change to small arms fire, as 1s still fail.  The difference is that high volume shots with a simple -1 are not as deadly. 

Alternatively, a point reduction similar to last edition is needed - if not in the core model, then the angelus boltgun and in overpriced glaives. 
For 5 SG with glaives, you can get 10 VAS with 5 swords and 4 shields - there's very little reason to take them. 

Suggested pointing at current rules - around 33 points total.  

[tychobi]

Unit:  Razorback

 

Description:  -1 Toughness  6 and  -5 points

 

Argument:  Seems really good for the points,  pushes Predators out of contention for mech lists while providing transport capacity.  A points increase could work but I like the Razorback as having a drawback vs a Rino or Pred for its upped firepower.  A point decrease might be in order, but I believe they would be viable at a similar price point.  

 

Unit: Furioso Dreds

 

Description: +1 T to 8 and +10 points  OR  +1 to hit (both bs and ws) and 6+ ignore wounds or +1 to ignore wounds roll if you already have it for +10 points (just the venerable upgrade on the cheap) 

 

Argument: Survival.  All close range weapons and past fluff support a big bad Blood Angel dread having the ability to shrug off damage.  Without access to venerable dreds we are needing a boost around this area.  Also they seem over cost at present time.  +1 T at present cost might be pushing it so a modest increase could put them in a great spot to be a competitive choice.  Also why do we not get venerable dreads out of our own list?  WHY? sorry.

 

Unit: Flamers/ Heavy Flamers/ Flamestorm cannon/ all the 8" range auto hit weapons.

 

Description:  12" range with a 50%? points increase

 

Argument:  Weird interaction with charging from outside of 8".  As far as I can tell if you charge from 8.5" away your overwatch automatically misses due to range.  The unit can still successfully be charged but the flame throwers do nothing.  Also I loved deep strike bbq parties which are now gone.  I feel that the points would have to bump a little but can not see the reasoning behind the 8" range.  I would love to hear some other view points on this as it seems so out of place for the new design philosophy as I understand it.  I am probably missing something obvious here. 

 

Unit: Tycho / Tycho the lost

 

Description:  new weapon + Dead Mans Hand.  melee weapon str: user ap: -2 dam:2 +5 points

 

Argument:  As cool as it is for Tycho to be taking Morkanaughts down using Jujitsu (well he didn't kill it but stripped a few wounds before becoming a gold armor flecked smear) a weapon would be nice.  Also fluff reasons.  Hard to scare the xenos scum with your wicked back hand that is str4. . . just str4.

 

PS great post idea!

Edited July 3, 2017 by tychobi

[Aothaine]

Everything above has already been resolved by the recent FAQ or has been added to the document. The document is still in it's early stages. I'm going to be looking into adding different styling and formatting to it to make it look more professional and easy to read. As it grows I will be making a key on the second page that will link to the sections and the items in the document. If you have any suggestions on wording please let me know. I have changed some of the wording already to remove sarcasm and make it appear to be more professional. The more examples you give with your templates the better it will be. Simply stating that something is not good or costs to much will not work here. A great example is post #7 and others above this post.

 

(Adding Tychobi's items to the list shortly after posting this.)

 

Also, if I did not add something and you still think it is an important issue. Please start a discussion thread with the community and link that discussion in here.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Aothaine

[Grazcruzk]

Unit: Angelus Boltgun

 

Description of Desired Change: Weapon type- Replace "Assault 2" with "Pistol 2"

 

Argument Supporting Change: As many have stated, the point cost in comparison to a plasma pistol makes the Angelus an outright worse choice. Pistol 2 better represents the point cost and the unit itself.

[dread05]

Unit : Death Company

 

Description of desired change : make them fearless, i.e. auto pass morale tests.

 

Argument supporting change : death company are supposed to be crazy bloodlust berserkers, having visions in which they are Sanguinius himself during his fight with Horus. He didnt run away from Horus knowing full well that he would die, and the death company shouldnt run either.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Unit : Death Company

 

Description of desired change : make them fearless, i.e. auto pass morale tests.

