Allied Factions: Discussion on running "Imperium" faction

[Aothaine]

Hey everyone,

 

So I was running around on some different forums and started to notice a really common trend. The Imperium factions are amazing all around. They all specialize in different areas and can group together and still be considered battle forged "Imperium". 

 

This has led me to wonder. How necessary is it to run a pure army rather than what you might see on a battle field. Many of the stories have Space Marines coming in to help various other factions of the Imperium or other factions helping out the Space Marines.

 

As I explore deeper into the competitive area of 40k I am learning more and more. I am currently at the point now where mixing factions is the way to go. Having an entire force of Space Marines does look really good. But as we have been discussing in other threads here on the BA forum we are running into problems when it comes to assaulting and picking out targets. This is mainly due to the expensive cost of all of our favorite boys.

 

So, I have come to the conclusion that melee is really good but alpha strike lists are going to be incredibly powerful with the new rules and started to look into armies that could alpha strike really well. I came across Militarum Tempestus. These guys hit on 3+, have an amazing armory and are super cheap.

 

Check this link out to view some of the options that I, and others, have thought up so far http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335886-militarium-tempestus-wants-you/?p=4808098

 

Now, you may wonder why I am posting this here. It seems that Militarum Tempestus are fine without us. As I look more into it they can hold their own but it is difficult. They are better designed to alpha in and blow up as much as they can. They do this for under 1000 points in all variants. 

 

So, I thought about who would be the best at holding lines and objectives and I could think of nothing quite as good as Space Marines. Perhaps even Primaris Marines. With the Scions doing their alpha it should put the opponent on the back foot allowing the space marines to get into position to charge from razorbacks/rhinos or setup defensive positions on objectives.

 

We need to remember that Objectives always trump killing an enemy unit. Focus on how to win the game. Tabling the opponent is a mind set from older editions and should be nearly impossible in 8th ed. Focus Objectives!

 

Allying in the Militarum Tempestus is just one of a slew of options we as Imperium players have available to us. There is absolutely no reason we should not be taking advantage of available resources.

 

I'm even thinking about how to add an assassin into my lists now. As well as other options. I'm really starting to appreciate 8th ed for what it is. These indexes are showing me that different factions are just puzzle pieces to the puzzle that is the Imperium.

 

Glad I didn't decide on T'au or another Xenos faction now. The shear number of options we as Imperium players have is boggling.

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

It seems they'll be doing what thry did with Age of Sigmar though, in that they'll release codices that require all detachments to have the same army-specific key word to gain the benefits. So we might be able to take a min-n-match "Imperium" army, and gain variety and choice but if we want relics, for example, it'd be Blood Angels only, to make up for the limited choices.

[Charlo]

Aye, were in a big imperium super friends situation now, but once those codexes come out it'll be less favourable to mix.

 

We won't have access to unique strategems for the particular faction, we may not even have relic access.

 

I'm even willing to bet marines might not get chapter tactics.

[Karhedron]

I do rather like throwing a Knight into the mix. After all, who doesn't love a baby Titan stomping around behind the descending angels?

[DemonGSides]

I love the idea of a mixed arms army that the Imperium SHOULD be.  I've heavily considered grabbing a box or two of Guard to be in my Troops Slot, A valkyrie for Air Support, and have the Elites/Fast Attack all be Space Marines units.  H

[Aothaine]

I love the idea of a mixed arms army that the Imperium SHOULD be.  I've heavily considered grabbing a box or two of Guard to be in my Troops Slot, A valkyrie for Air Support, and have the Elites/Fast Attack all be Space Marines units.  H

 

We'll find out how this will work when the codices release. I'm hoping they still let us mix factions.

[Brother_Angelus]

 

I love the idea of a mixed arms army that the Imperium SHOULD be.  I've heavily considered grabbing a box or two of Guard to be in my Troops Slot, A valkyrie for Air Support, and have the Elites/Fast Attack all be Space Marines units.  H

 

We'll find out how this will work when the codices release. I'm hoping they still let us mix factions.

 

As above, it'll likely be allowed, as it is in AoS but you'll miss out on the juiciest warlord traits and artifacts for mixing. It's not neccesarily the end of the world, as some AoS factions actually function better with the generic 'grand alliance' traits and gear, but some armies need the purity to get their best stuff. We'll see what happens in the codices.

[The Unseen]

Hmm.

Since it doesn't seem like BA will be getting a codex soon, mixing is probably going to remain our best bet for awhile.

 

*plans to build allied section of DKoK intensify*

[Charlo]

I do wonder when we will get our dex.

