Primaris Marines - GW's end game?

[Lexington]

Pretty sure the actual reason to change the scale of the marines is:

1. Try to disrupt Chapterhouse-like third party marine (like PuppetWars') sellers

2. Try to increase sales to players who already have a marine army (which is close to 100% of current 40k players)

3. Appeal to the increasingly present truescale crowd

 

#1 and #3 address such phenomenally tiny customer/business segments, I have a hard time believing that GW just entirely re-worked their most iconic and best-selling product line just to deal with them.

[deathspectersgt7]

This looks more and more like just another Army added to 40k . Legacy Marine Saturation hmmm. I am at 75 chapters still 975 to do . Over all Primaris Marines rate an ok .They need to do a better job on unit org, and size cause it sucks .

[Kastor Krieg]

This looks more and more like just another Army added to 40k . Legacy Marine Saturation hmmm. I am at 75 chapters still 975 to do . Over all Primaris Marines rate an ok .They need to do a better job on unit org, and size cause it sucks .

I rather meant "types of units". They earlier on tried adding Centurions and how did that go (even though the images were cool, the sculpt was too stocky). So instead of piling models onto the fully saturated line, where they were able to only cover total outliers with non-existent (Deathwatch, Custodes) or severely outdated (kSons, Wulfen) dedicated models, they chose to branch out into a separate line withing which they have more creative breathing space - a line which is still recognizably "Space Marines", but still has space for stuff like Gravis, the flyboys, Reivers, hovertanks and such.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Kastor Krieg

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Remember that once upon a time regular power armored marines weren't much better than Primaris. You can ask the same questions about them in those days. What's the point of Tactical Marines? They suck, just take Scouts/Bikes, etc.

[chapter master 454]

To argue a point that people bring up that is based in cynicism, the concept of 'sell us models'. Now naturally it is their prime directive but that's understandable since they openly admit to being a MODEL company not a game company. The game is just an engine to drive sales and so in a sense the games overall health does reflect sales and health does NOT mean 'how well balanced it is' but the population of players however those two are mutually involved with each other. Balance retains players which in turn helps keep the population high. An interesting thing to note is that despite average points limit going up where I play (to the GW mentioned 2k) the army numbers are not exactly breaking huge numbers any greater than 1850, heck I would argue they are more sized like 1500 games were. This push to compress the game by points inflation leads an important part of game health: Smaller Army requirements.

 

 A key argument people will put forward is the main cash cows for this game are those with regular expendable resources however those people are important, no argument but trees you harvest no longer grow once done and so one must plant the next batch and this is where smaller armies is a good thing. Little Timmy who wants to join can now get a game ready army of those bigger limits far faster and still be able to compete without sinking those huge amounts of money because now, it only takes a few units for his birthday, christmas and maybe a few inbetween with hard earned pocket money to get those awesome new models.

 These young children, even if they only play here and there and possibly disappear after half a year to a year can very likely return like most of us. I started this hobby when I was barely 10, had a run of 4th into 5th edition before bowing out then returning once more on the cusp of 8th. These returning players who played when they were kids now come with those resources we talk about and thus the process repeats. Cash Whales are part of the ecosystem but we must nurture those whales of tomorrow.

 

 I will push that these models are NOT to sell to standing players. These new marines are for the newer generation, in a sense we are the old astartes...old and worn down. A service served well Brothers and Sisters. These new Primaris are not for us because they represent a new generation we must nurture and look after while they take their stand and make their own mark. After all, we all enjoy our toys and to a new young neophyte the appeal of super marines is all but resistable and so they want to play these new super marines.

 I say this as evidence says otherwise, releasing new models does not indicate they want to sell US models unless it is additions to our current armies. After all they are already trying to sell us other models by having so many options like Tau for the Mecha Fans, Orks for those who enjoy the fun and quirky ramshackle hubris, Chaos who feel that rebellious side, Eldar who enjoy an elegance and higher standard and the Imperial guard who feels kinship of the hardship of how man fights the insurmountable power of the universe.

 

 We are not the target audience for the Primaris Marines. They may or may not be replacements for our beloved astartes, time will tell however with a keen wit and sense, we can as the veterans make the call we are not being replaced. We are being bolstered both within the game and outwith as for within we are reinforced by these new warriors while outwith we find new young ones come to our fold to fight for and against the light of the Emperor.

 Whether they fight for the Emperor's vision of seek it in tatters, I welcome all. Just be prepared to be ground underneath my treads for I, like all of us here, are the Emperors Angels of Death. We are his sword and WE SHALL KNOW NO FEAR!.

 

(because it won't happen. If it does then I'll stand to the last and see you guys out and make sure I get the lights)

[Varred]

Either way, if it is Just a New Army, or rescaling of Astartes, we can not do a thing about it. As much as voting with a wallet gets US, how are u gonna do it.

 

The B&C community aloe is probably not big enough to make an impact and even we are divided on the matter wether or not the Primaris are a good thing.

 

So regardless of the end game of GW, I say just enjoy the game and the World while it lasts. Sky isnt falling anytime soon.