 

Argument supporting change : death company are supposed to be crazy bloodlust berserkers, having visions in which they are Sanguinius himself during his fight with Horus. He didnt run away from Horus knowing full well that he would die, and the death company shouldnt run either.

That's a good one, I noticed also that the Death Company Dreadnought has one of the lowest Leaderships in the book.

 

And after playing, I gotta say the Hand Flamer is total crap. It's 6"(not 8") and D3 hits, people act like autohit is some new amazing rule, but it always auto hit and the template was pretty big, always more than D3 anyway. It cost more than a plasma pistol and the bolt pistol is free and still more useful.

[evildrcheese]

Unit: Cataphractii/Tartaros Pattern Terminator Armour/Contemptor dreadnought.

 

Description: Blood Angels should have access to these units.

 

Argument supporting change: Created during the First Founding, the Blood Angels are one of the oldest and proudest of all Space Marine Chapters.

 

...and yet after the Heresy they decided to throw away all of their Heresy era equipment! I know technically we have access to them through other keywords but it really breaks the immersion when you hwve to remember they don't benefitnfrom bonuses etc.

 

EDC

[Arkangilos]

Well I mean they could have lost all that gear when they lost all but 50 battle brothers :p

 

But yeah I agree :p

[Tonius]

Tartaros/cataphractii armours are for Ultramarines who lost their 1st company dreadnought tactical armours to a Tyrannid invasion, and where forced to get oldies from their armory...

Huk huk huk

[TheHarrower]

Unit: Baal Predator

 

Description of Desired Change: Change overcharge engines to allow the Baal to break from combat and still shoot or allow them to move an additional D6" everytime the vehicle moves. This would still allow for advancing as normal.

 

Argument Supporting Change: Overcharge engines as is doesn't offer much of a bonus. Rerolling advance rolls doesn't help a vehicle that has all Heavy weapons. In addition, something needs to be done to make Baal Predators a viable choice again. As is in the Index now, a Razorback is more cost effective and has more utility than a Baal Predator.

 

 

Wargear: Hand Flamer

 

Description of Desired Change: Either up the Strength to 4 or up the attacks to D6.

 

Argument Supporting Change: As is, there is no reason to take a Hand Flamer. Plasma Pistol is far more useful and is 1 point cheaper.

 

 

I'm just going to add my 2 cents to other options people have suggested:

 

Angelus Boltgun: Keep it as Assault 2. Add an "integrated bolter" rule that allows it to shoot in close combat like a pistol.

 

Sanguinary Guard: I like the 1+ save idea. I'd also be okay with giving them a 5+ invulnerable save.

 

Death Company: I would be okay with BOTH +1 wound and 5+ ignore wound. In the half dozen or so games I've played, I think that came into play once or twice. Ideally, I'd like to see some kind of cool rule for these guys. The suggested fixes are fine, but this is one of our defining units. Maybe something like they get to attack again when the model is removed.

 

EDIT: Spelling and formatting changes.

Edited July 10, 2017 by TheHarrower

[Death Dealer 101]

If you can think of anything else you would like to see on the template let me know and I will add it. I will update this post with submission topics once a week that have the template filled out and are supported by discussions on forums/youtube videos/podcasts as they come up.

 

Submission Document Link

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13jrJXV149LI9GgTQ6grzvfBuXrlppVoNErHv1fuCmTU/edit?usp=sharing

 

When were you submitting this, the codex look like not being far away so probably best to get in soon. I think it would be handy to show some maths for the Angelus bolter being overcosted versus the plasma pistol. PP is better in nearly all situations besides T3 hordes.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Death Dealer 101

[Morticon]

Unit: Jump Pack units - any of them. 

 

Description of Desired Change:  "Descent of Angels - Units with Jump Packs count as being in cover the turn they arrive from Deep Strike until their next movement phase. 
 