 

The first ones coming out make sense; Marines will end their release cycle first and then be left for a while. Generic Chaos Marines probably have no new models planned so they can pump it out now and add the legion flavour (before the internet explodes), Grey Knights again won't have any new releases so they can shift that out too. Death Guard are the new hotness so they'll have a codex to cover all of the new models.

 

Maybe we'll get it down the line with some new model releases? Specific Primaris maybe?

 

My only worry is that according to the FAQ on codexes we will continue to use the index; this includes any units that will be in the marine codex - so if any points adjustments happen they aren't included for us. Also means we carry on without any sort of chapter tactics too...

[Thoridon]

My only worry is that according to the FAQ on codexes we will continue to use the index; this includes any units that will be in the marine codex - so if any points adjustments happen they aren't included for us. Also means we carry on without any sort of chapter tactics too...

 

With the points they should publish an errata/FAQ to use any new points values for the relevant units, as they said they want to keep updating the values in 8th. They did for the difference between some Primaris stuff between Dark Imperium and the Index at least.

[Aothaine]

I do wonder when we will get our dex.

 

The first ones coming out make sense; Marines will end their release cycle first and then be left for a while. Generic Chaos Marines probably have no new models planned so they can pump it out now and add the legion flavour (before the internet explodes), Grey Knights again won't have any new releases so they can shift that out too. Death Guard are the new hotness so they'll have a codex to cover all of the new models.

 

Maybe we'll get it down the line with some new model releases? Specific Primaris maybe?

 

My only worry is that according to the FAQ on codexes we will continue to use the index; this includes any units that will be in the marine codex - so if any points adjustments happen they aren't included for us. Also means we carry on without any sort of chapter tactics too...

 

I both worry and don't worry about it. Regardless we will need the Space Marines codex. It will have a lot of the updates we need. I don't mind at all though. I'm totally grabbing the collector's edition if I can. 

 

But we'll be using two books for awhile and I don't want to pressure GW to much to release early. I like the idea of us having time to bounce ideas off of them. Speaking of which I will be sending them the first draft of the requested changes to Blood Angels document later tonight. I'll also inform them it is a living document and we will update regularly.

[Karhedron]

But we'll be using two books for awhile and I don't want to pressure GW to much to release early. I like the idea of us having time to bounce ideas off of them. Speaking of which I will be sending them the first draft of the requested changes to Blood Angels document later tonight. I'll also inform them it is a living document and we will update regularly.

Where are you sending the details? I have some Eldar suggestions I would like to make.

[Aothaine]

I'm posting on Warhammer facebook. https://www.facebook.com/Warhammer-40000-1575682476085719/

Edited July 7, 2017 by Aothaine

[Helias_Tancred]

As a fluff player there are factions I would mix with, and clearly those I wouldn't. SO BRING ON THE NECRONS!! 

 

lol jk.

 

The Adeptus Mechanicum make good allies, the Getting Started AD box is actually one of the best given what you get in it. Also Imperial Guard would be great too! I would not ally my Blood Angels with any Xenos. Personally I'm a huge Space Marine fan, and while Blood Angels are my #1 favorites I also have a healthy amount of love for Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Ultramarines, and Raven Guard. In the past I've thought seriously of building an allied force of from those chapters to fight with my Blood Angels?

 

Going forward, especially how much my reading has marine chapters working with Imperial Guard in story after story, that may be the coolest allied force or "mix" to run with our Angels?

I like the Grey Knights a bunch and in 8th they bring some good stuff to the field, but I have 0 love for the Inquisition. Like Xenos, they are simply not a choice for me.

[LutherMax]

I think it might finally be time to get some of my Skitarii finished. I also have some Deathwatch but haven't looked into them in 8th.

 

@ Aothaine what is the requested changes document of which you speak?

[Charlo]

 

 

I do wonder when we will get our dex.

 

The first ones coming out make sense; Marines will end their release cycle first and then be left for a while. Generic Chaos Marines probably have no new models planned so they can pump it out now and add the legion flavour (before the internet explodes), Grey Knights again won't have any new releases so they can shift that out too. Death Guard are the new hotness so they'll have a codex to cover all of the new models.

 

Maybe we'll get it down the line with some new model releases? Specific Primaris maybe?

 

My only worry is that according to the FAQ on codexes we will continue to use the index; this includes any units that will be in the marine codex - so if any points adjustments happen they aren't included for us. Also means we carry on without any sort of chapter tactics too...

I both worry and don't worry about it. Regardless we will need the Space Marines codex. It will have a lot of the updates we need.

As I said earlier, the Marine codex is totally irrelevant to us and we will be using the index, as said on the WHC article.

 

Sadly.

[Thoridon]

I've always collected mixed Imperial units so 8th is brilliant for me. I don't mix 'n match to exploit anything, and I've never built cross-faction 'death stars', but I like to run different factions with different themes.

 

Blood Angels: Fast, chargey, jumpy. Jump Packs all over the place and an emphasis on getting into combat. Characters all having a JP where possible for rapid support.

Imperial Guard: Boots and Guns. Lots of infantry with artillery and tank support.

Space Wolves: In progress, but will be a slightly different assault theme. Cavalry instead of jump packs, plus infantry being dropped off by transport to assault.

Codex: Also in progress, but will be shooty rather than chargey. Devastators, Tanks, long-ranged Dreads etc. I will have a unit of TH/SS running with Lysander in a Fists detachment, and if I grab Calgar he'd probably get a melee unit to accompany him too in an Ultramarines detachment.

Other: Custodians to follow/protect Gulliman, Sisters as a small detachment, an Assassin or two.

 

Rather than mix my BA and Codex units as "red marines" I like them having separate identities. Sure, they can't buff each other, but I like to play thematically. It also helps make sure every game is different as I take different factions/detachments rather than just playing a certain list.

 

By taking a Codex chapter longside my BA I can put any units there which don't fit here, such as the LS Storm. It also lets me keep each faction/detachment having a different feel and approach, rather than just being the same thing in a different colour.

 

For Battleforged games maybe I'll run an Imperial or Astartes detachment, maybe I'll keep them faction-specific. It's nice either way to have some units like the Codex Librarian having powers working on Astartes rather than Chapter.

 

From an effectiveness point of view I think Guard/Tempestus would make a good ally. We can put some great assault units together, and flier/vehicle support like any chapter (Stormraven / Razorback) but we can easily end up with a small number of bodies. Having some Guard to add board presence and cheaper plasma/melta deep strikers in the form of Scions could be a useful addition to an assault-focused BA force.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Thoridon

[Quixus]

It seems they'll be doing what thry did with Age of Sigmar though, in that they'll release codices that require all detachments to have the same army-specific key word to gain the benefits. So we might be able to take a min-n-match "Imperium" army, and gain variety and choice but if we want relics, for example, it'd be Blood Angels only, to make up for the limited choices.

Isn't that what multiple detachments are for? Most can be built with a few as 4 units. Or is AoS restricting access to relics army wide?

Edited July 8, 2017 by Quixus

[Aothaine]

 

It seems they'll be doing what thry did with Age of Sigmar though, in that they'll release codices that require all detachments to have the same army-specific key word to gain the benefits. So we might be able to take a min-n-match "Imperium" army, and gain variety and choice but if we want relics, for example, it'd be Blood Angels only, to make up for the limited choices.

Isn't that what multiple detachments are for? Most can be built with a few as 4 units. Or is AoS restricting access to relics army wide?

 

 

Pretty sure AoS is army wide. Your entire army has to be of the faction to gain the bonuses.

 

I just wonder if those bonuses are going to be worth it to not run Imperium.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Aothaine

[Charlo]

The way they were talking at Warhammer fest heavily implied that it's on a detachment per detachment basis.

 

So essentially:

Command points are army wide

Generic strategems are army wide

Can use specific strategems with a detachment if the detachment is entirely one faction

 

Though they may limit it in future to stop all out Imperial super friends.

[Sun Reaver]

On the topic of an Imperium detachment, you could technically take a flyer detachment with a storm raven, nephilim jetfighter, and a corvus blackstar right? 

 

My meta has everyone spamming storm ravens so it might be beneficial to run other flyers alongside them? 

[Charlo]

You can indeed.

 

All IMPERIUM baby.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

It seems they'll be doing what thry did with Age of Sigmar though, in that they'll release codices that require all detachments to have the same army-specific key word to gain the benefits. So we might be able to take a min-n-match "Imperium" army, and gain variety and choice but if we want relics, for example, it'd be Blood Angels only, to make up for the limited choices.

Isn't that what multiple detachments are for? Most can be built with a few as 4 units. Or is AoS restricting access to relics army wide?

 

 

Pretty sure AoS is army wide. Your entire army has to be of the faction to gain the bonuses.

 

I just wonder if those bonuses are going to be worth it to not run Imperium.

 

 

AoS ones are army wide but not a good comparison. AoS doesn't have detachments and all the current 8th ed rules are per detachment not per army.

 

 

On the topic of an Imperium detachment, you could technically take a flyer detachment with a storm raven, nephilim jetfighter, and a corvus blackstar right? 

 

My meta has everyone spamming storm ravens so it might be beneficial to run other flyers alongside them? 

 

You can but it would be rubbish compared to Guiliman and Storm Ravens or Samael and Dark Talons/Nephilims. With the Raven/Blackstar you're also shooting yourself in the foot regarding transport capacity.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Closet Skeleton