 

P. S. I am with this game since 4th edition, give a few break and whole 7th ed of misery that i wished not to participate in, I cant look at good ol' Adeptus Astartes wothout a smile on my face now. After getting the primaris part of Dark Imperium and co paring them to tacticals and DC. Something is Just off for me with Old models now. They are really the Squats in my eyes :p

But it was the same when i compared metal RG Marines to plastic tacticals, so here it goes.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Varred

[KBA]

That last bit, Varred, is why I just don't think GW selling Primaris and Old marines in tandem is sustainable. They immediately and irrecoverably age the old marines through a vast visual jump not seen in any of the previous evolutions of the Space Marine. And that statement comes from a pair of hobbyist eyes that have been watching things for 25 years. I wonder how the new blood, the future customers that will come to form the base of the hobby, will view the Old marines...

[D3L]

 

Quite simply to make you buy more marines.

 

It's never been more nuanced than this.

You may be right for the "collector" type hobbyists.   But what of the gamers?

 

The box set was of good value.  I got that.  If the rules continue to look like they do now, there is no way i'll spend another cent on Primaris. There's no need.  They know good rules shift models.  So, it has to be more than this. 

 

again, it doesn't get more nuanced than selling marines

 

the gaming aspect is a convenient vehicle to shift plastic, but it's not a business driver, points proven by emulating  AoS, it's a simple design ethos which has minor overheads and little need for details

 

all this allows them to focus more investment in models, and how do you sell again to your captive audience? sell them the same thing, again, but tweaked

 

ta dah, 

 

Primaris Marines, move over normal-startes, you definitely need these big-bad-super boys, because there are no more ultramarines and blood angels (standard size), etc  in the current timeline

 

(cards on table, fully expect the same treatment for the other big 3, DA, SW and GK)

 

so, end game?

 

sell more marines

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by D3L

[Xenith]

 

I think it has more to do with their answer to  "How do we get Space Marine players to buy a whole new Space Marine army?"

 

The answer to that question was the Horus Heresy range.

[derLumpi]

Well, I get the whole point of selling more marines thing. And I also think that this is one goal of GW with the primaris guys that GW has in mind.

 

But this whole thing could also blow up into their faces.

If they replace the SM line with the primaris they will alienate some of the existing SM player base. I take myself as an example - I regularly bought SM (also from other chapters for kitbashing or conversions) stuff for my UM 2nd company. I probably have enough stuff to field the entire 2nd company and 1st company with termies and whatnot. 

With the primaris on the rise I'm considering to stop buying new things for my SM because I don't like the change (more fluffwise - the models are ok). I really hope that there will be more SM players that won't buy primaris and GW will see that they won't sell as much primaris than the old marines (judging from the feedback I've seen and heard it's unlikely but I can still hope). 

 

 We are not the target audience for the Primaris Marines. They may or may not be replacements for our beloved astartes, time will tell however with a keen wit and sense, we can as the veterans make the call we are not being replaced. We are being bolstered both within the game and outwith as for within we are reinforced by these new warriors while outwith we find new young ones come to our fold to fight for and against the light of the Emperor.

 Whether they fight for the Emperor's vision of seek it in tatters, I welcome all. Just be prepared to be ground underneath my treads for I, like all of us here, are the Emperors Angels of Death. We are his sword and WE SHALL KNOW NO FEAR!.

 

That is a nice sentiment, brother! I really like that! :)

[Brother Christopher]

Count me into the 'grumpy camp'. I do not like the introduction of the Primaris and am unable to digest the changes in the fluff which seem cheap to me and, as such, damaging to the setting I like(d). I struggle to see through the premise that the release is simply aimed to boost Marines sales, at the cost of other factions players' and the established setting. And this is my personal preference, but I don't like this.

 

Think about A Game of Thrones and the Valyrian steel, a rare and precious resource, and imagine that there's a Maester Belasarious who says 'Well, you know, I've been stockpiling a collection of Primaris Valyrian blades for the last 100 years. They are better and stuff. I will be supplying the Watch with these now.' This would be cheap device that would take away much of the tension, wouldn't it? The addition of Primaris is as awkward this.

 

The biggest problem I have is that the new models are new and I like them because of this. However, I am not buying any for the time because the models currently available are, to me, an apparent money grab and there will be 'better', multi-part models in the near future (and probably some chapter-specific ones, too).

 

So, while I have nothing against people who like the Primaris Marines, I would actually like to see the new range not be a huge success. Just to entertain the evil part of me and see something backfire on GW. Still, I am sure this will not happen, as there appear to be more advantages than disadvantages to the new Marines. They are very appealing, with their altered aesthetics and better proportions. What remains to be seen is whether (or 'when') GW will phase the true Astartes out.

 

Oh, why oh why couldn't the Primaris simply be a new armour mark?

[Bloody Legionnaire]

So, here is my big issue with "Primaris Marines will replace an invalidate legacy marines" mindset that so many have.. 

 

In order for that to happen 99% of the Legacy SM line needs to go away and I don't know how well that has been considered. Land Raiders, Drop Pods, Storm Ravens, Rhino's.. etc, Primaris Marines have no access to. It will almost mean all of those new Deathwatch minis.. gone, the new corvus, gone. I do not see GW coming up with replacements for all of those and does anyone else really? I also don't see GW coming up with "true scale" or Primaris sized Thunder Wolf Cavalry for Primaris sized Space Wolves to ride on. 

 

Personally, I am fully taking GW at face value on this. IMO the new (lacking) for Primaris Marines makes sense to me.. They are reinforcements for Space Marines... not replacements and they fit a niche.. a requirement the imperium needs right now. I do agree that some of you have a good argument when it comes to the parallels of the Stormcasts and Primaris and how it appears GW is releasing them. I just disagree with you because of everything I already mentioned. 

 

Now, we all need to get on the same page when it comes to legacy Marines because all the old marines are not even on the same scale with each other as it is. Comparing the new MKIII Marines to my SW models I get some of the same sentiments I really don't think they look very good next to each other. In the past 2 years GW has been coming out with much better SM minis than the ones I would consider old being a newer Warhammer 40k gamer. So that's a little harder of an argument for me to consider. 

I'm not that concerned either way as I have been a lot more invested and interested in the HH and 30k as a game than 40k here lately. Maybe 8th will have some really good changes.. I guess we'll see. 

[The Yncarne]

I largely agree with Brightstar's post regarding the short term plan with primaris.

 

I also agree with Morticon that the roll out of primaris has been poorly handled. It Is one of the few supporting scenarios for people that claim GW doesn't have a traditional marketing unit.

 

I firmly believe the future of marines are primaris. Take a look at the rule book. Nearly all pics are primaris; nearly the only time you see an oldmarine is in the overleaf type spreads.

 

I expect.GW to give lip service to oldmarines until primaris line is self sufficient. That is primaries line has trademark-able names, transports, fliers, dreads, and tanks unique to primaris are done. Then lip service will go away. I also expect "Legions 2.0" as the primaris force org. IOW, no codex Astarte for them.

 

Morticon, I'm not sure why the rules for primaris are currently naff. I suspect once more primaries units are revealed the primaris will be more of an "army" rather than a few units different from oldmarines. I chalk up the current rules/points confusion to typical GW playtest quality combined with them not being a standalone force.

 

Again, totally expect GW to merge factions and aesthetics for the same reason as Brighstar above. It is why I won't buy any more oldmarines. I have 3-4 Xenia armies I can play until primaris line is (more) complete.

 

Edit: phone auto correct shenanigans

Edited July 5, 2017 by The Blood Raven

[KBA]

Anyone else catch the new Space Marine Codex cover art? Not a single Old Marine to be seen.

[deathspectersgt7]

Yeah just posers on the cover.

[AGPO]

To be honest I won't worry about the rules until I've seen a full codex. The index books were get you by lists and therefore only featured the units as presented in the box, not their final options. It also wouldn't be the first time a new unit came out under or over costed. Long term I daresay that any new releases will be for Primaris unless the first kits truly bomb. Scale creep for classic marines can come later since I daresay they're not going to scrap iconic units like terminator entirely.

 

I've still got a few of my RTB01 marines kicking about, plus the metals from 2nd/early third ed and scale creep on marines is nothing new. What *is* different is how saturated the range is now. Replacing everything with upscaled models all at once would be impossible. I can accept primaris being a different scale to my regular marines more easily than I can having one tactical squad a foot taller than their counterparts. I'd expect classic marines to fill tactical niches until the Primaris range has matured.

 

The same thing happened with age of sigmar. Old ranges still exist but they're not getting any updates unless they fit into the new visual. The newer armies are gradually reaching maturity and getting bulked out accordingly.

[chapter master 454]

Anyone else catch the new Space Marine Codex cover art? Not a single Old Marine to be seen.

 

Anyone else seen the last 4 codex covers of space marines? All ultramarines, GW are not going to support niche chapters like raven guard and phase out those older models and unique armour pads they sell.

 

Oh wait.

 

Cover means nothing other than nice fresh art that looks sweet. Personally still fond of the one with Calgar holding a defense against tyranids. Though not going to lie, still have a 3rd edition codex around and that still gets me. (also still have boxes of the old mega force still laying around: the one with land raider, terminators, dreadnought and assault marines).

 

Like I mentioned, these are reinforcements and to be honest if GW suddenly said 'no more old marines, only astartes' then the old marine models just become primaris because then at that point all marines we know are primaris marines and when all are primaris no-one is. They can't kill off old marines because old marines can just become new marines with counts as very nicely. Sort of like how people can still use old terminators on their old bases and necrons can still use their vintage models too.

 

Just enjoy the new models because not going to lie, they do look sweet.

[Caboosegg]

i fully expect gw to support old marines the same way they have supported Empire in AoS

 

aka we will get base rules and the codex but no new models that are not HH or already in production and id expect and new campaign books to be Primus.

 

 

alot of the marine base range will still stay maybe become webstore but it is HH compatiably a popular setting that is Primus free.