Argument Supporting Change:  Jump pack cost and efficacy are far overshadowed by the fact that infantry are not really that good in this edition.  Marines suffer from a huge "meta" issue, and that is that their otherwise good armour save is very quickly modified.  For units like imperial guard, orks and tyranids which are a fraction (literally) of the cost, they can afford to lose a model or five en route.  Marines are not priced that way.  Every model lost counts.  Most marine lists will use transports to protect the infantry until theyre closer.  Having jumpers try get in en route just makes them a target for high volume fire, mid-Ap weapons.    This change balances all BA jump infantry - it even makes Sanguinary guard quite formidable.  Relying on a deep strike, in order to have a long shot charge is not worthwhile, and the models otherwise get blown to bits en route.  This minor army-wide rule makes jump pack infantry playable, and feeds into the BA mythos and playstyle.  Additionally, it opens up FAR more play options.  

[Charlo]

 

Unit: Jump Pack units - any of them. 

 

Description of Desired Change:  "Descent of Angels - Units with Jump Packs count as being in cover the turn they arrive from Deep Strike until their next movement phase. 

 

Argument Supporting Change:  Jump pack cost and efficacy are far overshadowed by the fact that infantry are not really that good in this edition.  Marines suffer from a huge "meta" issue, and that is that their otherwise good armour save is very quickly modified.  For units like imperial guard, orks and tyranids which are a fraction (literally) of the cost, they can afford to lose a model or five en route.  Marines are not priced that way.  Every model lost counts.  Most marine lists will use transports to protect the infantry until theyre closer.  Having jumpers try get in en route just makes them a target for high volume fire, mid-Ap weapons.    This change balances all BA jump infantry - it even makes Sanguinary guard quite formidable.  Relying on a deep strike, in order to have a long shot charge is not worthwhile, and the models otherwise get blown to bits en route.  This minor army-wide rule makes jump pack infantry playable, and feeds into the BA mythos and playstyle.  Additionally, it opens up FAR more play options.  

 

 

Super agree on this. Making all of our jumpers be 1+/2+ for a turn would be great for aggressive drops.

 

Either that or maybe a -1 to hit penalty?

[Death Dealer 101]

Like that idea far better than sang guard getting a 1+ save. I can't imagine GW giving them a permanent 1+ as theres plenty of units that could get and it would open a can of worms.

[evildrcheese]

Unit: Jump Pack units - any of them.

Description of Desired Change: "Descent of Angels - Units with Jump Packs count as being in cover the turn they arrive from Deep Strike until their next movement phase.

Argument Supporting Change: Jump pack cost and efficacy are far overshadowed by the fact that infantry are not really that good in this edition. Marines suffer from a huge "meta" issue, and that is that their otherwise good armour save is very quickly modified. For units like imperial guard, orks and tyranids which are a fraction (literally) of the cost, they can afford to lose a model or five en route. Marines are not priced that way. Every model lost counts. Most marine lists will use transports to protect the infantry until theyre closer. Having jumpers try get in en route just makes them a target for high volume fire, mid-Ap weapons. This change balances all BA jump infantry - it even makes Sanguinary guard quite formidable. Relying on a deep strike, in order to have a long shot charge is not worthwhile, and the models otherwise get blown to bits en route. This minor army-wide rule makes jump pack infantry playable, and feeds into the BA mythos and playstyle. Additionally, it opens up FAR more play options.

 

I love this. Make it so!

 

EDC

[Father Mapple]

As to the jump pack units coming in being tougher first turn on the board:

 

A -1 to hit deep striking jump packs is a more consistent rules application or theory as seen by other models like SOME flyers being harder to hit because of their special or altitude, or other infantry moving themselves causing a -1 to hit their targets.

 

But if it a rule modification of jump pack assault specifically? Don't think it would be appropriate for all deep striking units like terminators, who usually have their own rule.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Redacted.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[Arkangilos]

They don't pay for weapons when you use power levels so their high PL cost is justified.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

They don't pay for weapons when you use power levels so their high PL cost is justified.

 

DC start almost double PL and still pay for jump packs with power levels though. If the reason they are higher power level is access to jump packs... why do they essentially pay twice?

 

If the reason they are higher power level is simply because they have access to more weapon variety, well yes, in PL they don't pay for the weapons, but given that Berserkers are base S5 the difference in weapons is not so great... further I think striking twice is waay waay better than beefing up on weapons.

 

Whether you are going points or PL the numbers don't make sense...

 

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard